Difference between revisions of "Talk:Secular Europe"

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m (Essay: About a debate challenge to an atheist I extended debate offers to the atheists/agnostics Penn Jillette and Kyle Kulinski and predictably they cowardly declined (see: Conservapedia's challenge to atheist Penn Jillette and Debate challenge to new a)
 
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Essay: About a debate challenge to an atheist
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Shouldn't we note any Catholic increases? While I'm glad that at least some part of Christianity is increasing in Europe, I do think we should also give some focus on Catholicism's impact rather than just the Protestant sects. [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] 09:42, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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:In the past I think I may have read that Catholicism is shrinking in Europe in fairly recent times. You are welcome to do research on this matter. This [http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf doc] may have some information for you as I recall he made a distinction between the fertility rates of religious Catholics vs. moderately/nominally religious Catholics. It is 70 pages long and I have some competing priorities to attend to, but you are welcome to update the article if you can support your material. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:05, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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::The other issue is that the Roman Catholic Church body of believers may become more religious/conservative if it grows faster in the third world and this may long term affect the theology of Catholicism due to them having more representation in terms of leadership.  Plus, these third world Roman Catholics could immigrate to Europe.
  
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I extended debate offers to the atheists/agnostics Penn Jillette and Kyle Kulinski and predictably they cowardly declined (see: Conservapedia's challenge to atheist Penn Jillette and Debate challenge to new atheist Kyle Kulinski and New Atheist Kyle Kulinski defeated).
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::This process seems to be occurring in Methodism as its cohort of developing world believers have more and more influence within Methodism. For example, the religious conservatives in the developing world affected Methodist policy/theology in relation to the homosexuality issue. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 10:17, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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:::I did a little bit of additional research and found [http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/02/11/world/europe/the-catholic-church-shifted-southward-over-the-past-century.html?_r=0 THIS], but I don't have any future projections in terms of European Catholicism based on demography/immigration projections. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:09, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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::::Just found this 2013 Washington Post article about Roman Catholicism: "<big>'''With the [Roman Catholic] church declining in its former stronghold of Europe'''</big> but finding its future in Latin America, Africa and Asia, pressure already was growing on the College of Cardinals — the global princes of the church — to break tradition by elevating a non-European pope."[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/12/this-map-of-global-catholic-populations-shows-the-churchs-looming-dilemma/] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 11:22, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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:Just so you're aware, there was also a revival of Catholicism last year in Northern Europe, so don't think it's dwindling in Europe. http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/11/29/a-catholic-revival-in-northern-europe/ [[User:Pokeria1|Pokeria1]] ([[User talk:Pokeria1|talk]]) 09:03, 23 November 2015 (EST)
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::OK. I very rarely create content relating to the Roman Catholic Church at this wiki. I don't have much interest in doing that. So if the article is going to be updated, it will probably be done by someone else. The article is pretty much structured country by country as it seems hard to find data for Europe as a whole. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 10:43, 23 November 2015 (EST)
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:::MPR: https://www.thelocal.com/20220726/how-europes-population-is-changing-and-what-the-eu-is-doing-about-it/ [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 12:28, August 23, 2022 (EDT)
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::::Yah, 20 million of Germany's 80 million are from Islam with a higher birth rate. Germany is becoming desecularized. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Ich bin ein breakfast taco]]</sup> 14:21, August 23, 2022 (EDT)
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::::Germany's native born has a sub par replacement level, whereas the 20 million Islamic immigrants have a 5.6 birthrate. Germany will be desecularized in a generation. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|Ich bin ein breakfast taco]]</sup> 14:23, August 23, 2022 (EDT)
  
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Atheists/agnostics displaying cowardice in relation to debate offers is certainly nothing new (see: Atheism and cowardice).
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==Kaufman==
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About a contributor to an atheist website and his failure to meet my debate offer
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I'd be careful using Kaufman, coming from an elite European college. He sounds a lot like the racist EU foreign minister [[Josep Borrell]]:
  
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An atheist website is engaging in historical revisionism about a debate challenge which was issued to them. Of course, this is not surprising given the degree to which atheists have engaged in historical revisionism (see: Atheism and historical revisionism).
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Kaufman: "I argue that 97% of the world's population growth is taking place in the developing world, where 95% of people are religious."
  
