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| − | == Arguments ==
| + | {{Wikiproject Religion}} |
| | + | {{protect|TK}} |
| | + | [[Talk:Intelligent design/Archive-1]] |
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| − | Important, vitally important, to set out the major errors with evolution that intelligent design addresses. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 16:54, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | == More evidence of intelligent design == |
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| − | Bottom line: Secularist commentators on Intelligent Design are Ivory Tower snobs that hide behind exclusionary institutions meant to obfuscate knowledge. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 17:50, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | I would add [http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/01/28/meet-tiny-hour-clock-blood-cells/#content this article] giving more evidence of an intelligent designer at work. [[User:Martyp|Martyp]] 11:05, 30 January 2011 (EST) |
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| − | :With a kick butt secret hand shake too! [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:51, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | == [http://www.conservapedia.com/Intelligent_design#cite_note-0] is a logical fallacy == |
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| − | :Dimitar, please discuss in here before making edits on main article. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 18:58, 23 March 2007 (EDT) | + | The reference is an argument from ignorance. It effectively posits that since there is no evidence against intelligent design, it must be true. [[User:Celigans|Celigans]] 03:03, 10 April 2011 (EDT) |
| | + | :Atheism is <s>also</s> a logical fallacy; atheists think since there is no evidence against atheism that it must be true. Keyword is ''think''; they ''think'' there is no evidence against it. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] 07:31, 10 April 2011 (EDT) |
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| − | :Dawkins is a known atheist, TmToulouse. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 19:00, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | What? No. Atheists do not claim that evolution or atheism "must" be true. No, that is exactly what annoys atheists about religion, that it claims to know things absolutely and conclusively. And, simply to point out a logical fallacy, atheism does not have to be proven, religion does. |
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| − | ::DunsScotus, I'm guessing your defition of "Ivory Tower snob" is anyone you can't understand. -'''<font color="#007FFF">Ames</font><font color="#FF0000">G</font>'''<sub>[http://www.conservapedia.com/User_talk:AmesG yo!]</sub> 16:21, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == General ==
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| − | To avoid an edit war, I'll discuss the changes I made here before reintroducing them.
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| − | On the Judge Jones speech: Jones is a Republican and a Christian, appointed by George W Bush. If we're going to count quoting him as 'liberal POV,' then perhaps we should make a list of conservatives who aren't conservative enough for conservapedia. Who wants to start?
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| − | On the DI's publication list: the cited list contains 38 publications. That's assuming no duplication. It's also counting books, not just articles, and not all of the entries are peer-reviewed. That's not even considering the actual content of the articles, and whether any make a positive case for ID.
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| − | On the DI's petition: it is neither designed for nor capable of measuring an increase in support for ID. The claim that scientific support for ID is 'steadily growing' is utterly unsupported. 700 is not 'broad support' in a community of tens of thousands. The petition is indeed open to mathematicians and engineers, as can be seen at the cited website.
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| − | On 'new scientific evidence' questioning evolution: far too strong a statement to be made without so much as a citation. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 14:39, 2 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | :The removal of reference to the Judge Jones speech was wrong and detracts from the authority of this site. I will replace it unless a cogent reason for its removal is provided. --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 19:00, 2 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | ::Authority of this site? It's a laughing stock. "Design Theory has broad scientific support" indeed. What a joke! --[[User:John Galt|John Galt]] 17:52, 5 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | :Since no one has even attempted to dispute my points, I'm going to go ahead and make the necessary changes. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 05:59, 6 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | ::Exactly why are you adding the liberal viewpoint as fact to the article? [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 17:05, 6 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | :::Perhaps you could start with the ''list of reasons above'', not to mention Conservapedia's first commandment. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 17:08, 6 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | ::::Everything I added and subsequently restored is properly supported by proper ''conservative'' sources, which is more than I can say about your changes. [[User:Harpie snark|Harpie snark]] 17:23, 6 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | ::::::"I'm right and you're wrong" does not constitute a rebuttal. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 17:31, 6 March 2007 (EST)
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| − | I simply wished to outline the reasons behind the changes I made.
