Talk:Liberal denial

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Editing is disabled on this page. Why? I want to contribute content. That's the whole point of a wiki. If you don't want people contributing content without your permission then this is nothing more than a blog.

Hi there. I read this article and, while I don't deny every item on the list, I do deny the majority of them. I think this confirms my liberal bias. But, it doesn't tell me if a liberal bias is a good thing (i.e. is grounded in reality). However, there is one liberal denial that is clearly testable: English will cease to be the official language of America in 20 years unless it is protected. I do deny that and in 20 short years I will know if that denial is correct or erroneous. I am willing to bet any "conservative" that this statement is wrong. Any takers?

Some people have been wondering where all the citations are for these. Well one is easy enough to find. #8 a woman significantly reduces her risk of breast cancer by having children rather than abortions. You can easily go to the American Cancer Society and see the following "Induced abortion: Several studies have provided very strong data that neither induced abortions nor spontaneous abortions (miscarriages) have an overall effect on the risk of breast cancer." Oh wait, I guess that kinda disproves/blows that argument out of the water.

One might say there's a such thing as conservative denial as well. One just might. Maestro 14:13, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

Surely the collapse of the Soviet Bloc due to its utter inability to manage a moder economy had a bigger impact that Reagan's words? Come on, this is facile at best. Darkmind1970 18:59, 24 January 2008 (EST)
See? You help illustrate our point!--Aschlafly 19:05, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Uh? What he's saying sounds far more logical. With the Soviet Union in pieces, there was no reason for them to be controlling half of Germany. Thus, Germany was reunited,and the wall dismantled. Claiming it was simply Reagen's command that did it is... Well, bloody stupid at best. Barikada 19:14, 24 January 2008 (EST)
Um, Reagan called on Gorbachev to tear the Berlin Wall down in 1987. The Wall fell in November 1989. When George HW Bush was President. And when the Soviet Union had realised that its hold on Eastern Europe was no longer possible, due to its economic collapse. Darkmind1970 19:18, 31 January 2008 (EST)
Really??? You mean that the Wall didn't fall the very next day after Reagan's speech??? Thanks for demonstrating how this point is an example of liberal denial.--Aschlafly 22:58, 31 January 2008 (EST)
... Either you never learned proper English, or you really need to crack open a textbook, man. I strongly advise rewriting that so it doesn't look like you're accusing him of denying the Berlin Wall (I assume that's what you meant, and not the Pink Floyd movie) fell the day after Reagan's speech, as if that was what happened. Barikada 23:20, 31 January 2008 (EST)
Quite correct, the wall did not fall the next day - or the next week, or the next month. It fell almost two and a half years later. You might as well credit President Kennedy for its fall by objecting to it in 1963 with his "Ich Bin Ein Berliner" speech. Darkmind1970 10:45, 1 February 2008 (EST)

I know this seems a silly, liberal question to ask...but where is all the reference material for these points? I thought this was an informative encyclopedia, not a tabloid. The truth shall set you free, after all.CodyH 07:56 13 February 2008 (CST)

Yes, the second Conservapedia commandment says "Always cite and give credit to your sources" - yet in this article there is hardly any source given for any of the asssertions. I find the examples in the article very informative, but I'd sure like to see some sources. I'd be very interested, for example, to see evidence of a liberal denial of the foundation of democracy in Protestant Christianity. Humblpi 09:53, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Wow, this entry really gets under the skin of liberals, doesn't it? Citations are easy to find for each point and will be filled in. Instead of complaining with talk, talk, talk, how about filling in some citations yourself?--Aschlafly 10:05, 13 February 2008 (EST)
OK - sorry - good point - will do! Humblpi 10:07, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Not Fair!

Come on people, this is meant to be an encyclopedia, not a summary of an Ann Coulter book DLerner

Oh come on, we all know democracy had nothing to do with the Greeks or the Iroquois. Barikada 23:24, 31 January 2008 (EST)
Aside from that, the entire concept is a catch-22: Anyone who denies any of those things is automatically a liberal, and if they deny that, well, that's only further proof they're liberals. Barikada 23:26, 31 January 2008 (EST)
Barikada, how do the Greeks fit here?


The first democractic system resembling current democracy was implemented by the Greeks, if evil public schooling hasn't lied to me. Barikada 23:30, 31 January 2008 (EST)

Abortions and breast cancer

Is it plainly true that abortion increases the likelihood of breast cancer?

My understanding is that such a claim is not supported by the medical literature. --GDewey 00:02, 1 February 2008 (EST)

