Difference between revisions of "Talk:Communism"

Revision as of 19:29, May 25, 2007

totalitarian nightmare

I think that the "Christian sharing" section is out of place here. It gives a false impression that Communism - i.e., Marxism-Leninism - is in any way related to the voluntary sharing of "Christian communism". The latter is a form of communitarianism.

Communism is a totalitarian nightmare, as Orwell chillingly portrayed it in 1984. I've read books on Soviet, Chinese, Cuban, Vietnamese and North Korean life. I've met refugees from various communist countries and in 1992 personally visited 4 former Soviet SSR's. It's hell on earth.

Not that democracy is Heaven, but:

1. The Iron Curtain was to keep people in (see also Berlin Wall).
2. Refugees mainly want to come to America and Britain.

Am I biased on this? I have made up my mind, but it is based purely on the objective facts. Anyway, I do look forward to working cooperatively with other editors here. Just don't try any liberal tricks. This is a subject I know thoroughly. I have books and references. --Ed Poor 22:53, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I agree with you completely, and I urge you to improve this article as well.

It's funny that you bring this up because I just wrote the Berlin Wall stub this afternoon. MountainDew 22:54, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I think we must distinguish between the concepts that communism supposedly follows, and the fascist regimes that call themselves "communist" (USSR, China, etc.) because there is quite an important distinction between the two. You can't really disagree with this. --Hojimachong^talk 23:05, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

I'm with you 100%, been there, got the tee shirt (and the sweat shirt, and the gold-embossed mug), etc. I have personally met the author of Communism: Promise and Practice. --Ed Poor 23:08, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

• Well, this may be true, but the main point to be made is that even with total control of a nation's populous Communism (Marx & Engel's version) doesn't really work "outside of the laboratory". This may reflect an element of biological evolution wherein a person's genetic desire to be the "fittest" precludes an egalitarian and altruistic society; i.e. why should I help those who aren't of my genetic lineage by this "sharing" or pooling of resources. Sometimes it is a benefit to do so, and so we do to some extent, but a full fledged society goes against evolutionary forces. MOO -- Rob Pommer_TALK 23:14, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

If God and Heaven did not exist, it would merely be an odd coincidence. --Ed Poor 22:56, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

That stuff comes from early Marxist writings, and dedicated Marxists still cite it today. RobS 22:55, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

OK, here's a better quote from Toynbee,

"According to the Communist prophet's intuition ...the class-war is bound to issue in a victorious proletarian revolution.... A time is to come when....the New Society of the Marxian Millennium will be able to cast away not only 'the Dictatorship of the Proletariat' but also every other institutional crutch, including the State itself; for in that Marxian earthly paradise to come 'they neither marry nor are given in marriage' RobS 23:12, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Sheesh! People as lab rats ... it doesn't even work *in* the lab ... all the poor rats keep trying to escape. Just think about 2 sets of borders: one, when you cross it you're a refugee or defector - the other, when you cross it you're a welcome immigrant.

Who ever heard of someone crossing the Gulf of Mexico in a raft to escape into Cuba? And don't get me started on Vietnam - I read Le Gulag Vietnamien and even met the author Doan Van Toai in Boston. Read about him here. --Ed Poor 23:22, 28 March 2007 (EDT)

Picture

I don't think you need the hammer and sickle to spin... I'm replacing the picture. Marl Karx 14:12, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Communism in the history of political thought (Draft)

(I'm trying to come up with a concise chapter on the history of communism, but don't have time to complete it. This is part of the draft. Please feel free to edit as if this were part of the article. When it's done I'll copy and paste it in to the main text.)

Communism as an idea was born out of the Industrial Revolutions in Europe in the 19th century. At the beginning of the century, workers in industrial nations such as Britain began to organise themselves in to co-operative societies, for the purposes of providing members with a fair price for staple goods and for the support of members who were unable to work, either because of difficulties finding employment or sickness.

These societies were often formed as a reaction to predatory employers, who would pay workers solely in vouchers to be spent at the company store, making competition impossible and enabling the employer to fleece employees. Leaders of the co-operative movement, such as Robert Owen, abhorred such practice and wished to reorganise society along similar lines to their own movement. In 1826, Owen wrote "There is but one mode by which man can possess in perpetuity all the happiness which his nature is capable of enjoying, — that is by the union and co-operation of all for the benefit of each." (cite ISBN when I dig out my copy)

Communism is responsible for the democide of 100 million plus lives in very recent memory, and one quarter of the planet remains enslaved under it. Dressing it up as anything else border's on Holocuast denial. Let's stick to the facts on this sad chapter of human history, and not try to present it as anything other than what it is--a failed attempt by atheists and rationalists to dominate the human race and exterminate anyone who opposed them. RobS 16:41, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Wow, is that a chip on your shoulder, or a huge boulder? These are the facts. Regardless of what you think of communism, it is important that historical information be included in any article in an encyclopaedia. Should we perhaps not include the history of the British Empire because it killed so many people?