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| − | Essentially, Intelligent Design, as is, can not be a scientific theory unless you can prove the existence of God with the scientific method. You can believe it, you could be right, but it is not science. This is the reason why the petition to have it taught in the science classroom was denied.
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| − | Proponents of intelligent design, such as Behe, always stress that the guiding intelligence is probably God, but that it doesn't have to be. This is necessary to ensure that intelligent can be viewed as science rather than religious dogma. [[User:Order|Order]] 10:20 (AEST)
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| − | If you claim that intelligent design claims that the intelligent cause is God, you just reiterate to point which the Kitzmiller party in the Dover trial tried to make; namely that ID is religion and not science. ID proponents always claim with good reason that the intelligent cause is unknown. [[User:Order|Order]] 14:20 (AEST)
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| − | I eliminated the word "notable" in two places because it is not supported by facts and it is simply a POV word. I also added the word "some" because obviously not all scientists are supporting ID - in fact, only a miniscule number of them are. --[[User:MoeLarryAndJesus|MoeLarryAndJesus]] 17:44, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == "notable"? ==
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| − | There is a fair bit of edit war going on now over the word "notable". How are these things notable? Why are they notable? The word adds nothing to the phrase "From 2001 to 2007 over 700 notable scientists" unless one can actually say what makes these scientists notable (beyond signing the manifesto). I strongly recommend its removal. There is a difference between removing liberal bias and adding conservative bias. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:47, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | I agree totally. "Notable" means absolutely nothing in this context. If someone wants to show me a list of Nobel Prize winning scientists who signed the document in question, I'd say "notable" was warranted. It's not even a matter of "adding conservative bias" - it's just gibberish. --[[User:MoeLarryAndJesus|MoeLarryAndJesus]] 18:56, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | "Notable" stricken again. It would be nice if the person who is reverting my edits would explain what purpose "notable" serves instead of just reverting without comment. --[[User:MoeLarryAndJesus|MoeLarryAndJesus]] 18:58, 14 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ==two issues==
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| − | Someone messed uop the article and deleted it all but left some curse words. Also, why is there no article about Dr William Dembski? I believe he has proven evolution wrong by using math and science, but there is no article about him and very little mentions of him in this article (even before it was deleted). [[User:Miles|Miles]] 17:30, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :If you want an article on Dembski, feel free to create one. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 12:15, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == The Theory of Intelligent Design ==
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| − | I notice that evolution is (for reasons that I never really understood) defined under the heading "The Theory of Evolution". Shouldn't Intelligent Design be defined under the heading "The Theory of Intellegent Design". As things stand it rather looks as if Conservapedia is endorsing intelligent design over evolution. I am sure that this is unintentional. Perhaps this page should be moved to "The Theory of Intelligent Design". Comments? --[[User:Horace|Horace]] 18:50, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Just as soon as someone develops a coherent theory of intelligent design, we can move the article. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 18:52, 15 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :This goes back to, no doubt, the notion that evolution is just (or "just") a theory, whereas intelligent design is, I suppose, to be considered the standard non-biblical explanation. [[User:WJThomas|WJThomas]]
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| − | :Yes, evolution is a theory. The idea that the Earth orbits around the sun is ''also'' a theory, we just have ALOT of evidence that is in support of said orbit. The idea that the Sun is a ball of gas is also a theory, but supported by numerous scientific experiments via observation from Earth and with probes. So no, Intelligent Design is not a theory because it refuses any chance of it being disproven, it's inherently deep seated in the idea that absolutely everything it states is pure fact. I suggest you go buy a telescope and try and see if you can find God somewhere 'round the Andromeda galaxy. For it to be a theory you have to present '''''evidence''''' that supports the existence of Him/Her/It/Them. All you have is a book that's arguably overexaggerated fiction mixed in with some history. [[User:Opacic|Opacic]] 05:17, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | The theory part should be removed. Intelligent design is not a theory it is a hypothesis.--[[User:Tims|TimS]] 12:49, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == BCE ==
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| − | how come [[BCE]] isnt allowed?
