Talk:Communism

totalitarian nightmare

I think that the "Christian sharing" section is out of place here. It gives a false impression that Communism - i.e., Marxism-Leninism - is in any way related to the voluntary sharing of "Christian communism". The latter is a form of communitarianism.

Communism is a totalitarian nightmare, as Orwell chillingly portrayed it in 1984. I've read books on Soviet, Chinese, Cuban, Vietnamese and North Korean life. I've met refugees from various communist countries and in 1992 personally visited 4 former Soviet SSR's. It's hell on earth.

Not that democracy is Heaven, but:

1. The Iron Curtain was to keep people in (see also Berlin Wall).
2. Refugees mainly want to come to America and Britain.

Am I biased on this? I have made up my mind, but it is based purely on the objective facts. Anyway, I do look forward to working cooperatively with other editors here. Just don't try any liberal tricks. This is a subject I know thoroughly. I have books and references. --Ed Poor 22:53, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I agree with you completely, and I urge you to improve this article as well.

It's funny that you bring this up because I just wrote the Berlin Wall stub this afternoon. MountainDew 22:54, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I think we must distinguish between the concepts that communism supposedly follows, and the fascist regimes that call themselves "communist" (USSR, China, etc.) because there is quite an important distinction between the two. You can't really disagree with this. --Hojimachong^talk 23:05, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm with you 100%, been there, got the tee shirt (and the sweat shirt, and the gold-embossed mug), etc. I have personally met the author of Communism: Promise and Practice. --Ed Poor 23:08, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

• Well, this may be true, but the main point to be made is that even with total control of a nation's populous Communism (Marx & Engel's version) doesn't really work "outside of the laboratory". This may reflect an element of biological evolution wherein a person's genetic desire to be the "fittest" precludes an egalitarian and altruistic society; i.e. why should I help those who aren't of my genetic lineage by this "sharing" or pooling of resources. Sometimes it is a benefit to do so, and so we do to some extent, but a full fledged society goes against evolutionary forces. MOO -- Rob Pommer_TALK 23:14, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

If God and Heaven did not exist, it would merely be an odd coincidence. --Ed Poor 22:56, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

That stuff comes from early Marxist writings, and dedicated Marxists still cite it today. RobS 22:55, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, here's a better quote from Toynbee,

"According to the Communist prophet's intuition ...the class-war is bound to issue in a victorious proletarian revolution.... A time is to come when....the New Society of the Marxian Millennium will be able to cast away not only 'the Dictatorship of the Proletariat' but also every other institutional crutch, including the State itself; for in that Marxian earthly paradise to come 'they neither marry nor are given in marriage' RobS 23:12, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Sheesh! People as lab rats ... it doesn't even work *in* the lab ... all the poor rats keep trying to escape. Just think about 2 sets of borders: one, when you cross it you're a refugee or defector - the other, when you cross it you're a welcome immigrant.

Who ever heard of someone crossing the Gulf of Mexico in a raft to escape into Cuba? And don't get me started on Vietnam - I read Le Gulag Vietnamien and even met the author Doan Van Toai in Boston. Read about him here. --Ed Poor 23:22, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Picture

I don't think you need the hammer and sickle to spin... I'm replacing the picture. Marl Karx 14:12, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Communism in the history of political thought (Draft)

(I'm trying to come up with a concise chapter on the history of communism, but don't have time to complete it. This is part of the draft. Please feel free to edit as if this were part of the article. When it's done I'll copy and paste it in to the main text.)

Communism as an idea was born out of the Industrial Revolutions in Europe in the 19th century. At the beginning of the century, workers in industrial nations such as Britain began to organise themselves in to co-operative societies, for the purposes of providing members with a fair price for staple goods and for the support of members who were unable to work, either because of difficulties finding employment or sickness.