Your understanding is from liberal denials. Yes, it is "plainly true" and undeniable, just as no one denies that childbirth reduces the incidence of breast cancer. Don't be fooled by liberal denials - the truth shall set you free.--Aschlafly 00:17, 1 February 2008 (EST)
See? Catch-22. Do you have a reputable medical source for this, Mr. Schlafly? Barikada 00:19, 1 February 2008 (EST)
I was thinking of this: for example (although I note that it is a few years old). It concludes that there is no increase in risk. It seems to me that if the National Cancer Institute says there is no increase in the risk then it is a bit of a stretch to say that it is plainly true that the risk increase exists. Surely you can't really call something plainly true when it goes against wht the experts are saying. --GDewey 00:29, 1 February 2008 (EST)
So, should we remove the abortion/breast cancer comment from the article? --GDewey 20:20, 1 February 2008 (EST)
Folks, go somewhere else to engage in liberal denials. Nobody honest denies that childbirth reduces the risk of breast cancer, and thus having an abortion must increase the relative risk of the mother for breast cancer.--Aschlafly 21:24, 1 February 2008 (EST)
"Nobody honest denies that childbirth reduces the risk of breast cancer, and thus having an abortion must increase the relative risk of the mother for breast cancer." This logic is plainly faulty. A woman has a certain percentage chance of having breast cancer. Having a child lowers that percentage. You are arguing that not having a child increases that risk. This is wrong. Not having a child leaves the risk unchanged. Its possible that having an abortion, in and of itself, increases the risk, but that is not what you've claimed, and is not, to my knowledge, supported by any evidence.
"Nobody honest denies that childbirth reduces the risk of breast cancer, and thus having an abortion must increase the relative risk of the mother for breast cancer." --Aschlafly Andy, that's like saying that eating too much sodium is bad for you (Something no honest person disagrees with), so therefore, eating absolutely no sodium is good for you(Something which would prove fatal). Absentismens 21:53, 1 February 2008 (EST)
You statement has no logic. Nothing in my statement had anything to do with quantity or frequency, and your analogy has no basis.--Aschlafly 22:03, 1 February 2008 (EST)
My statement has as much logic as your's. This is good, therefore, this is bad (Or vice-versa). Absentismens 22:08, 1 February 2008 (EST)
Your analogy is nonsensical, and I'm not going to allow last wordism for such nonsense. No one sincerely and knowingly denies that childbirth reduces the risk of breast cancer, and of course the inverse is also true.--Aschlafly 22:12, 1 February 2008 (EST)
Last wordism? Really? That's the best you can do? Absentismens 22:14, 1 February 2008 (EST)
You refuse to allow last wordism? Doesn't that mean that you're demanding the last word? And isn't that a trait of liberals, according to you? Doesn't that make you a closet liberal, Andy? Don't you see how the accusation of last wordism is in and of itself last wordism? SSchultz 11:01, 3 February 2008 (EST)

If childbirth decreases the risk of breast cancer, than conversely abstinence increases the risk of breast cancer. Feebasfactor 13:46, 2 February 2008 (EST)