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| − | :Because it ''really'' means '''B'''e-'''C'''oming '''E'''volutionsists! --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup> 02:22, 16 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | This is answered on the commandments page, but essentially its because the Conservapedia founders believe that any term that doesn't mention Christ is Anti-Christian. I dont understand it either, but they make the rules... just seems like nitpicking to me. - Suricou
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| − | == Other Intelligent Causes ==
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| − | In the statement:
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| − | "The hypothesis on intelligent design leaves the identity of the intelligent cause open, since this question is not accessible by scientific investigation [2]. Many proponents however admit to believe the intelligent cause to be God."
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| − | There is listed only one potential source for the intelligent cause, that being God. Should there be other potential intelligent causes listed? I know there are many who believe humans are the decendants of alien and ape interbreeding, now they may not be a "sane" position but shouldn't there be an attempt at listing at least one other possibility? Any suggestions?
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| − | : Earlier version of this article had a reference to extra-terrestrials. I even added a link to a site by the Raelians. This entire piece was then removed with as reason that Raelians are religious nuts. I can see that point. However, Behe for example also said something to that effect, that it could have been an alien, or a time traveling biochemist. I am not sure if this article needs a reference to extra-terrestrial causes, but if you want to propose something, I would start with Behe's or Dembski, since they are less controversial as the Raelians, or Erich van Daeniken, or some Russian guy, who has a theory about a 10th planet (forgot his name:). --[[User:Order|Order]] 17 March, 19:00 (AEST)
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| − | ::If my views decided, JWs and Catholics would be considered religious nuts, I find their respective beliefs rediculous. But its not my place to decide which religion is nutty, nor anyones - go ahead and put it back on, and if someone wants to take it out again then they should come up with a more specific reason than that. - BornAgainBrit
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| − | ::I agree that the Raleians are kind of out there but it a round about way they support what Behe and Dembski say on the subject (both propose it could be a space alien). Wikipedia would not allow any mention of the Raelians on their article about Intelligent Design even though the Raleians specifically mention the intelligent designer(s). It might broaden the article to inlcude their perspective on intelligent design. That's the problem with Wikipedia, they do not allow all sides to be represented. [[User:Miles|Miles]] 12:10, 19 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::Neither does this side. The Raelians are a though sell here as well. --[[User:Order|Order]] 20 March
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| − | ::::Why is it a tough sell? The design theorists all claim it ''could'' be a space alien and the Raelians all claim it ''is'' a space alien. Just seems odd to leave this fact out, especially since the Raelians are supporting intelligent design theory and not criticising it. [[User:Miles|Miles]] 14:14, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == Conservative's "factual error" ==
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| − | Conservative, you don't state how that was in error. There are two possibilities:
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| − | * You show multiple articles that have been in peer reviewed papers
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| − | * You show that the article that was mentioned was not pulled from the paper
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| − | Otherwise, it was not in error and to remove the explaining text only serves to mislead the reader. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 16:40, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Aaaaaaaaand he protected it.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 16:42, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :: What a fascist, Man, anytime I question my decision to move out of my country I can come here. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 16:43, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::: This should '''not''' be protected. I'm not convinced this was an error. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:44, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::::The footnote shows there have been more than one article. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:46, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :::::Lies makes baby jesus cry. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 16:49, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | (Wooo hooo! One more for the Lock List:[[User:myk]] [[User:Myk|Myk]] 16:47, 23 March 2007 (EDT) I think I'll just hold out on removing this from the list... I think I know how this will play out.)