These societies were often formed as a reaction to predatory employers, who would pay workers solely in vouchers to be spent at the company store, making competition impossible and enabling the employer to fleece employees. Leaders of the co-operative movement, such as Robert Owen, abhorred such practice and wished to reorganise society along similar lines to their own movement. In 1826, Owen wrote "There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, — that is by the union and co-operation of all for the benefit of each." (cite ISBN when I dig out my copy)

Communism is responsible for the democide of 100 million plus lives in very recent memory, and one quarter of the planet remains enslaved under it. Dressing it up as anything else border's on Holocuast denial. Let's stick to the facts on this sad chapter of human history, and not try to present it as anything other than what it is--a failed attempt by atheists and rationalists to dominate the human race and exterminate anyone who opposed them. RobS 16:41, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow, is that a chip on your shoulder, or a huge boulder? These are the facts. Regardless of what you think of communism, it is important that historical information be included in any article in an encyclopaedia. Should we perhaps not include the history of the British Empire because it killed so many people?

Communism is an important part of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries, and is intertwined with the social and demographic trends of industrialisation. To ignore that history is to be doomed to repeat it. --Abrown 17:08, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

To ignore the real history of Communism, like ignoring the real history of Nazism, is to be doomed to repeat it. RobS 17:29, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Communist could be good

Communism idealistically is a good system. Everyone makes the same amount of money so the rich can't exploit the poor.--BushRules12 23:17, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Picture

Don't you think we should use it's logo as the image at top? Why was it removed? Marl Karx 22:15, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

We are not here to promote, memorialize, or glorify a democidal subject. RobS 22:38, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Accepting your premise that Communism is evil, and putting its logo at the top glorifies it, then shouldn't we remove the picture at the top of Nazi? Marl Karx 17:37, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

Who put it there? It was probably placed by some scumbag troll anyway. RobS 22:01, 3 June 2007 (EDT)

very biased

This article, although it holds much truth, should be changed to be more neutral in order to give people a good idea as to what communism is about.

Oh really? You don't think eyewitness testimony from the Gulags can't give us a good idea as to what communism is about? RobS 23:32, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

This is one of the rare occasions where wikipedia has a better definition. This has no inofrmation about communism as opposed to Wikipedia's "Communism is an ideology that seeks to establish a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production. It can be considered a branch of the broader socialist movement. Communism as a political goal is generally a conjectured form of future social organization, although Marxists have described early forms of human social organization as "primitive communism" This article we are discussing just states the death's and how it has been abused not the actual concept an that is NOT an unbiased source. BTW for the wikipedia article notice how they use words like SEEKS instead of has because it hasn't thats its goal. thatgamerguy

That speaks like present tense, "an ideology that seeks..."; we only deal with facts. Communism has had 150+ plus years to "seek" whatever it sought, and left a trail of corpses in its wake that made Hitler envious. RobS 00:35, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

In bad shape

From the very beginning, this article is terrible. Below is my proposed lead (feel free to edit):

Communism is a social and political ideology which advocates the establishment of a classless, stateless society, in which the population (the proletariat) has group ownership of the means of production. According to the communist ideology, once a communist utopia is achieved, political means such as government, military, and police will be archaic and unnecessary. While the theory of communism advocates fairness and equality, the modern practice of this ideology has been punctuated by censorship, violence, and oppression. the founders of modern communism were Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Other famous communists include Vladimir Lenin, Iosef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Leon Trotsky.

--Hojimachong^talk 23:48, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

I like this lead, but I think the article looks ok. Whats there should stay. Engels founded it to, no?Богдан ^Talk 23:51, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

So should the capitalism article begin "The imperialist swine are evil money-grubbers"? I mean, stereotypes are bad; starting an article off with statistics based on a flawed practice of the theory is no way to go. And Marx was the better known than his co-author Engels, no? It is not "Engelsism", but "Marxism".--Hojimachong^talk 23:54, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Quite true, he is better known. But credit should be given were credit is due. marxism includes the philosophy of Engels.Богдан ^Talk 23:58, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Your introduction should be incorporated. But the horrors of communism should not be discarded.Богдан ^Talk 00:01, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Oh, of course they are to be included; I am just concerned that this article on a very important ideology begins with the victim statistics. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 00:08, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Certainly, that should be changed. Your introduction is nice, my compliments. It should be put inБогдан ^Talk 00:09, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Feel free to edit it, I feel like it is lacking eloquence. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 00:12, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Sorry, this page is not going to be used as a forum for (a) advocacy, or (b) apologetics, for a democidal ideology. RobS 00:27, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