Communism is an important part of the history of the 19th and 20th centuries, and is intertwined with the social and demographic trends of industrialisation. To ignore that history is to be doomed to repeat it. --Abrown 17:08, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

To ignore the real history of Communism, like ignoring the real history of Nazism, is to be doomed to repeat it. RobS 17:29, 14 April 2007 (EDT)

Communist could be good

Communism idealistically is a good system. Everyone makes the same amount of money so the rich can't exploit the poor.--BushRules12 23:17, 28 April 2007 (EDT)

Picture

Don't you think we should use it's logo as the image at top? Why was it removed? Marl Karx 22:15, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

We are not here to promote, memorialize, or glorify a democidal subject. RobS 22:38, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

very biased

This article, although it holds much truth, should be changed to be more neutral in order to give people a good idea as to what communism is about.

Oh really? You don't think eyewitness testimony from the Gulags can't give us a good idea as to what communism is about? RobS 23:32, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

In bad shape

From the very beginning, this article is terrible. Below is my proposed lead (feel free to edit):

Communism is a social and political ideology which advocates the establishment of a classless, stateless society, in which the population (the proletariat) has group ownership of the means of production. According to the communist ideology, once a communist utopia is achieved, political means such as government, military, and police will be archaic and unnecessary. While the theory of communism advocates fairness and equality, the modern practice of this ideology has been punctuated by censorship, violence, and oppression. the founders of modern communism were Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. Other famous communists include Vladimir Lenin, Iosef Stalin, Mao Zedong, and Leon Trotsky.

--Hojimachong^talk 23:48, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

I like this lead, but I think the article looks ok. Whats there should stay. Engels founded it to, no?Богдан ^Talk 23:51, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

So should the capitalism article begin "The imperialist swine are evil money-grubbers"? I mean, stereotypes are bad; starting an article off with statistics based on a flawed practice of the theory is no way to go. And Marx was the better known than his co-author Engels, no? It is not "Engelsism", but "Marxism".--Hojimachong^talk 23:54, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Quite true, he is better known. But credit should be given were credit is due. marxism includes the philosophy of Engels.Богдан ^Talk 23:58, 24 May 2007 (EDT)

Perhaps you misunderstood me. Your introduction should be incorporated. But the horrors of communism should not be discarded.Богдан ^Talk 00:01, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Oh, of course they are to be included; I am just concerned that this article on a very important ideology begins with the victim statistics. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 00:08, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Certainly, that should be changed. Your introduction is nice, my compliments. It should be put inБогдан ^Talk 00:09, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Feel free to edit it, I feel like it is lacking eloquence. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 00:12, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Sorry, this page is not going to be used as a forum for (a) advocacy, or (b) apologetics, for a democidal ideology. RobS 00:27, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

RobS, please attempt to distinguish between the theoretical ideals of communism and the flawed ways in which it has been practiced. We are not here to promote or frown upon anything; we are here to build an encyclopedia. It is not "apologetics" to state the basic beliefs of communists. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:04, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Hojimachong, Why don't you don't you go to the Nazi article and explain to us how they were misunderstood. RobS 11:45, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

RobS, does 'conservative' equate to close-minded (or even non-sensical)? The Nazis were not Communists, they were Socialists. A much more fair comparison would be to ask Hojimachong to go to the Christianity page and explain how modern 'Christians' have distorted the original message of Christ. Or perhaps one could go to the Nazi page and draw all of the valid comparisons between the Nazis and the current government of the United States (which is not meant to imply the government is run by Nazis, but there are valid comparisons). Or, in keeping with the bizarre theme of this silly page on Communism, one could begin the page about the United States by detailing all of the crimes committed by the US government. Things like the persecution of the Native Americans (unless 'Manifest Destiny' allows such democides), exploitation of industrial workers in the 1880s and 1890, exploitation of agricultural workers through today, internment camps, state-mandated and assisted apartheid, legalized abortion, etc. could be mentioned. However, they aren't! So why does the Communism page start in such a startling way?