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| − | ColinR correctly unlocked it. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:48, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Locking articles is to prevent vandalism, not to enforce one's ideology. If more peer reviewed papers can be found, I have no issues with changing the article. Until then, that section should remain as is and the article should be '''unlocked'''. [[User:ColinR|ColinR]]<sup>[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</sup> 16:51, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :To Conservative<nowiki>:</nowiki> calling editors who made factual edits "unreasonable people" and "evolutionists" is an ad hominem attack. [[User:ColinR|ColinR]]<sup>[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</sup> 16:55, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == what is wrong with this sentence? ==
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| − | Recently, there has been articles which defended the [[intelligent design]] position in scientific journals which traditionally have favored the macroevolutionary position. [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2640]
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| − | LOOK AT THE FOOTNOTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 16:52, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :Pull out TWO just TWO articles that have been published in peer review journals not run by the DI and affiliates. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 16:54, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Aside from the grammar, there have not been '''articles''', there has been '''one'''. As such, the AmesG edit is the correct one. [[User:ColinR|ColinR]]<sup>[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</sup>
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| − | :Intelligent design is broadly supported in the scientific community. We should consider Behe's books. [http://www.arn.org/authors/behe.html] [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 16:57, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Those aren't peer reviewed articles. [[User:ColinR|ColinR]]<sup>[[User_talk:ColinR|talk]]</sup> 16:58, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::Behe is still another source nonetheless. There's no reason he should not be included, if not for historical notability. [[User:MountainDew|MountainDew]] 16:58, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :: A few books by one individual does not constitute broad support. Nor are those peer reviewed. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:00, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :[http://thequestionableauthority.blogspot.com/2005/12/discovery-institute-and-publications.html fun reading] [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 16:59, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Behe's books are irrelevant to whether ID is "broadly supported by the scientific community," which it is clearly not.[[User:Murray|Murray]] 17:01, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Here is a portion of that footnoted material and pay attention to the bold portion:
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| − | Peer-Edited or Editor-Reviewed Articles Supportive of Intelligent Design Published in Scientific Journals, Scientific Anthologies and Conference Proceedings
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| − | '''Jonathan Wells, “Do Centrioles Generate a Polar Ejection Force?," Rivista di Biologia/Biology Forum 98 (2005): 37-62.'''
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| − | [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:04, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | : The key phrase here is "Peer-Edited or Editor-Reviewed" -- that is not the same at all as "peer reviewed". Those are not peer reviewed journals. They do not claim to be. It is a very different level of what is acceptable to each. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:05, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | : Furthermore ... those journals you have linked to are not ones that are traditionally proponents of evolution. You've even got a philsophy journal in there. None of those are peer reviewed science journals. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:08, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Hahahaha! Rivista di Biologia???? You are kidding right. Let me guess you don't know much about that journal? Books that have not under gone peer review don't work either. We are talking SCIENCE also not philosophy. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:06, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Just because secularists fail to recognize the truth of the Bible, and gang up on brave men who try to expose the truth (there's an analogy to theorists of global climate change, here) doesn't mean that Behe isn't a trailblazer in furthering understanding of God's creation. I'd say secularist scientific opinion is irrelevant. Conservative, you're on the right track! [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 17:06, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Just check DunsScotus... you do know that ID has "nothing to do with religion" right? [[User:Myk|Myk]] 17:07, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | I don't get why everyone is so mad about this. In my view there is a rich amount of information available to debate both sides. However, the people attacking "many" just seem to want to discredit ID. Why not admit that both sounds have reasonable grounds for argument?--[[User:CWilson|CWilson]] 17:15, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | : The problem here is that facts are being misrepresented. It doesn't matter who is misrepresenting them - I'll fight just as hard if a secularist misrepresents something in the Bible. However, when one says that multiple articles have been published in peer reviewed journals and that is shown to be not true, and the one article that was published was withdrawn, then facts are being misrepresented. One can argue about interpretations all they want, but to make patently false claims to bolster their side of the argument is unacceptable. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]] 17:18, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :CWilson the point is that the Discovery Institute's list of "peer-reviewed and peer-edited" publications supportive of ID is basically full of what is at best misleading information, and at worst outright lies.--[[User:Murray|Murray]] 17:20, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Intelligent Design is a useful corrective to the foul odors produced by the materialist and atheistic opinions of [[Charles Darwin]] (you'll note his entry identifies him as such.) Along with Marxism, these are philosophies that have done great harm to humanity by tempting them away from Christianity and Capitalism. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 17:28, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == why aren't you counting this? ==
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| − | Jonathan Wells, “Do Centrioles Generate a Polar Ejection Force?," Rivista di Biologia/Biology Forum 98 (2005): 37-62.