Curses! That's exactly what I was going to say. Aschlafly's argument is utterly misguided. The woman concerned has the same cancer risk as if she was never pregnant. Is that an increased risk??? Do we now go and edit the abstinence page to say that abstinence increases the risk of cancer? HMayo 17:20, 2 February 2008 (EST)
Nice try folks, but you just continue to prove the point about liberal denial. Abortion does plainly increase the risk of breast cancer. The more abortions now, the more cases of breast cancer in the future. Continue to deny it and thereby continue to demonstrate liberal denial. As to abstinence, for the unmarried it is the best way to avoid cervical and breast cancer and far better than cancer-causing birth control.--Aschlafly 23:15, 2 February 2008 (EST)
I'm sorry Andy. That was rude of me, and I apologize. But I am genuinely confused at this point. How is abstinence the "best way to avoid cervival and breast cancer"??? With respect to breast cancer risk, what is the difference between aborting several babies or simply remaining abstinent throughout the same time period? Actually I do think that there is a reason here and I've missed it, at least it certainly seems like that. Feebasfactor 00:25, 3 February 2008 (EST)
Feebasfactor, thanks for your apology. The decision that a pregnant mother faces is whether to allow childbirth or have an abortion. Abstinence is irrelevant to that decision. Having the abortion increases her risk of breast cancer. There's no denying it, much as liberals try. Study our abortion entry if you really want further explanation. There's no need for me to repeat that entry here. Thanks and Godspeed.--Aschlafly 12:54, 3 February 2008 (EST)
I have been watching this discussion with increasing dismay. Perhaps it would be easier, Andy, if I put it in story form for you.
Let’s contemplate a story of two young women. We shall call one Mary and the other Jezebel. Now Mary has evil atheist parents and has been brought up in the absence of the Ten Commandments and without clear moral guidelines. Jezebel, on the other hand, is the daughter of committed Christians and knows right from wrong. In particular she practices abstinence and, accordingly is saving herself for her future husband. Mary, however, is wanton and, with no moral guidance, becomes pregnant to her slacker boyfriend Cory. Upon learning the news Cory immediately decamps for Canada. Due to her total lack of knowledge of God’s wishes, Mary has an abortion.
Which of the two young women has a greater risk of getting breast cancer?
P.S. Could you please unlock the Conservative Denial page. I’ve just had an idea about what to put in it. .--CarolineMilton 16:53, 3 February 2008 (EST)
Not able to respond? Doesn't surprise me. The answer is neither.
Which leads me to an observation. See in the article how you accuse liberals of concealing, denying or censoring the way in which their ideology is pushed on unsuspecting others, particularly youngsters?
In light of this discussion I guess that's what you might call ironic, isn't it? --CarolineMilton 00:04, 8 February 2008 (EST)
Your hypothetical has no bearing with respect to a woman choosing between having an abortion or carrying the pregnancy to birth. Factually, by the way, the woman who has the abortion has greater risk of breast cancer. As to "conservative denial," just suggest it here. No need for a special page for just one not-yet-made suggestion.--Aschlafly 00:10, 8 February 2008 (EST)
On the contrary, my hypothetical was exactly on point. All you have been saying is, in effect, that child birth protects you against breast cancer. It was pointed out to you that the logical result of that was that abstinence causes breast cancer in the same way that abortion causes breast cancer (i.e. both prevent one from having a child). You seem determined to just ignore the logic. Fine. No doubt those reading this page will have no difficulty seeing that for what it is.
You now appear to be making a new claim to the effect that the woman having the abortion has a higher risk than the abstinent woman.
Do you have a reputable medical citation for that claim? --CarolineMilton 18:17, 10 February 2008 (EST)
Caroline, the woman who chooses abortion over childbirth thereby increases her risk of breast cancer. She should be told that before taking that risk. Yes, our entry on abortion has many citations for this. It is not even seriously disputed, except to advance the pro-abortion agenda.--Aschlafly 19:14, 10 February 2008 (EST)
OK then. Let's recap.
1. You agree (although you seem utterly incapable of actually typing it) that in my example both Mary and Jezebel have the same breast cancer risk at the conclusion of the story.
2. Any increased risk that you are claiming is related to whether or not a woman has a child rather than whether or not a woman has an abortion. A woman could, for example, have an abortion at the age of 20 and a child at the age of 21 and enjoy the very same risk level that she would have had if she had never had the abortion.
3. Presumably you are of the view that any woman who is contemplating a life of abstinence should be warned of the breast cancer risk associated with that lifestyle.
I'm glad we seem to have sorted all of that out. --CarolineMilton 20:29, 10 February 2008 (EST)
The only thing you've "sorted" out is your clinging to liberal denial. Abortion increases the risk of breast cancer for more than one reason, and abstinence is irrelevant to that.--Aschlafly 10:03, 13 February 2008 (EST)
This is the second time recently that you have resorted to an ad hominem attack. I usually take it as a sign that my interlocutor has a weak argument. That certainly appears to be the case here.
You have stated that, in your view, "abortion increases the risk of breast cancer for more than one reason". Our discussion to date was largely premised on your somewhat bizzare interpretation of a connection between childbirth and breast cancer. You now seem to be changing that by referring to "more than one reason". What does that mean? Could you please identify those reasons. And, I ask again, do you have a reputable medical citation for your claims. I posted the URL of the National Cancer Institute on the subject. That page states, in part:
"In February 2003, the National Cancer Institute (NCI) convened a workshop of over 100 of the world’s leading experts who study pregnancy and breast cancer risk. Workshop participants reviewed existing population-based, clinical, and animal studies on the relationship between pregnancy and breast cancer risk, including studies of induced and spontaneous abortions. They concluded that having an abortion or miscarriage does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer".
Do you have some higher or better authority? --CarolineMilton 17:07, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Wow, 100 liberals denied how abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. Yes, there is better authority, like the vast majority of scientific studies on the topic. Read abortion.--Aschlafly 18:26, 13 February 2008 (EST)
I'm sure Caroline thanks you for that detailed response. Unfortunately she has been blocked for 5 years as a troll.
I must say, however, I am curious to know how you determined that "...over 100 of the world’s leading experts who study pregnancy and breast cancer risk" actually meant "100 liberals".
Is that what they call ex post facto reasoning? Or do you know the politics of each individual involved? --HMayo 19:02, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Read abortion and its explanation of the breast cancer link. If you still deny the link, then take your denials elsewhere. We recognize that you have free will and that liberals will deny certain truths regardless of the evidence. We're not going to allow last wordism for chanting a liberal denial.--Aschlafly 19:14, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Thanks, that's what I thought. --HMayo 19:47, 13 February 2008 (EST)
It is a good article and it cites a solid study in its references. However, there is something I've noticed about many controversial issues: for every study strongly asserting one thing, there'll be another asserting just the opposite. Perhaps one is a legitimate study and the other is merely junk science propaganda - but if I assume as much, what am I to base that conclusion on? Other studies of the same nature? My personal ideology? Feebasfactor 19:58, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Feebasfactor, you seem to be saying there is no such thing as truth. Well, there is truth and studies and logic can find it. In the case of abortion increasing breast cancer, both studies and logic support it. Only liberal denial stands in the way of everyone recognizing the truth.--Aschlafly 19:49, 14 February 2008 (EST)
Hmm, I'm sorry, that's not quite what I wanted to say. I agree there's truth, I suppose I just think it's hard to find sometimes, like when some studies actually point the other way. Feebasfactor 21:10, 14 February 2008 (EST)

