Conservapedia talk:Blocking policy

• Conservapedia talk:Blocking policy/Archive1

Drop down lists

Discussion moved from here

How would the drop down lists be edited? It should also contain 1 year and 2 year blocks, I think. It's a b ig spread from 6 mos to 5 years. Other changes on the lists also need to be considered. Rob Smith 18:59, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

I've never dealt with the drop down lists to be honest - but I'm certain they can be edited. I'll attempt to research this and get back to you very shortly.--IDuan 22:46, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

Found it! MediaWiki:Ipboptions.--IDuan 22:58, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

How is those pages don't have page protect? Rob Smith 23:02, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

They're protected for me sir! Mediawiki pages might be protected by default? (That's just a guess, though.)--IDuan 23:04, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

What about the link for the blocking Reason? Rob Smith 23:19, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

MediaWiki:Ipbreason-dropdown --IDuan 23:21, 14 July 2011 (EDT)

Let me know if you can edit MediaWiki talk:Ipbreason-dropdown; I propose we begin with this [1] list of offenses, even then, some need to be reviewed/merged/clarified. I'm going to begin inserting them at Conservapedia:Blocking policy. Rob Smith 19:19, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

I can not edit that page - it was actually protected by TK here. I'm in favor of starting with that list. Sounds good!--IDuan 15:26, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Should be working now. I got a limited protect on it. Rob Smith 15:41, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

Are we gonna move this into the mainspace? I think it's more concise and up-to-date than the current version.--IDuan 20:40, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

5 year blocks

Item #3, Obvious vandals who have been blocked indefinitely (or for 5 years) should have their user and user talk pages deleted , is one where we've had some serious problems with. Users with consrtuctive careers, but who have taken hiatus or retired for POV reasons, have had their pages deleted by sysops as a form of payback for past disagreements. None of this has created a healthy environment. A sysop should not be looking for a reason to block someone for 5 years so they can retaliate by deleting their page. All this, I'm sorry to say, has happened in the past. And if a user is blocked for 5 years, what's to stop them from coming back as a good faith editor in 5 years after a period of rehab, to find their page deleted. What then? They may as well create a new user account under a different name rather than go through the ordeal of asking a sysop to undelete, which only raises suspicion, and has them targeted all over again as a problem editor. So why wait 5 years? They may as well sockpuppet now then deal with the hassle. Only now they have a chip on their shoulder for having their user account deleted and recognition besmirched for their positive contributions. Is there a housekeeping reason a temporary blocked editor should have their account deleted? Rob Smith 21:40, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

<-Another way of looking at it. User:A, with extensive mainspace contributions, is blocked or 5 years as a retalitory tactic for un ugly disagreement with a sysop. Their account is deleted. User:A does not edit for 5 years, comes back in 5 years as a good faith editor, but is afraid to ask to have his account undeleted so he can get full recogition for his positive contributions. User:A creates a new account under a different username. Techncally, this could be seen as a violation of CP rules against multiple accounts, despite his block having expired and the editor's return as a user in good standing. Rob Smith 21:56, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

I must admit I'm slightly confused just about your interpretation. What I've written (as you accurately quote it) is "obvious vandals who have been blocked indefinitely (or for 5 years)..." ... therefor non "obvious vandal" users who have been blocked for 5 years would not be subject to page deletion. I agree that it's a de facto problem - you're absolutely right - I'm just pointing out that it's not what I've written. I think the important thing is making clear that situations like the one you describe should not happen. No one should be blocked as a retaliatory tactic. Perhaps this should be explicitly stated. I shall work on that--IDuan 22:51, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Yes, but it's the same sysop who hands out the 5 year block & deletes the page. If this is to be retained, it should include language such as, "vandals who have been blocked indefinitely (or for 5 years) after a review process may be subject to having their user and user talk pages deleted", but nobodies given a reason for deleting the page, to my knowledge. Rob Smith 23:08, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