RobS, please attempt to distinguish between the theoretical ideals of communism and the flawed ways in which it has been practiced. We are not here to promote or frown upon anything; we are here to build an encyclopedia. It is not "apologetics" to state the basic beliefs of communists. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:04, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Hojimachong, Why don't you don't you go to the Nazi article and explain to us how they were misunderstood. RobS 11:45, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

RobS, does 'conservative' equate to close-minded (or even non-sensical)? The Nazis were not Communists, they were Socialists. A much more fair comparison would be to ask Hojimachong to go to the Christianity page and explain how modern 'Christians' have distorted the original message of Christ. Or perhaps one could go to the Nazi page and draw all of the valid comparisons between the Nazis and the current government of the United States (which is not meant to imply the government is run by Nazis, but there are valid comparisons). Or, in keeping with the bizarre theme of this silly page on Communism, one could begin the page about the United States by detailing all of the crimes committed by the US government. Things like the persecution of the Native Americans (unless 'Manifest Destiny' allows such democides), exploitation of industrial workers in the 1880s and 1890, exploitation of agricultural workers through today, internment camps, state-mandated and assisted apartheid, legalized abortion, etc. could be mentioned. However, they aren't! So why does the Communism page start in such a startling way?

Please, this is little more than Soviet & Communist holocaust denial, and discussion with such extremists should not be countenanced by CP Admins. They need to be blocked. RobS 13:33, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Again I ask, does 'conservative' equate to close-minded (or even non-sensical)? How could one make it clear to you that the Soviets were most emphatically not Communists? Would you argue that it was Christians that were responsible for the slaughter of the pre-Columbian indigenous people of North and South America? You would probably claim that it was Conquistadors instead (unless you would deny that particular genocide). Just because the USSR was run by an organization calling themselves the 'Communist Party' doesn't mean they were Communists. Perhaps that's the point that needs to be made in an encyclopedia article. I'm not being an extremist; I'm taking perspective, attempting to view the circumstances outside of my bubble of personal ideology and life experiences. That's part of scholarship. If you are too confused or emotionally invested to understand that, I suggest that you are not fit to be editing this article.

I guess I'm just dense; is this like the debate "Does a ceramic yard toad belong in Catagory:Toads? RobS 16:18, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

No,it's not like that.

Is this page to be used as advocacy for other causes, then? Like exploiting developing countries, attempting to overthrow valid democracies, etc.? Just because people don't write your gospel, RobS, doesn't mean that they are writing ridiculous things. Perhaps you should find an encyclopedia and read about Communism. It is not practiced anywhere in the world today. Communism is a STATELESS economic system, there are no totalitarian governments that could run gulags, etc. That's the point Hojimachong is trying to make. Communism does not advocate violent revolution; Marxism advocates violent revolution to achieve Communism. If you can't recognize the difference you really need to step back and find a much broader literature base. Indeed, by improving this article along the lines that Hojimachong suggests, other people would perhaps be able to better understand the difference by reading the Conservapedia! Isn't that what the point is: getting out unbiased, factual information to dispel the myths propagated by leftist, godless, non-Americans? Show people what real communism is in contrast to the socialist regimes implemented in North Korea, Cuba, et al.

• I would say an encyclopedia is here to deal with facts. Since I do not know of a pure Marxist Communist state having ever existed, how does on craft an article about something that has never existed or been practiced? And wouldn't that kind of crap be in the article about Karl Marx, not here? --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 01:12, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

I would hope that since communism is an ideology, that the ideology itself would be discussed here, alongside ways in which it has failed, which are many and varied. But not including the hammer and sickle - the most blatant and obvious symbol associated with communism - is verging on ridiculous. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:17, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

This is a joke, right? First, there's no such thing as a Communist state as Hojimachong points out in his proposed paragraph. Second, there have been Marxist Socialist states. Third, it's absurd to think that one is unable to write an article about an ideal. Has the Christian ideal ever been realized? But there are certainly articles about Christianity on the Conservapedia. Finally, it's irresponsible to call things you disagree with 'that kind of crap' since there are approximately 4 billion people on this Earth (a very large majority) that might say the same thing about Christianity. Perhaps it's a good thing we don't live in a global democracy.

Colloquially, "communism" refers to the condition by which in theory, the workers own the means of production. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:23, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

But your initial paragraph is good because it does not fall back on the colloquial usage; that, I believe, is important for an encyclopedia article.