<---undent It really is a question on the nature of scientific knowledge. Given that humans are imperfect, we must interpret our environment imperfectly. The tools of science, mathematics, and statistics help us describe that reality, and religion helps us give it meaning and purpose. What happens when our scientific knowledge collides with our moral understanding of the world? Do we change our morals? Of course not. Do we change scientific fact? No, certainly not. The only choice is to take those facts, and use our morals to understand them better. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the critic above is right, and that breast cancer and abortion are unrelated (hypothetically!) That doesn't make abortion morally right. It doesn't affect the morality of abortion in the least. Abortion is wrong either way. It seems silly to hang onto an idea in order to support a moral reality---we already know what is moral, we don't need to twist science to support it. Science has a different role. RobertK 23:24, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Nice try in expressing liberal denial in an attractive way. It's still liberal denial. Would you also deny that 2+2=4? The increase in breast cancer caused by abortion is no less logical.--Aschlafly 23:36, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Doesn't 2+2=10? Eris 18:18, 14 February 2008 (EST)
Sir, I never denied your assertion about breast cancer and abortion. I was making a more general point about the nature of knowledge and morality, and the fact that knowledge changes, while morality is timeless/permanent and cannot be altered by scientific fact, one way or the other. I must say, your ad hominem attack was quite unjustified.RobertK 23:41, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Your general point is quite correct. Philip J. Rayment 00:54, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I reread your posting, RobertK, and it does implicitly deny that abortion causes breast cancer. I don't know why you deny that now. The clear theme of your posting is that abortion does not cause breast cancer, but can be immoral anyway. Abortion does increase the risk of breast cancer regardless of its immorality, and let's not pretend otherwise.--Aschlafly 19:03, 14 February 2008 (EST)
With all respect, Mr S, I think you misread my posting. PJR apparently read all the words. I set up a hypothetical situation in which the two things, abortion and breast cancer, are not linked. Hypothetical means, basically, let's pretend. I used a hypothetical to show that it can be dangerous to look for moral teachings in science, since morality is a permanent, unchanging quality of the Divine, whereas science is the imperfect human approach to understanding the natural world. To base moral decisions on science is a fool's errand. Abortion is either moral or immoral, and whether or not it is related to breast cancer is a matter of science, not of morality. If this issue is too complex as stated, I can try to make it simpler for you, but it is goes to the heart of how to approach moral decision making.RobertK 22:14, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I think it was just a misunderstanding... Feebasfactor 22:27, 14 February 2008 (EST)
A few comments: First, rereading your (RobertK's) post, whilst I am not changing my comment that your general point is quite correct, the second-last sentence ("It seems silly ...") does appear as though it was written from the perspective that the scientific argument in this case is wrong. Personally, and because this is not explicit and not clear and may not be so, I don't believe that it's grounds for criticism, but perhaps that's what Andy was referring to. Regarding your latest post, whilst I don't really disagree with anything you said, I would qualify/clarify it by saying that if something is immoral, it will have consequences, so one should expect to be able to find those consequences, and science might be very useful for this. There is therefore nothing wrong with citing scientific evidence, even though, as you say, the scientific evidence should not be the basis of the moral argument. Philip J. Rayment 00:35, 15 February 2008 (EST)
can i just say that it seems to me that the only logical link between abortion and breast cancer, is that woman who has a child is able to breastfeed said child, thus clearing the breast of impurities etc, and that a woman who has an abortion is NOT able to breastfeed. Would someone be able to clarify this for me??? --Johnb 21:50, 19 May 2010 (EDT)
Abortion interrupts the natural process of breast development. Abortion leaves the breast with more cells that can become cancerous. Third trimester hormones (in the absence of abortion) changes these pre-cancerous cells into cancer-resistant, milk-producing tissue. Now, do you think the abortion industry and their political allies are ever going to admit that? How long did it take for tobacco companies to admit that smoking causes cancer?--Andy Schlafly 22:11, 19 May 2010 (EDT)
two things: 1) I am a sixteen year old male from Australia, and i try to take a completly neutral stance on everything (the examiners from the Board of Studies like it if you present only the facts without the politics) 2) Andy, i'm still slightly confused. Although I agree that Abortion may be one of the causes of breast cancer (or at least increase the risk of it), I still don't understand how abortion creates more cells in the breast (you said "leaves the breast with more cells") Thank you so much if you can clarify this (again) for me --Johnb 07:24, 20 May 2010 (EDT)
Hello, andy, are you there??? Feel free to reply any day now... --Johnb 08:45, 24 May 2010 (EDT)

Sources in the Abortion Article

The sources got brought up earlier in this discussion, so I thought I'd quickly skim through them

  • JPands states that giving birth decreases the risk of breast cancer, not that an abortion will actually increase it relative to having not gotten pregnant
  • The BCP Institute states that abortion will increase the risk of breast cancer relative to carrying out the pregnancy, however does not state that abortion will increase the risk relative to having not gotten pregnant
  • The Abortion Breast Cancer page states that women who give birth will have a lower risk of breast cancer than those who abort, however does not state that abortion increases the risk relative to having not gotten pregnant.

My understanding from the reading of these is that although a person who got pregnant and had an abortion will be at a heightened risk of cancer compared to if they had gone ahead with the childbirth, a person who got pregnant and had an abortion will not be at any increased risk relative to a person who did not get pregnant in the first place. Therefore it is more correct to say that abortion fails to provide the decrease in risk that childbirth offers, rather than saying that it actually increase the risk of abortion.

Having said that, I haven't had time to review the sources not available on the internet, or properly read through all of the ones provided. That said, if they follow the general theme which permeates both the neutral and conservative views then the answer to CarolineMilton's original anecdote is that the person who got pregnant and had an abortion will be at the same risk of breast cancer as the abstinent virgin who never got pregnant in the first place.

Feel free to refute me if my reading was in error. TheGuy 05:50, 14 February 2008 (EST)