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First of all, for the record and setting aside atheist claims to the contrary, I have never made the claim that I am a skilled debater. I have repeatedly stated that debates against atheists are very easily won due to the inherent weakness of atheism (see: Rebuttals to atheist arguments and Atheism and debate). Accordingly, consistently winning in exchanges with atheists is not a significant achievement.
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Borrell:
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{{quotebox-float|"Europe is a garden. The rest of the world… is not exactly a garden. Most of the rest of the world is a jungle, and the jungle could invade the garden. The gardeners should take care of it, but they will not protect the garden by building walls. A nice small garden surrounded by high walls in order to prevent the jungle from coming in is not going to be a solution. Because the jungle has a strong growth capacity, and the wall will never be high enough in order to protect the garden. The gardeners have to go to the jungle. Europeans have to be much more engaged with the rest of the world. Otherwise, the rest of the world will invade us, by different ways and means," and the gardeners must put their [[white privilege|“privilege”]] to positive use. [https://english.almanar.com.lb/1711888]}}
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Second, a contributor of an atheist website (which is still not notable to have a Wikipedia article about it) never properly accepted my debate offer. The debate offer required the obscure atheist who contributes to the atheist website (A website which is often obsessed with Conservapedia and the User: Conservative account) to make a donation to a Christian relief organization. And I required the donation to a Christian relief organization be held by a trustworthy party/organization. An offer of having a relative of the atheist, who falsely claimed to accept my debate offer, holding the funds certainly did not meet this criteria.
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:[[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a chance'']]</sup> 14:07, January 15, 2023 (EST)
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Are the atheists who contribute to this atheist website so desperate for a victory that they feel they have to manufacture a faux victory? I realize that they are frustrated that they cannot find a single factual error in the Conservapedia atheism article, but this pathetic attempt at historical revisionism clearly shows that they lack machismo!
 
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    Essays
 

Latest revision as of 19:09, January 15, 2023

Shouldn't we note any Catholic increases? While I'm glad that at least some part of Christianity is increasing in Europe, I do think we should also give some focus on Catholicism's impact rather than just the Protestant sects. Pokeria1 09:42, 5 November 2014 (EST)

In the past I think I may have read that Catholicism is shrinking in Europe in fairly recent times. You are welcome to do research on this matter. This doc may have some information for you as I recall he made a distinction between the fertility rates of religious Catholics vs. moderately/nominally religious Catholics. It is 70 pages long and I have some competing priorities to attend to, but you are welcome to update the article if you can support your material. Conservative 10:05, 5 November 2014 (EST)
The other issue is that the Roman Catholic Church body of believers may become more religious/conservative if it grows faster in the third world and this may long term affect the theology of Catholicism due to them having more representation in terms of leadership. Plus, these third world Roman Catholics could immigrate to Europe.
This process seems to be occurring in Methodism as its cohort of developing world believers have more and more influence within Methodism. For example, the religious conservatives in the developing world affected Methodist policy/theology in relation to the homosexuality issue. Conservative 10:17, 5 November 2014 (EST)
I did a little bit of additional research and found THIS, but I don't have any future projections in terms of European Catholicism based on demography/immigration projections. Conservative 11:09, 5 November 2014 (EST)
Just found this 2013 Washington Post article about Roman Catholicism: "With the [Roman Catholic] church declining in its former stronghold of Europe but finding its future in Latin America, Africa and Asia, pressure already was growing on the College of Cardinals — the global princes of the church — to break tradition by elevating a non-European pope."[1] Conservative 11:22, 5 November 2014 (EST)
Just so you're aware, there was also a revival of Catholicism last year in Northern Europe, so don't think it's dwindling in Europe. http://www.thecatholicthing.org/2014/11/29/a-catholic-revival-in-northern-europe/ Pokeria1 (talk) 09:03, 23 November 2015 (EST)
OK. I very rarely create content relating to the Roman Catholic Church at this wiki. I don't have much interest in doing that. So if the article is going to be updated, it will probably be done by someone else. The article is pretty much structured country by country as it seems hard to find data for Europe as a whole. Conservative (talk) 10:43, 23 November 2015 (EST)
MPR: https://www.thelocal.com/20220726/how-europes-population-is-changing-and-what-the-eu-is-doing-about-it/ Conservative (talk) 12:28, August 23, 2022 (EDT)
Yah, 20 million of Germany's 80 million are from Islam with a higher birth rate. Germany is becoming desecularized. RobSIch bin ein breakfast taco 14:21, August 23, 2022 (EDT)
Germany's native born has a sub par replacement level, whereas the 20 million Islamic immigrants have a 5.6 birthrate. Germany will be desecularized in a generation. RobSIch bin ein breakfast taco 14:23, August 23, 2022 (EDT)

Kaufman

I'd be careful using Kaufman, coming from an elite European college. He sounds a lot like the racist EU foreign minister Josep Borrell:

Kaufman: "I argue that 97% of the world's population growth is taking place in the developing world, where 95% of people are religious."

Borrell:

"Europe is a garden. The rest of the world… is not exactly a garden. Most of the rest of the world is a jungle, and the jungle could invade the garden. The gardeners should take care of it, but they will not protect the garden by building walls. A nice small garden surrounded by high walls in order to prevent the jungle from coming in is not going to be a solution. Because the jungle has a strong growth capacity, and the wall will never be high enough in order to protect the garden. The gardeners have to go to the jungle. Europeans have to be much more engaged with the rest of the world. Otherwise, the rest of the world will invade us, by different ways and means," and the gardeners must put their “privilege” to positive use. [2]
RobSGive Peace a chance 14:07, January 15, 2023 (EST)
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