Communism / China

Something needs to be added stating how completely discredited Communism is, and how today, although called "communism" what is in place in China, really isn't. It is more a revert to the Imperial Bureaucracy. --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 00:58, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

But we don't have agendas....

TK, you are right, and I think Hoji misunderstood my comment several weeks ago about distinguishing between "promise and practice". Communism is much more than "an ideology with an ideal". It is an ideology which justifies the forcible overthrow of existing governments, on the grounds that it will be possible someday to make things much better.

My point is not that we should "love the ideal, hate the practioners". That is a grotesque distortion of the Christian dictum, "hate the sin, love the sinner". Rather, Communism begins with a fake ideal!

Communists claim that they are motivated by an ideal, but there is no evidence that they have ever tried to put this ideal into practice. So they are even worse than Nazis. This explains why Soviets and Red Chinese each murdered 10 times as many people as Hitler did. It's all a lie.

So we need to describe the difference between the ideal Communists say they are striving for and the things they actually do. They are not simply socialists "gone wrong". They started out wrong! --Ed Poor 12:02, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

I'm not much concerned with the body of the article, but rather the lead paragraph, which should adequately state what the theory aims to accomplish. The failures should be documented at Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism, and Trotskyism. And the image is staying. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 16:42, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Marxism vs. Communism

Every comparison made between any government that has existed and Communism is false. Communism cannot exist in a state framework. While the Soviets and Chinese governments are run by so-called communist parties, that's akin to calling Richard Cheney a Christian; we can label ourselves any way we want. We have a term in the English (or rather American) language to describe these socialist governments, so why don't we use it? Conservapedia could stand as the lone beacon trying to shine the light on the truth of the differences between Marxism and Communism!

See may latest edit to the article, near the top. Dialectical materialism is the "ideology" or philosophy which is the basis of Marxism. I defy anyone to show me where it talks about how the dictatorship of the proletariat will even "wither away" into a classless society.

No progress or stability can come from struggle. What we need, on the contrary, is voluntary cooperation. --Ed Poor 15:36, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

About communism - is it possible to edit the article anyway?

I don't understand you folks. Came here to check the site out to get an alternative view on things as you say it is about in the NY. But bashing communism like you are is just sad. Illegal to own cars? And no fair wages? The first one seemed like a minor error, something your propaganda has teached you. But the whole idea about communism is fair wages for everyone. And savings? ofcourse you can save the money you earn - even in banks.

Also you invest through taxes. The public as a whole are the onwers and investors of the companies. As a member of the party you suggest what should be built in your county and then everyone vote about it. Just as a big company congress. That communism just as any other ideolgy has been miss-used is true. Horrible people have come to power while the nations citizens didn't bother standing up against them.

You also write in the article about socialism that: "without compensation to the builders of the capital," The problem in these articles in general is not that the points of views are wrong but that the "facts" those views build on are incorrect.

There is compensation to the builders of capital. The builders of capital in this case are the populus(the population) and they recive compensation for their efforts through public ownership of companies (and thus the output of the public stock) like under Titoism or through public spending, free vacations and things like this in the USSR. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ondskan (talk)

Oh, so we're just supposed to ignore, or deny, democide, and apologize or explain how a mountain of corpses was just an experimental mistake, or misinterpretaion. Wow. RobS 13:43, 20 June 2007 (EDT)

Just skimmed the above and found at least one mistake: what kind of country offers its citizens "free vacations" but labels as "defectors" anyone who tries to emigrate? And punishes successful defectors by taking retribution on any family members left behind.

Sounds like you have a fantasy that idealizes something you know little about. Try researching the history of Russia and Cuba. --Ed Poor ^Talk 09:02, 12 July 2007 (EDT)

US embargo on Cuba is not over Communism !

Falsely stated above:"... Cuba, is still kept under economic repression by the USA due to its communist beliefs..."

The embargo on trade with Cuba is to punish Cuba for having expropriated ( with compensation offered but refused )and subsequently nationalized american companies that paid slave wages without benefits to its workers. If you disapprove of Cuban expropriation look up american 'eminent domain' !