Your summary of a sample of the articles is a distortion. Abortion does increase a pregnant woman's risk of breast cancer and she should be told that. The increase in risk is not merely due to a lack of childbirth, but even if it were, that is still an increase in risk and the woman should still be told that. Agreed?--Aschlafly 09:39, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I will neither agree nor disagree at this time, because I have not had sufficient time to properly read through the sources. Perhaps you could assist me by providing the specific section of a source which states that abortion increases the risk independently of child birth.
That said I do believe that a medical patient should be given all available information, it forms the basis of consent in medicine. That said, the information needs to be delivered properly, if my original summary was correct then it would be wrong to say that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer, rather it fails to provide the decrease in risk that childbirth brings. I'll have a closer look through the sources when I get home, expect an answer then, although if you point to the specific section which states that abortion increases the risk without considering childbirth that would be a great help. TheGuy 17:01, 14 February 2008 (EST)
TheGuy, you're still fighting the truth. A pregnant woman considering abortion makes a choice: increase her risk of breast cancer by having the abortion, or not. The doctor should tell her that the procedure increases her risk of having breast cancer. Agreed?--Aschlafly 19:51, 14 February 2008 (EST)
TheGuy, here are a few sources asserting links between abortion and breast cancer independant of the cancer-risk reducing effect of childbirth.[1] [2] There are others quoted in the abortion arcticle. Read them through and consider. Feebasfactor 21:20, 14 February 2008 (EST)
I apologise, I don't have time at the moment to conduct extensive research on the topics. Although I will concede that the articles do mention that abortion can increase risk independent of childbirth, the overwhelming number of studies seem to show that abortion fails to provide the decrease in risk that childbirth offers, rather than being an independent risk factor, a view echoed in both the sources provided. Again, I cannot properly comment until I have adequately reviewed the studies.
Andy, I have already stated that I believe that medical patients should be informed of all the risks surrounding their electives. However, care must be taken in order to ensure that this information is accurate. If it is shown that the risk of breast cancer is increased independent of childbirth then by all means the woman should be informed that abortion will elevate her chances of getting breast cancer. However, if a majority of studies show that abortion only increases risk relative to a person who carries out the childbirth then the woman should be informed that abortion fails to provide the decrease in risk that giving birth provides, a correct statement which does not unduly incite fear or distort the facts. TheGuy 18:45, 15 February 2008 (EST)
TheGuy, you would have made a good apologist for the tobacco industry. It denied increasing the risk of lung cancer for decades. Abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. Your attempt at obfuscation by restating that as "abortion fails to provide the decrease in risk that giving birth provides" is as confusing as it is nonsensical. "Fails to provide the decrease" is a compound negative, and an example of liberal obfuscation.--Aschlafly 19:31, 15 February 2008 (EST)

No I would not make a good apologist for the tobacco industry, because smoking does increase the risk of lung cancer independently of any other factors. The issue at hand is whether abortion increases the risk of breast cancer independently to the decease in risk offered by birth.

Assuming that my position is correct, then it would be wrongful to state that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. Consider the following scenario:

Person A gets pregnant and has an abortion

Person B does not get pregnant

My understanding is that both of these would have the same risk of getting breast cancer, therefore it would be wrong to state that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. Instead, if we add a third person:

Person A gets pregnant and has an abortion

Person B does not get pregnant

Person C gets pregnant and gives birth

In this case, person C would be at a lower risk of breast cancer to person A or B, therefore it is not that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer, instead it fails to provide the decrease in risk that childbirth brings.

If we do insist on stating that abortion leads to an increase in the risk of breast cancer then we might as well say abstinance does the same thing, as it prevents a person getting pregnant, which in turn prevents them from giving birth which in turn prevents them from getting a decrease in risk of breast cancer.

And yes I am aware of the studies that abortion independently leads to breast cancer, however I have not had time to research them properly, and do not like commenting on things I know nothing about. TheGuy 19:42, 15 February 2008 (EST)

Nice effort, but there's not much point in trying to educate those who either are incapable or unwilling to understand statistics. --Murray 23:46, 23 February 2008 (EST)
Exactly what is the purpose of this Wiki? It seems that one conservative here has been out-argued by many, many more conservatives; therefore, if the purpose of this Wiki is to broadcast the generally conservative viewpoint, then the page should be duly edited. Otherwise, we might have to accuse the wiki manager of fascism, which is a liberal philosophy.
The purpose of this wiki is to learn and explain. That requires an open mind. Give it a try, and your only regret will be that you didn't open your mind sooner.--Andy Schlafly 17:11, 14 August 2009 (EDT)

Suggestion for Item 11

That denying any above is intrinsic proof of this list's accuracy, unquestionability, and the need not to offer proof for anything. Barikada 09:52, 4 February 2008 (EST)

#9 Reversion?

So, I'm wondering why my change to #9 was reverted. Seems to me that liberals don't deny that the media is biased, they just deny that it is biased in their favor. I don't have a huge problem with the difference, I'm just wondering as to the rationale.--RossC 13:16, 9 February 2008 (EST)

It's a close call, but I agree with the reversion though I didn't do it. Liberals generally do deny media bias, period. They only make arguments of conservative bias in response to observations of liberal bias.
Moreover, "liberal media bias" is a bit redundant, as virtually all of the media has a liberal bias, It's intrinsic to that profession, with the media's reliance on deception (to exaggerate and sell the news), constant travel (which is the antithesis of family life), dependence on obscenity and allusions to obscenity, its political correctness, and its obsession with racial imagery.--Aschlafly 23:01, 9 February 2008 (EST)
Fair enough...--RossC 08:27, 10 February 2008 (EST)

'Hollywood Values'

