Talk:Atonement
Here's another important article Dataclarifier hijacked to turn into an attack piece. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:09, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
This statement: "Roman Catholic doctrine teaches the sinner must undergo a final purging of their own sins themselves in Purgatory because the blood of Jesus is insufficient to purge all sin." seems to be biased. It might be better to say something like, "Roman Catholic doctrine teaches "mortal sins are cleansed in the confessional (1 Jn 1:8-10), so that those who die with mortal sins cleansed in the Blood of Jesus do not go to Hell. And it teaches that venial sins must be cleansed in this life by prayer and sacrifice, especially through penance and the grateful acceptance of suffering, or carrying one's own daily Cross, as the Lord demanded as a condition of discipleship (Luk 9:43). Hence those who do that in this life will avoid Purgatory, but those who neglect to do that in this life will have to learn to do that in the future Purgatory in the world to come before Judgment Day" NishantXavierFor Christ the King 22:48, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- Say it in English. Bottomline, Roman church doctrine teaches the blood of Christ is insufficient and you must pay for your own sins. There is no papering over the fact that Christ is not an atonement for those is Purgatory, which likely is about 90%+ of all Roman Catholic deaths. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:54, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- 1 John 1:7 "But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we are cleansed from all sin, then there is no need for further cleansing. We see all throughout scripture that Jesus' blood offers full atonement for sin. Not some sins, but all sins. The Roman Catholic Church decided purgatory was a nice addition to the gospel though, since it pushes people to give more money to the them, in the form of indulgences, "doing a mass" for the dead, etc. I'll trust the scripture over a money-making scam any day. --DavidB4 (TALK) 18:13, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
Purgatory was believed even in pre-Christian times: "[43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, [44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) [45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them." (2 Macc 12:43-46 http://www.drbo.org/chapter/46012.htm)
The Blood of Jesus cleanses away our sins once we confess and repent of them. If we don't repent of some venial sins, we will have to do time in Purgatory for them. This is explained in 1 Cor 3:13-15, wherein it is said some Christians will be saved through fire. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 22:48, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- Oh, so Christ is not our atonement. Okay, thanks.
- What's the point of being Christian then? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:57, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- God evidently is too weak to cover our sins. He must also be a liar. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:59, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- [1] here are several commentaries. Search for "Purgatory" among them. This is starting to become a debate on a talk page again. Shobson20 (talk) 23:06, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
That site mentions mainly Protestant commentaries. There are many patristic commentaries on 1 Cor 3:13-15 that mention Purgatory. St. Gregory is one. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:19, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
Christ is our atonement but OSAS is not true. When you confess your sins, Christ's atonement is applied to you. Otherwise, everyone wuld be saved even without confession, since Christ died for all. Its a Grace to be Christian. We become Christians because God first loved us and since we love Christ 23:02, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- It's like contract law - offer and acceptance. God makes an offer. You have to accept the offer. God then is legally bound. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:32, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- God essentially says, 'You give me you, and I'll give you me'. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:34, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
God told us in Scripture some will be saved only through fire. God will keep His Word. Some Christians, the bad ones, will be saved only through fire. Good Christians will receive a reward from the Lord on Judgment Day, just as He promised in the same passage. Our Lord also said some sins are pardoned in this life, and implied some others could be forgiven in the world to come. St. Gregory says, "“We must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other." That is from Mat 12:32. Some sins are pardoned in this life, some others in the world to come. https://onepeterfive.com/purgatory-saved-fire/
- Sorry, but you've negated any use of scripture, cause you do not accept it. Don't even try. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:38, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
We accept all of it. You accept 66 out of 73 books only. Thus we know the full 100% Truth. The Truth is Purgatory exists. Even before the Incarnation of Christ, the Jews and the Maccabees made offerings for the dead and prayed for their repose. We still do that. That is Apostolic Tradition. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:50, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- It's moot. You're just speaking lies. You do not accept God's word. You've traded it for the doctrines of men. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:53, 23 July 2020 (EDT)
- The Egyptians also offered their children to Moloch before the incarnation of Christ. That doesn't make it God ordained. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:33, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
Comment
Had this article remained a straightforward teaching on Atonement, it would have been easier and of better quality. Instead, User:Dataclaraifer converted it into an attack piece on Martin Luther and Protestantism, adding confusion.
After delving into the writings of Martin Luther (for the first time in my life) that User:Dataclarifier links to, it became painfully obvious Dataclarifier was misquoting and mischaracterizing Luther's writings. This should be another heads up about DC's contributions elsewhere.
It would be easier to correct these distortions which, IMO, are deliberate, if Dataclarifier would engage in talk page discussions with good faith. However he has yet to make the effort. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:21, 24 July 2020 (EDT)
Bottomline: What Dataclarifier did was accuse Luther of what Luther was accusing Roman Catholic scholars of. Sound familiar? The same technique Democrats use, like accusing Trump of trying to steal elections through mail-in fraud. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:33, 24 July 2020 (EDT)