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| − | [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:09, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :Because Rivsta di Biologia is not a legitimate journal. It publishes everything, and is run by a fringe editor. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:10, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Would [[The Fortean Times]] be acceptable? --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup> 17:12, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Is Rivsta peer reviewed? Yes or no? Is it a science journal? Yes or no? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:19, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | Rivsta is a Theoretical Biology journal, not a research journal. ''<sup>personal remark removed</sup>'' Lol:)--[[User:Tims|TimS]] 12:57, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == Impact Factor ==
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| − | :No and no. Anything with a 0.5 IF is NOT a science journal. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:22, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::What does this mean: Anything with a 0.5 IF is NOT a science journal? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:24, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | ::::My apologies, IF is used in academia to rank journals by influence and respect. Its called the Impact Factor. Essentially you can think of it as a measure of how much other scientist pay attention to the journal. Anything under 1 means that it is NEVER cited and never read by anyone outside the journal. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:26, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Impact Factors are only relevant when discussing secularist publications. Given the existing biases against the truth (or the paradigm!) it is hard to believe that the Biblical Truth would get much play in say, ''Nature.'' [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 17:28, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::: This actually supports the suggestion that Rivsta di Biologia is not part of the ''secularist publications'' and thus should not be used in addressing if there is support amongst mainstream science as has been alleged. --[[User:Mtur|Mtur]]
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| − | :::::::Tmtoulouse, you said to "rank journals". You therefore admitted it was a journal. It is a science journal. Now why isn't it peer reviewed? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:32, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | ::::::::Wrong. It is used to "rank journals" but that does not make this a SCIENCE journal. It merely makes it a journal that no one reads. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:34, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Even a scientific journal ''nobody reads'' is still a scientific journal. Just because your precious secularist publications wouldn't recognize Truth if it was submitted to them as a peer-reviewed journal article doesn't detract from the Truth of the Intelligent Design movement being published in Scientific journals. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 17:36, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Okay guys I am bolding this cause you seem to miss it '''journal does not equal science journal'''[[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:37, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::::Tmtoulouse, I think you are playing games. It is a science journal and it is ranked. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:40, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :::::Rivista?? You are still on about Rivista? No it is NOT a science journal and it is not "ranked" in any normal sense of the word. An IF can be computed for anything, Rivista does NOT have an IF. Its NOTHING. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:42, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::::::Tmtoulouse, Why are you saying that Rivesta is not peer reviewed? Can you back that statement up? Secondly, who decides what IF number decides if a journal is a science journal. Is Tmtoulouse the decider? And who decides that IF number is even relevant in determining if a journal is a science journal. Again is it you? Please show me some authoritative source that gives a IF number cut off for something to be considered a science journal. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:47, 24 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | (undent) In order to be a ''science'' journal you must contribute to ''science'' if none of the article you published receive even a cursory glance then you can't not say your journal is contributing to science. Rivista is not a respected journal, the editor is fringe, publishes mostly rants against the "establishment" and has as much peer review as a journal published by the DI. If you REALLY want to add the Rivista citation, then we need to link to sites criticizing Rivista, and this is not needed in the article. But, even if Rivista WAS a science journal, as has been pointed out all ready the paper published there is NOT about intelligent design and did not us ID "theory". So its an interesting, though moot point, about the reliability of Rivista as a journal. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:56, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == Creationist scientists have peer reviewed journals too! The whole statement is invalid ==