One of these companies owned by the Fanjul family now located in Florida operates sugar cane fields in the Dominican Republic using actual slave workers. This is how glorious "opportunity-for-all Capitalism" worked in pre-Castro Cuba.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by RickyTemple (talk)

Excellent point. And the quote in the article looks like commie prop anyway. Please make the change! Thanks! RobS 16:20, 11 July 2007 (EDT)

• Unfortunately, such talk is typical Liberal deceit. Paying workers the normal prevailing wage in their country is not "slave wages" it is the normal prevailing wage. It is highly illogical to compare wages in a third world country with the wages in the United States, or UK, and then call them "slave wages". U.S. companies paid the going rate. Exactly what they do in the United States. The cost of living in Cuba, pre-1963, and Dominican Republic today, is like 1/100th of that in the U.S. Apples and Oranges comparison, and typical Liberal double-talk. --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 19:46, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

• Actually, I think your talk is typical "conservative" bias. You have no problem with the Dominican Republic paying such wages to workers, because DR fits your political/economic standard, but yet if Cuba is paying the same wages you would probably call it 'slave wages' because you don't like Cuba or its economic system. For some reason Cuba is held to a higher standard than Dominican Republic because of its economic and political system. Neither DR or Cuba can be compared to the USA or any first-world country. Shola

Shola, if you honestly think living in communist Cuba is so great, fly down there and live for a while. Karajou 19:26, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

• Hmm, typical selective reading from a "conservative"... I never said Cuba was great... just that you lot are holding it to a higher standard than other Carribean nations, which is unfair. Shola

Has the Dominican Republic promoted, funded, trained and equiped commie insurgent movements to overthrow governments outside its borders? This is the standard. RobS 23:35, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

• The most amazing thing about this arguement is, he's got it half right. Cuba is experiencing economic troubles because of trade restrictions in the US, as another editor has pointed out. Now many with the same POV that criticize US trade restrictions on Cuba will turn around and criticize NAFTA, arguing against free trade. As you say, typical double-speak. RobS 20:19, 17 July 2007 (EDT)

Get your facts straight!

When I began reading this article I thought it was a parody, upon further examination I (humorously)found that this page claims to be fact. Most of this is opinion with small bits of fact that are obviously used to support your opinion, while ignoring other facts that are extremely important in understanding what Communism is. What I found the most ridiculous, however, was that "Nazism" was under the "see also" column. Communism just happens to the polar opposite of Nazism, because Communism is on the far left of the political spectrum, while Nazism is on the far right. This obviously shows, that once again, this is purely bias, despite the claim that you are less biased than wikipedia. Its almost funny that you can claim this as fact, but I suppose its actually a bit sad, because I'm sure some idiot believes it to be as factual as you can get. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ThePantsMobile (talk)

Wow. You sound like an extreme POV pusher. RobS 23:13, 29 July 2007 (EDT)

Unbelievably Hypocritical

I am completely dumbstruck by this article. It reeks of so much bias that I thought I must have been looking at Unclyclopedia - a parody site, like someone else said. If Conservapedia wishes to claim a higher standard than Wikipedia, such atrocities as this need to be fixed as soon as possible. I would help myself, but I think this is practically at the point where the entire thing needs to be done over. And yes, this article is an atrocity. Despite the horrible crimes against humanity committed by governments claiming to be communist, communism is only an idea, and really, true communism has never existed on a large scale. In it's purest form of material equality, it has only lasted in situations like with Jesus and his disciples.

I would plead with the creator of this article to start from scratch and define communism only as an idea and ideal. Please go ahead and describe to great extent how this concept has been abused and has gone wrong, but just set yourself straight with this issue.

-Xenophon

On one level I'd be inclined to agree with you. The Political spectrum is only an idea. Conservativism is only an idea. "Right-wing" is only an idea. The atrocities conservatives and "right-wingers" have suffered however, at the hands of Communists, is having ideas ascribed to them that they do not hold.

So, what we indeed are discussing is doctrine. Communist doctrine, the historical record not proves (a) is a platform for deceit, and (b) has both advocated and practiced democide. Rob Smith 12:26, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

P.S. My last account got banned or something for absolutely no reason, other than perhaps what my username was, so do I need to try to be more conservative to continue to contribute to this site?

And what account was that? Karajou 09:40, 1 August 2007 (EDT)

-_-... But I liek Uncyclopedia...