The part about Wikipedia 'not having an entry on Hollywood Values', should really be removed, for the very simple reason that this phrase means different things to different people. Simply Googling the phrase gives many different meanings. To some, 'Hollywood values' means exactly what Conservapedia says it means. To others, it is summarised as, 'Save a tree, kill a baby. Ban cigarettes, legalize pot. Screw the Iraqi’s, save Darfur. McCarthy is bad, Castro is good. Bush is Hitler, Che is a hero. Save the planet, live in a mansion.' To still others, it means being very egotistical, not very well grounded in reality, and not having a lot of common sense. To yet others, it's all about doing anything at all, as long as you're paid enough. And, by far, that is not a complete list of the various different things this phrase actually means to various different people. As such, I would not be too surprised if the reason Wikipedia doesn't have an entry is simply because it is far too difficult to accurately define. Oh, and, yes, I will also make this point on the talk page of the 'Hollywood Values' article. Urushnor 14:44, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Wikipedia has entries about terms have more than one meaning all the time. In fact, that simply argues in favor of having an entry. But put up an entry on "Hollywood Values" on Wikipedia and watch how quickly a liberal insists that it be deleted (censored).--Aschlafly 16:37, 13 February 2008 (EST)
That is true, WP wouldn't have a page called Hollywood Values because in posting one it would be (quickly) recognized as "original research", something the WP guidelines consider verbotten. JoeManga 16:50, 13 February 2008 (EST)
Wikipedia has terms with more than one meaning, yes, but those have a relatively small number of known meanings. 'Hollywood Values', conversely, has been used to mean a very large number of things already, and seems to be changed to mean just about anything depending on who uses it and in what context. Urushnor 19:24, 13 February 2008 (EST)

On a related note - should this article perhaps contain a section on the Hollywood Blacklist? Or can that not really be considered a part of Hollywood Values...? Feebasfactor 17:16, 13 February 2008 (EST)

Liberals denying there were communists in high-level government positions? Yes, that is old news but perhaps worth adding.--Aschlafly 18:25, 13 February 2008 (EST)
(Sorry if that seemed like a bit of a non-sequitur, I actually posted that in the wrong article talk page) Feebasfactor 17:58, 23 February 2008 (EST)

Fall of communism in Europe

Shouldn't some credit also be given to Margaret Thatcher? Our article on her partially addresses this, but it is because of her that free market capitalism's successes were demonstrated to Europe. While Reagan may have helped end communism in Europe, Thatcher definitely made the alternative more appealing. --Ampersand 16:22, 24 February 2008 (EST)

I thought this was supposed to be an encyclopaedia...

But this page reads more like a tabloid article than anything. "Top ten instances of liberal denial"? According to who, exactly? It's no wonder that this website is so widely regarded as a joke when you have pages like this one dedicated to ignorant generalisations about so called 'liberals'. Maybe if you dedicated more time toward writing articles on things like history, and less time making bigoted assumptions about everyone, people would start taking this website seriously. Unlikely, though. --Gladstone

You thought way wrong, as you have obviously discovered. Here you shall learn that denial is the hallmark of every liberal. In fact, liberals often shockingly deny that they are liberals! However, they are easily detected by their frequent use of mockery and sighs. Speaking of which, I suspect you are a liberal. I would ask you to explain your positions on a number of issues, including gun control, censorship of school prayer, abortion, and intelligent design, but I am already 95% certain of those positions. Gladstone, indeed. AodhMor 12:37, 15 May 2008 (EDT)

Justifying statement 3

On line 3, it states that "the intellectual justification for Hitler's attempt to build a master Aryan race was the theory of evolution". I see no proof in this. Can someone please provide a source for such information?

Did you look yourself? It took me less than one minute to find a source: [3] --Aschlafly 23:28, 30 May 2008 (EDT)

Your source, Aschlafly, clearly has an agenda. Can you find a neutral source? AdenJ 00:11, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

So the strength of their argument doesn't count, only your opinion that they have an agenda? I don't know what makes you think that they have an agenda, but I reckon by the same logic that you have an agenda in asking, so should we dismiss your question just as readily? Philip J. Rayment 09:06, 31 May 2008 (EDT)
Excellent point, Philip. AdenJ, everyone has an "agenda" and it is absurd to pretend otherwise. You're not fooling anyone, AdenJ, to the extent you may pretend not to have an agenda. This site exists in part because we reject the falsehoods of other sites (such as Wikipedia) that pretend to be neutral when, of course, they really aren't.--Aschlafly 09:35, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

And I was so sure I had fooled you! Darn it! AdenJ 10:25, 31 May 2008 (EDT)

On the second list, item number 3: What belief? Just curious. And how is murder the logical conclusion of atheism? As far as I know, the atheist population has a lower crime rate and much lower murder rate than the rest of the population, in the US at least.--JZim 18:14, 11 November 2008 (EST)

Evolution and Hitler

This article says Liberals deny that "the intellectual justification for Hitler's attempt to build a master Aryan race was the theory of evolution." That's actually inaccurate. Hitler applied the concept of "survival of the fittest," as proposed in The Descent of Man. Survival of the fittest and evolution are different concepts. "Evolution" refers to the cumulative changes in a species over time. "Survival of the fittest" is a popular term that refers to the process of natural selection. More details here: [4]

More evidence on that note: Kara Rogers's article, a few paragraphs from the College of DuPage Cheers, —Trustworthiness

Nobel Prize to just "Liberals"

At the top of the list, as number one, there is the statement: "liberals deny the Nobel Prize is an award given by liberals to other liberals, sometimes granted in an awkward manner designed to punish a critic of liberal falsehoods " Didn't Mother Teresa win the Nobel Peace prize in 1979? Lech Walesa won it in 1983? You consider them "liberals"? --BMcP 10:21, 16 October 2009 (EDT)


would it be ok to add ,"Liberals deny that the Biblical canon was fully revealed and complete a century after the Lord's death" as opposed to the general lie that the Bible is a mish mash of competing gnostic and late Roman pegan-theist beleifs..? - Glenn.