Please, this is little more than Soviet & Communist holocaust denial, and discussion with such extremists should not be countenanced by CP Admins. They need to be blocked. RobS 13:33, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Again I ask, does 'conservative' equate to close-minded (or even non-sensical)? How could one make it clear to you that the Soviets were most emphatically not Communists? Would you argue that it was Christians that were responsible for the slaughter of the pre-Columbian indigenous people of North and South America? You would probably claim that it was Conquistadors instead (unless you would deny that particular genocide). Just because the USSR was run by an organization calling themselves the 'Communist Party' doesn't mean they were Communists. Perhaps that's the point that needs to be made in an encyclopedia article. I'm not being an extremist; I'm taking perspective, attempting to view the circumstances outside of my bubble of personal ideology and life experiences. That's part of scholarship. If you are too confused or emotionally invested to understand that, I suggest that you are not fit to be editing this article.

Is this page to be used as advocacy for other causes, then? Like exploiting developing countries, attempting to overthrow valid democracies, etc.? Just because people don't write your gospel, RobS, doesn't mean that they are writing ridiculous things. Perhaps you should find an encyclopedia and read about Communism. It is not practiced anywhere in the world today. Communism is a STATELESS economic system, there are no totalitarian governments that could run gulags, etc. That's the point Hojimachong is trying to make. Communism does not advocate violent revolution; Marxism advocates violent revolution to achieve Communism. If you can't recognize the difference you really need to step back and find a much broader literature base. Indeed, by improving this article along the lines that Hojimachong suggests, other people would perhaps be able to better understand the difference by reading the Conservapedia! Isn't that what the point is: getting out unbiased, factual information to dispel the myths propagated by leftist, godless, non-Americans? Show people what real communism is in contrast to the socialist regimes implemented in North Korea, Cuba, et al.

• I would say an encyclopedia is here to deal with facts. Since I do not know of a pure Marxist Communist state having ever existed, how does on craft an article about something that has never existed or been practiced? And wouldn't that kind of crap be in the article about Karl Marx, not here? --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 01:12, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

I would hope that since communism is an ideology, that the ideology itself would be discussed here, alongside ways in which it has failed, which are many and varied. But not including the hammer and sickle - the most blatant and obvious symbol associated with communism - is verging on ridiculous. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:17, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

This is a joke, right? First, there's no such thing as a Communist state as Hojimachong points out in his proposed paragraph. Second, there have been Marxist Socialist states. Third, it's absurd to think that one is unable to write an article about an ideal. Has the Christian ideal ever been realized? But there are certainly articles about Christianity on the Conservapedia. Finally, it's irresponsible to call things you disagree with 'that kind of crap' since there are approximately 4 billion people on this Earth (a very large majority) that might say the same thing about Christianity. Perhaps it's a good thing we don't live in a global democracy.

Colloquially, "communism" refers to the condition by which in theory, the workers own the means of production. --Ĥøĵĭmåçħôńğ^talk 01:23, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

But your initial paragraph is good because it does not fall back on the colloquial usage; that, I believe, is important for an encyclopedia article.

Communism / China

Something needs to be added stating how completely discredited Communism is, and how today, although called "communism" what is in place in China, really isn't. It is more a revert to the Imperial Bureaucracy. --Sysop-TK _/MyTalk 00:58, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

But we don't have agendas....

TK, you are right, and I think Hoji misunderstood my comment several weeks ago about distinguishing between "promise and practice". Communism is much more than "an ideology with an ideal". It is an ideology which justifies the forcible overthrow of existing governments, on the grounds that it will be possible someday to make things much better.

My point is not that we should "love the ideal, hate the practioners". That is a grotesque distortion of the Christian dictum, "hate the sin, love the sinner". Rather, Communism begins with a fake ideal!

Communists claim that they are motivated by an ideal, but there is no evidence that they have ever tried to put this ideal into practice. So they are even worse than Nazis. This explains why Soviets and Red Chinese each murdered 10 times as many people as Hitler did. It's all a lie.

So we need to describe the difference between the ideal Communists say they are striving for and the things they actually do. They are not simply socialists "gone wrong". They started out wrong! --Ed Poor 12:02, 25 May 2007 (EDT)

Marxism vs. Communism

Every comparison made between any government that has existed and Communism is false. Communism cannot exist in a state framework. While the Soviets and Chinese governments are run by so-called communist parties, that's akin to calling Richard Cheney a Christian; we can label ourselves any way we want. We have a term in the English (or rather American) language to describe these socialist governments, so why don't we use it? Conservapedia could stand as the lone beacon trying to shine the light on the truth of the differences between Marxism and Communism!