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| − | Creationist scientists have peer reviewed journals too! The whole statement is invalid [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 17:37, 23 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :My buddies and I could put together a peer reviewed journal about ninjas, too, but that doesn't make it accurate and it doesn't make it science.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 17:39, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :If you want to add a sentence about how they have published lots in journals that are run by creationist go for it. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 17:39, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::I'm new here but I think Conservapedia would be best served by NOT perpetuating the half truths (such as peer review) told by the Discovery Institute. The sooner the concept of intelligent design can divorce itself from the likes of the Discovery Institute the better. Avoiding the mistakes of Wikipedia is a great thing but to adopt the Discovery Institute's methods (and arguments) would not be an improvement. [[User:Miles|Miles]] 18:20, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :The Discovery Institute only supports the Truth, Miles. If that Truth is inconvenient for secularist ears, so much the better. As Paul says, in Galatians 4:16, "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 18:24, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Duns, I swear on everything I hold dear, the DI does not want you supporting them in one breath and then quoting scripture in the next. They won't get what they want that way. [[User:Myk|Myk]] 22:46, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ==Creationists==
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| − | ::Cross-apply that Galatians quote to YEC reactions to evolution in general.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:31, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::The problem YEC's have is starting in the middle of the science. To wit: "We know that the Bible is Truth itself, how then can we fit the science to match that which we already know to be 'true'?" YEC science '''can''' be crafted so that everything fits. It cannot, however, make any predictions because the science can only be used in ONE direction, the past. You will never see a YEC say, "We know dinosaurs and human beings existed at the same time, therefore it may be observed that (insert prediction here); thus providing a truth that the premise is true. --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup> 18:34, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Creationists are far afield from Intelligent Design advocates, but in both cases, it is important to suppress these secularist notions of ''inferable truth'' with recourse to unimpeachable sources, in this case, the Bible and common-sense observation of reality. There is no evidence, without resorting to inference, for so many cherished liberal/secularist concepts. This means that Evolution, for example, or Geologic Time Scale-ism, are belief systems of their own, but false ones, because they do not have The Bible, and the Truth of God's Word, behind them. Who would you rather put your trust in? Human scientists? Or God? Cracker, the Bible is the Only Truth you need. Don't second-guess God. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 18:39, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::Wow. I guess I'm the first one here, so I'll drop the f-bomb: '''''falsifiability'''''. By explaining your "truth" that way, you prove how it's not science.-18:41, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::Where is your God, AmesG? God is the only Truth, science just uncovers what God wants to reveal. [[User:DunsScotus|DunsScotus]] 18:44, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::So much for God not being the author of confusion. --[[User:Cracker|Cracker]]<sup>[[User_Talk:Cracker|talk]]</sup> 18:52, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::::Well he is the source of [http://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Great_Flood#On_Kant translation error] in the King James bible according to DunsScotus. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 18:54, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ==Without Merit==
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| − | Okay DunsScotus what is with out merit? [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 19:03, 23 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ==Well's Centrioles paper==
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| − | Whether or not ''Rivista'' is a credible journal is utterly irrelevant, since Well's hypothesis was in no way based on any theory of intelligent design. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 14:55, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == I found several articles in peer reviewed science journals which were ID ==
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| − | [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2640&program=CSC Articles Supportive of Intelligent Design Published in Peer-Reviewed Scientific Journals]
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| − | Ø. A. Voie, "Biological function and the genetic code are interdependent," Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, Vol 28(4) (2006): 1000-1004.
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| − | John A. Davison, “A Prescribed Evolutionary Hypothesis,” Rivista di Biologia/Biology Forum 98 (2005): 155-166.
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| − | S.C. Meyer, “The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories,” Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, 117(2) (2004): 213-239.
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| − | M.J. Behe and D.W. Snoke, “Simulating Evolution by Gene Duplication of Protein Features That Require Multiple Amino Acid Residues,” Protein Science, 13 (2004): 2651-2664.