OH now I understand. I'm certainly fine with removing it; to be honest I'm not sure if it really does much harm (if a sysop disagrees with the block he can always restore the user and user talk pages), but besides for saving a modicum of space I don't think there was ever any reason for deleted the pages. I have no opinion as to whether its kept or not.--IDuan 23:14, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Rob, for those of us who are not admins, it's really hard for us to opine. I do know that Wikipedia does indefinite blocks for user accounts, but might block an IP for a short set time. The only comment I would have is that the blocking rules be predefined, but it seems like it is already here. If people get blocked for a liberal point of view (I don't check the block log so I wouldn't know), I would think here that's fair game. HP 23:23, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

People get blocked for registering accounts here and never making an edit. Rob Smith 23:27, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Not often. It can happen in some circumstances, but it's not routine.--Andy Schlafly 23:33, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Yes there may be a need to block a sock-plant that's been inactive and never used over time, but I've seen too many user accounts blocked minutes after being created. It can be because someone isn't using checkuser properly, or there's just a controversy in the air and someone doesn't want to deal with questions about it. If good faith is expected of users, good faith should be exhibited by sysops by not being suspicious of every new acount registered. Rob Smith 23:46, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

To my mind the only situation where such a block would be acceptable would be a username-related offense, in which case obviously the IP should not be blocked. (update: and sockpuppets)--IDuan 23:43, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

The failue to use first name & last initial should not be a blockable offense, IMO; and the guidelines themselves say "encouraged" or "recommended". Rob Smith 23:51, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

I think generally that block reason hasn't been used in a strict sense, but rather only when usernames are offensive or potentially offensive. But I agree.--IDuan 23:54, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

We need to consider shorter block times in general, and maybe order the current list by severity. Sockpuppetry and vandalism are most definitely not in the same league as edit warring and 90/10.

Especially 90/10 (even more so in the current "It's called 90/10, but the numbers don't actually matter" interpretation) is little more than an easy escape hatch from a debate a sysop might end up losing, so there needs to be some sort of balance to it. (More on balance later, perhaps. It's an important topic, but also a more global long shot.)

Some people need to keep in mind that we need to build a community. That doesn't mean blindly accepting anybody, but it also doesn't mean giving five-year-blocks to people who point out that you made a mistake. My very presence here shows that things are moving in a better direction, so let's hammer out a way to distinguish between blocking (months/years for vandalism) and nudging (hours, days to cool down). --Sid 3050 08:03, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Thank you Sid for your positive input, hope to hear more. One problem is a mindset that everything Wikipedia does is wrong. While that may be true in article content policy, Conservapedia needs to learn it can gain much from Wikipedia's experience dealing with vandalism and sockpuppetry. Blocking & Checkuser are not the magic panaceas some people imagine; if an angry editor wants to be heard, they will find a way to get in and only make the sysop and whole project look foolish for thinking they can enforce unenforceable rules. As Sid alluded to, it's easier to build a balanced and civil community with a healthy tolerance of diverse views, and persuade people to positively contribute by example, than constant sniping in a war the project cannot win. Rob Smith 12:44, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Infinite blocks

Infinite blocks are disfavored, for several reasons, including how some people move from being liberal to conservative -- more often than other liberals admit.--Andy Schlafly 23:35, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Agreed. Redemption should be a possibility. This should be reflected in the blocking policy - or at Conservapedia:New sysop training page (which is being worked on here - where I've changed the language to say "Keep in mind that users can change - infinite blocks are therefore discouraged.")--IDuan 23:45, 18 July 2011 (EDT)

Parody

I'd rename this section to something like "Mocking" because the real problem of "parody" (in the sense that some people in CP's history were "parodists") by far exceeds this description and is the result of deeper problems within the site itself. So let's avoid confusion. --Sid 3050 07:31, 19 July 2011 (EDT)

Proposed Actions

Here is something I put together quickly:

Blockable offenses Here are the actions which can get one's account blocked. The block comment should state clearly what the reason was.