I find this suggestion -- your only edit -- to be unusual. Matthew and John were probably writing parts of their Gospels before the Resurrection. And, by there was the Resurrection, not "the Lord's death" and nothing more.--Andy Schlafly 19:30, 2 January 2010 (EST)
I'm sorry Mr.Schlafly, I think you mistook me, I meant , that it seems to me that liberals deny that the Bible was written soon after the life of Christ on earth. Liberals tend towards that Davinci code trollop about gnostic mystics and secret revisions. The foundation of any conservative is a strong belief in our scripture, wouldn't you agree?. - Glenn

Global Cooling

Denial #5 appears to violate the 2nd Conservapedia commandment.

And that statement violates the 5th commandment, giving a liberal opinion instead of actually questioning whether it is the liberal science institution spreading fear and lies. RichardKerry 17:14, 19 April 2010 (EDT)

Question about this page

Does this refer to US liberals mainly? I ask because the liberal party of Australia is closer to the Republican party of the US. I am not very "up with the play" when it comes to US politics. MaxFletcher 15:45, 21 March 2011 (EDT)

Yes, it refers to US liberals mainly (who generally belong to the Democratic Party). More generally it refers to the philosophy or ideology of liberalism. See that article for what we mean by "liberalism".

Marijuana Use

  1. 40 says "That marijuana use has lasting psychological effects.". I have yet to see one source that claims that. There have been no reports of this happening. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Esmith543 (talk)
Although it doesn't link to any specific studies, this page from the Royal College of Psychiatry suggests their are long term mental health problems associated with it. TonyB 21:56, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
Esmith543, your comment is paradigm of liberal denial. DMorris 22:03, 11 April 2011 (EDT)
I agree. By denying his denial, he loses all credibility. LloydR 22:07, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

The conclusion that your link gave me was that there can be some serious side effects if you are in a group that is particularly at risk. There are no studies that indicate the general public is at risk of developing significant psychological effects. The U.S. government has come under criticism for exaggerating the effects of various drugs. If there was any evidence of this, it would be listed. However, NIDA only says that it can increase the risk of mental disorders in people who are already predisposed to them. I challenge people to find a single study that says that the general public is at a significant risk of having a psychological disorder solely from marijuana use. --Esmith543 22:20, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

It was once thought that smoking cigarettes was harmless, now we know it causes a litany of health problems. Even Wikipedia recognizes that cannabis use (pot, marijuana, weed, or what ever you know it as) causes health problems, including mental health problems. Studies on long-term effects have been inconclusive, but that does not mean that it doesn't cause long-term damage. Why do you insist on pushing your views on our website? DMorris 22:29, 11 April 2011 (EDT)

Problems with Liberal Denial

This article needs a bit of a clean-up, and should be sorted and expanded. I think that each denial needs a source of a liberal that believes the falsehood, and a link to a proof they are wrong. Without this, the examples could just be straw men.

BenDylan 23:16, 28 May 2011 (EDT)

Heavy metal lyrics

A lot of heavy metal songs (along with other genres) contain lyrics about revolutionism and anti-capitalism. Isn't that worth a mention too?

example #1 should be removed

We all know now that the guy who was tackled had nothing to do with the attack, leaving statements like this on the site seriously damage our credibility in the public eye. Fnarrow 14:49, 19 April 2013 (EDT)

Liberals deny that Jesus Christ was most likely the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews; no other plausible author has been suggested.

„Liberals deny that Jesus Christ was most likely the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews; no other plausible author has been suggested.”

this should read:

„Liberal and conservative Biblical scholars alike do not think that Jesus Christ was most likely the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews - the only advocate of this theory is Andrew Schlafly.”

Andrew Schlafly, until you can find a few Biblical scholars who back up your idea, you should mark it clearly as your invention. I don't hope that your want to mislead your readers by presenting this idea as more main-stream that it is. To portray all of the critics of your idea as liberals is somewhat insulting.

--AugustO 14:41, 15 May 2013 (EDT)

Tamerlan Tsarnaev

I recommend deleting the item which reads, "Tamerlan Tsarnaev, the mass murderer who perpetrated the Boston Marathon bombing, likely committed a gruesome triple murder in 2011 on the 10th year anniversary of 9/11, but liberals refuse to admit it." I have found nothing in the media (including the "liberal media" which supports this claim. In general, the response to the Boston Marathon bombings and subsequent investigation of Tamerlan Tsarnaev has been non-political. I fail to find any "liberal" or "conservative" spin on the issue. The only fight has been on when Tsarnaev's brother should have received his Miranda warning during questioning. There is also some debate on whether the triple murder was on 9/11/11 or 9/12/11, but most people believe the triple murder was a "drug deal gone bad" rather than a terror attack. Please give references to support your view. Thanks, Wschact 01:11, 27 May 2013 (EDT)

Aptitude for math

It may not be aptitude itself, but also inclination to pursuing math as a career, which accounts for differences in achievement or promotion in the academic sphere. Summers was asked to provoke scholars to examine the issue of disparity from all perspectives, and not just to assume that it was discrimination alone that accounts for the underrepresentation of women in STEM fields. --Ed Poor Talk 23:48, 15 September 2013 (EDT)