Category

I don't think that "liberal falsehoods" is an appropriate category for this article. We can argue about whether communism is a left wing or right wing ideology, but the simple matter of fact is that the word "liberal" isn't even stated in the article, and the ideology is not currently being proposed by liberals. Could a sysop please remove this category, and possibly add an Economics category to complement the Politics one that is on there? ΨtrykeЯ ^eh?> 12:41, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

No, economics is not the proper category for communism anymore than anthropology is the proper category for national socialism. Rob Smith 12:51, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

This article is a load of crap

A load of crap. Total, total crap. It sounds like the people who made this article have been hiding out under a rock since the Red Scare and have just now reentered modern society. In addition, it's full of spelling and grammatical errors. "Persons born in Communist countries have no citizenships rights"? What the hell is that drivel? Clean it up. NOW. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nickalexwb (talk)

Rasch da, rasch!

Dann rührt euch von hin,

das du mir schafft!

Fort in die Schacht!

Weh euch, find ich euch faul!

Auf dein Fersen folge ich euch nach!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by RobS (talk)

Actually to some extent I agree - I mean communism is an economic theory - economic theories can't enslave or kill.--Iduan 21:05, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Really? Let's figure 100,000,000 x averge weight of 130 pounds = 130,000,000,000 lbs. divide by 2000 = 65,000,000 tons of dead, rotting stinking flesh. You think communist scumm today are going to hide that? Rob Smith 21:14, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Before we think about math let's just start thinking about logic. Communism is an economic theory. Saying it kills people is like saying intelligent design kills people.--Iduan 21:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

bla bla bla bla Rob Smith 21:32, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Why don't we change the first sentence to something more along the lines of

"Communism is Karl Marx's economic theory that emphasizes the non-existence of personal property and thus a classless system. History has shown disasterous results when communism has been instituted, as under it the lives of more than 100 million have been lost. Today 1/5 of the world's population are under communist rule - with the rest of the world being under socialism or capitalism." --Iduan 21:41, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

What would be the purpose of giving this murderous doctrine any sort of intellectual credibility? Rob Smith 21:44, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Logic and accuracy. It's not giving the doctrine intellectual credibility - it's giving the article intelligence.--Iduan 21:45, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

It is not an economic theory. It is a murderous doctrine which has only brought misery, sufferring, and death (except to some of its advocates & apologists). Rob Smith

Rob - it's not a murderous doctrine - that doesn't even make sense. I agree with you that it has brought misery, thus the second sentence, but to call it something it's not is over the top--Iduan 21:50, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I realize dead people don't talk, so you are saying the Memorial to the Victims of Communism is just a scam and tourist attraction? Rob Smith 22:17, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

RobS again - I'm not saying that when communism is the system of government deaths don't occur - and you would realize that if you read my second sentence. Please stop trying to twist my words and also try to remain civil (comments like "bla bla bla" aren't necessary)--Iduan 22:24, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

• Perhaps, somewhere in the first or second paragraph, it would be wise for us to have a text-book explanation of exactly what Communism is. I am not talking about practice, or what it became. Just a simple explanation of what Marx said it was. Then we can, and have shown what a liar/dreamer/schemer he was. --şŷŝôρ-₮K^{Ṣρёаќǃ} 23:25, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I would say that the mix is there in the paragraph I provided. I mean both sentences currently in the opening paragraph are included in the paragraph I provided - but I also say what communism is, text book wise.--Iduan 23:27, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Communism is Karl Marx's economic theory that emphasizes the non-existence of personal property and thus a classless system. History has shown disasterous results when communism has been instituted, as under it the lives of more than 100 million have been lost. Today 1/5 of the world's population are under communist rule - with the rest of the world being under socialism or capitalism.

I wonder, by RobS line of thinking, should the article entitled "Guns" lead off with the number of people killed by guns? Funnily, I didn't come across that statistic anywhere in the article, despite the fact that it is FAR greater than those killed by communists. Ideologies, like guns, do not kill people. Evil people kill people. If this site has a reasonably educated base, you ought to be able to present the facts in an ENCYCLOPEDIC fashion without having to worry that the article is converting people to communism. Vinceipierce 21:34, 28 August 2007 (EDT)