• Vandalism. True vandalism is easy to spot and is utterly unmistakable. A glance at "recent changes" will often show someone creating an account and then going through as many pages as possible (until someone stops them) doing things like blanking the page, changing it to 100 repetitions of some crude anatomical reference, foul language, insults against other users etc. The tolerance for this is absolutely zero. Such a person will be blocked with no possibility of appeal.
  • Proposed Action: 5 year ban.
• Parody. This is often easy to spot, but sometimes is quite subtle. Obvious cases involve altering an article in such a way as to make the article, and by extension - Conservapedia, an object of ridicule. It is sometimes done for ideological reasons, and sometimes for one's "15 minutes of fame"—there is an allure to the idea of typing something at one's computer that the whole world will see, an allure that sometimes affects people totally lacking in common sense. Vandalism and parody are problems for all wikis. Clear parody is treated the same as vandalism. Other cases are harder to judge, and may require serious editorial intervention and discussion.
  • Proposed Action: 1 - 5 yeah block depending on severity and reason for parody. Initial cases where it may be accidental such as a user "trying too hard" or just wanting to fit in should be discussed with user first and warned.
• Edit warring. When people disagree on content, they should try to work out their differences on the talk page. Just reverting each other's changes repeatedly does no good, and can lead to a temporary block if it distracts people from doing real work.
  • Proposed Action: Sysop warning first followed by short blocks, starting at 1 - 7 days and increasing if behavior isn't amended.
• Personal remarks. We do not look kindly on personal insults directed at other contributors. You should be able to disagree on content without being personally insulting.
  • Proposed Action: Staggered lengths from 1 week for minor infractions to infiniate for continued and/or foul and obscene commments and Intimidating behavior/harassment
• Removing content from pages without discussion. We take a dim view of the plain removal of information; it smacks of censorship. Try to find a way of incorporating the other person's viewpoint into the article. When necessary, discuss on the talk page.
  • Proposed Action: See edit warring. Similar situation.
• Inserting false information.
  • Proposed Action: See parody
• Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages.
  • Proposed Action: See parody
• Spamming links to external sites. This is a problem on many wikis. Some people view a wiki as just a vehicle for increasing the visibility of their own external web site, whether it be hawking crackpot scientific theories, herbal supplements, or whatever. It is strictly forbidden.
  • Proposed Action: Dependent on site spammed. For minor/accidental case a warning should suffice. Pornographic and continued flagrant spamming should be treated as vandalism
• Sockpuppetry. We do not allow use of multiple accounts for the purpose of evading blocks or making one's point of view appear to be more widely held than it is. There are mechanisms for appealing blocks, involving email or requests on the blocking sysop's talk page.
  • Proposed Action: Immediate ban of sock and explanation required of sock-puppeteer. ban will be based on severity of action and explanation. Lengths should start low and get longer if more socks are created.
• Inappropriate user name. It has been a general principle that one's user name be "based on one's real first name and last initial", though there are a number of reasons why that is not always practical. The point is that we don't like the kind of foolish "handles" that are often used in various blogs and social web sites. If you run afoul of this by accident, you will be asked to create a new account, and doing so will not be considered sockpuppetry. Of course, some user names are essentially just vandalism, and are treated that way.
  • Proposed Action: infiniate block (without "account creation disabled" ticked with message "pick a new name"
• 90/10 rule violation. This rule is something of a Conservapedia tradition. The objective is to avoid combative arguments. While an actual numerical check could be used, the usual application of the rule at present is a more subjective analysis of whether one is here just for engaging in combat. Remember, Conservapedia is a meritocracy, and an editor's contributions to mainspace weigh in the balance more in granting user rights than occuping other editors time in fruitless talk page discussion.
  • Proposed Action: Dependent on severity but start very low as new users need get used to this as it differs from most other wiki's

Let me know what you think. MaxFletcher 23:54, 27 July 2011 (EDT)

Your list of blockable offenses is pretty good, but I would like to suggest that we be simultaneously more gentle and more strict. Are you familiar with what Wikipedia cofounder Larry Sanger did at Citizendium?

First of all, they only let college grads (or well qualified grownups) contribute, and they ask everyone to use their real name (initial + last name is too easy to fake). They don't allow pseudonyms unless there is a well founded risk of persecution or whistleblowing retaliation (which is actually extremely rare).