Girls outperform boys in math in the early grade levels. There may be cultural/socialization reasons for men to overtake women at upper grade levels. Wschact 00:15, 16 September 2013 (EDT)
Yes, those are some of the factors Larry Summers was asking the professors to consider, along with personal inclination and natural aptitude.
Why do men like difficulty, sweaty jobs like longshoremen and lumberjacks? Why aren't there more female taxi drivers? Why so many lady teachers and nurses? Is it 100% culture and social?
This is what Summers was asking them to consider, but of course that challenges liberal dogma (feminism). He wanted them to put their assumptions to the test. The risk for them was that they would have to stop screaming about discrimination and the need for affirmative action. If women simply don't want STEM careers, why should the academic world force them to go into such things? --Ed Poor Talk 11:39, 17 September 2013 (EDT)
Excellent analysis about the Larry Summers issue, Ed. In response to Wschact, Summers had to withdraw from the position because he merely suggested the possibility that female math/science aptitude is different, not because he endorsed the possibility. In fact, Summers (in politically correct style), even stated his opinion that the possible explanation would not prove to be right.--Andy Schlafly 13:18, 17 September 2013 (EDT)

Renumbering list

The list has been renumbered as new items have been added. However, the Obama photo caption makes reference to item #8, which now deals with fetal pain. Wschact 00:15, 16 September 2013 (EDT)

Suggestion for Atheism

I think a bullet point should be made that says something to the effect that "that atheism is directly correlated with poor health and other societal ills." and a lot of the articles here that prove this point could be linked at the end of the sentence. MAponte

Iraq War

Liberals deny that the war in Iraq was needed and also deny that the surge has worked But the situation for Christians in Iraq has become worse after the fall of Saddam Hussein.--JoeyJ 12:08, 2 March 2014 (EST)

Your comment is very insightful. Accordingly, I have removed the statement about Iraq. Thanks for mentioning this.--Andy Schlafly 13:23, 2 March 2014 (EST)
Should I also remove the two sentences "Opposition of Operation Iraqi Freedom, a major part of the War on Terrorism" and "Opposition to the War on Terrorism and the War in Iraq" from the article Liberal?--JoeyJ 13:43, 2 March 2014 (EST)
Yes, that would be fine for you to revise that entry as you indicate.--Andy Schlafly 14:05, 2 March 2014 (EST)

Proof of the Theory of Relativity

From your favourite paper "Einstein, Eddington, and the Eclipse":

Every year the distant quasar 3C279 passes behind the Sun, producing a measurable deflection. These measurements confirm the Einstein prediction and it is now accepted by the vast majority of physicists that light is bent in the manner suggested by the general theory of relativity;

Moreover, other predictions of the general theory also seem to fit with observations: the orbital spin of the binary pulsar is a notable example because it led to the award of the 1993 Nobel Prize. Nowadays, astronomers even use the bending as a measurement tool, so confident are they of its theoretical basis. For example, distant galaxies can act as giant gravitational lenses, forming multiple images of background objects such as quasars. This effect was first detected by Walsh et al. and now is part of the standard astronomers’ toolkit.

Who is cherry-picking now?

--AugustO (talk) 17:01, 18 February 2016 (EST)

Generally when someone refuses to accept scientific findings, it's because there is some ulterior motive such as the desire to maintain faith in some philosophical or theological idea; or the desire to achieve a certain political or economic goal. It could even be sheer intransigence.
My great-grandfather Charles Lane Poor initially opposed Einstein's theory, primarily on the grounds that Newton's ideas accounted for the starlight shifts just as well as Einstein's. His initial reactions are well-publicized, but I wonder what he thought later on in life as more evidence accumulated. --Ed Poor Talk 11:12, 29 February 2016 (EST)

Liberals and celebrity stalkers

A lot of political people, especially the liberal (or "progressive") type, are delusional. They harbor beliefs that just don't fit with reality, and if you try to point it out to them, they resist to the death - preferably yours.

They create a scenario for themselves, and then act according to that scenario rather than reality. [5]
"a false belief that cannot be shaken even in the face of compelling contrary evidence." [6]

They are also like Dr. Phil's notion of BAITERs

They live in a fantasy world marked by delusion. ... They may see themselves as victims or in some exalted status but always in a manner that justifies and motivates their self-serving agenda. [7]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ed Poor (talk)


"Liberals deny even the possibility of women having different aptitude for math than men, even though every Fields Medal recipient has been male, nearly every Putnam fellow has been male, and the highest achievers on the SAT math exam are predominantly male."

This is wrong. In 2014 Maryam Mirzakhani, an Iranian woman, was awarded the prize.--JoeyJ (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2016 (EDT)

re: "That men and women are by nature different"

Maybe this only applies to conservatives because liberal men are commonly such "girly men". :)

Take for example the liberal Richard Dawkins who recently whined about feminist women bullying and muzzling him (see: Essay: Richard Dawkins is conquered and muzzled by women). This is clearly something that Chuck Norris would never do. I also don't recall John Wayne ever complaining about women bullying him or muzzling him. Conservative (talk) 12:13, 25 March 2016 (EDT)

I thought John Wayne enjoyed being nuzzled by women! ;-) --Ed Poor Talk 13:22, 25 March 2016 (EDT)

New addition

I'd like to add this to the History subsection of the More generally liberals deny section:

  1. That the Democrat Party founded the Ku Klux Klan and supported it for decades, and that the Democrats not only championed slavery of blacks before and during the Civil War and segregation and suppression of blacks for decades afterward, they still champion a form of slavery and suppression against blacks (in the form of the welfare state) and still have the same attitudes toward blacks today as they did 150 years, 100 years, and even 50 years, ago.[1]
Northwest (talk) 23:09, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
  1. D'Souza: Dems want to "shift blame" with Confederate crusade at WorldNetDaily