Secondly, they just email a violator privately, if they think the offense is based on misunderstanding or overlooking a rule. A second offense after a private warning is an instant, permanent ban. Or an obvious, deliberate first offense.

This project is different, in that many contributors are kids who are still in school. So we may need to more patient. But we should also be strict. It hurts the project tremendously to let basic civility be undermined. Serious authors and experts will continue to stay away, as long as we fail to make this a congenial place for volunteers.

Another difference is the ongoing flood of users who sign up only to undermine the project. They are well organized, determined, ideologically motivated and possibly even financed. We need a policy which is friendly to the sincere newbie, but also capable of swiftly weeding out the infiltrators.

Telling the truth and speaking cordially - these are not difficult or strange values. I suggest we limit participation in our project only to those who already understand and support them. --Ed Poor ^Talk 13:17, 16 August 2011 (EDT)

Off-wiki harm

I don't know if this has ever happened here, but I have seen cases on WP where editors either 1) publish personal information of other editors or 2) attempt to cause real-life harm via employer contact, etc. A set policy might be a good idea, just in case. --SharonW 23:50, 28 July 2011 (EDT)

Yes, this is very important area which needs to be addressed; right now we need to end the arbitrary blocking and deletion of discussion of editors whose experience may be useful on this extremely important subject. Rob Smith 15:35, 29 July 2011 (EDT)

Intro

Under this definition, Liberal censorship and trolling are virtually the same things. It is the site owner's intention to make the view expressed in the mainspace article on liberal censorship the core of CP's blocking policy. Liberal censorship, it appears, applies both to article mainspace and discussion pages. Although Conservapedia does not block on ideological grounds, nor is an ideological litmus required for active users, it is ultimately the behavior of the user that is judged in issuing blocks. Redundant arguments for the liberal point of view, or mainspace contributions that run counter to a conservative, Christian, family-friendly educational resource, is trolling. Rob Smith 00:02, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

It is a bit of a slippery slope because I might make raise arguments about a pages contents and be blocked for trolling under the "arguments for the liberal point of view". The 9/10 rule should be used as opposed to trolling. MaxFletcher 00:04, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

Well, that's virtually the same thing. The key phrase is, "redundant arguments". I'm more concerned about sysops who block people because they are liberal, or obese, or atheists, than because they made repeated pitches for some obese liberal apologetics after it was established criticism of obesity is Christian and family friendly (this is just an example). Rob Smith 00:12, 5 August 2011 (EDT)

Illustration

In a case from recent memory User:C blocked User:BS as a "parodist." When asked for evidence to justify the block under CP policy, User:C provided none. User:C made a lengthy argument that User:BS, who had several "I am a Christian" userboxes in CP, was allegedy another User:SC at RW 2.0. User:SC at RW 2.0 had several "this user is an atheist" userboxes at that website. With no evidence or explanation, User:C concluded that User:BS "had lied" at CP, and was a parodist. No mainspace or discussion page examples of parody were provided by User:C when asked. No evidence was produced to validate the claim that User:SC at RW 2.0 was indeed CP contributor User:BS. And no evidence was produced to support either claim the User:BS was either an atheist or a Christian, despite the fact CP does not have an ideological litmus test to register an account or contribute.

Conservapedia:How_Conservapedia_Differs_from_Wikipedia specifically states,

• 11.We respect users' control over their own talk pages as much as possible. Wikipedia treats users' own talk pages like government or public property, and it becomes a place for Wikipedia editors to bully users.
• 15.We do not ban users based on their comments elsewhere, such as on their own blog. Wikipedia will monitor users' blogs and ban them for their exercise of free speech on their own blogs.

Conservapedia:Guidelines#Duties specifically sates,

• Unlike Wikipedia, we do not block for ideological reasons.

So, User:BS was blocked, evidently, for ideological views he expressed on another site, assuming the two are the same person. Rob Smith 14:11, 6 August 2011 (EDT)