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| − | D. A. Axe, “Estimating the Prevalence of Protein Sequences Adopting Functional Enzyme Folds,” Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 341 (2004): 1295–1315.
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| − | W.-E. Lönnig & H. Saedler, “Chromosome Rearrangements and Transposable Elements,” Annual Review of Genetics, 36 (2002): 389-410.
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| − | D.K.Y. Chiu & T.H. Lui, “Integrated Use of Multiple Interdependent Patterns for Biomolecular Sequence Analysis,” International Journal of Fuzzy Systems, 4(3) (September 2002): 766-775.
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| − | M.J. Denton, J.C. Marshall & M. Legge, (2002) “The Protein Folds as Platonic Forms: New Support for the pre-Darwinian Conception of Evolution by Natural Law,” Journal of Theoretical Biology 219 (2002): 325-342.
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| − | D. A. Axe, “Extreme Functional Sensitivity to Conservative Amino Acid Changes on Enzyme Exteriors,” Journal of Molecular Biology, Vol. 301 (2000): 585-595.
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| − | [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:18, 24 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :Can you explain in your own words how each paper supports ID, or are you just taking the DI's word for it? [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 18:19, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::It will take me some time to review all of these, so I will get back to you. What I will look for is that they are published in a peer review science journal, address topics that are science and used Intelligent Design to make their conclusions. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 18:20, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::Blast! Beat me to it. Obviously the one from Rivista di Biologia isn't legit, as said above. Behe, too, is obviously suspect. Also, the "Higher Taxonomic" etc. is already mentioned in the article as the one peer reviewed ID article. Perhaps you could read the other articles and explain how they support ID: I don't really feel like taking the Discovery Institute at face value.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:21, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Conservative, I think it's impolite to revert until other people have looked at those and agreed.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:22, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ...aaaaand it's protected again.-[[User:AmesG|AmesG]] 18:23, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :I'm familiar with the Behe/Snoke paper. Two minor details: one, it's an argument against evolution, not for ID. Two, what they actually managed to prove was that IC systems can evolve in a reasonable timeframe, which is the exact opposite of what they were going for. [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 18:24, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::::Please see the summary of the above articles located here. [http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB/index.php?command=view&id=2640&program=CSC here] [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 18:25, 24 March 2007 (EDT)conservative
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| − | :::::I will NOT review these articles UNTIL the page is unprotected and returned to the consensus version. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 18:26, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :::::I'll take that as an admission that you are indeed just taking the DI's word for it, shall I? [[User:Tsumetai|Tsumetai]] 06:34, 26 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Ø. A. Voie, "Biological function and the genetic code are interdependent," Chaos, Solitons and Fractals, Vol 28(4) (2006): 1000-1004.
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| − | W.-E. Lönnig & H. Saedler, “Chromosome Rearrangements and Transposable Elements,” Annual Review of Genetics, 36 (2002): 389-410.
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| − | D.K.Y. Chiu & T.H. Lui, “Integrated Use of Multiple Interdependent Patterns for Biomolecular Sequence Analysis,” International Journal of Fuzzy Systems, 4(3) (September 2002): 766-775.
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| − | M.J. Denton, J.C. Marshall & M. Legge, (2002) “The Protein Folds as Platonic Forms: New Support for the pre-Darwinian Conception of Evolution by Natural Law,” Journal of Theoretical Biology 219 (2002): 325-342.
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| − | The following papers are the ones that I am not immediately familiar with. JAD's work is out, the Axe work does NOT support intelligent design, the behe snoke paper also supports evolutionary theory. This is whats left. Anyone familiar with these works? [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 19:22, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ==Lying for Jesus: the American Taliban==
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| − | This page is a joke, this site is a joke. I am done. There are many people here that thing they can do something with this site, do not be fooled. I thought there was hope, there is not. Give up on it. Turn your back on it. These fascist are not worth your time. [[User:Tmtoulouse|Tmtoulouse]] 19:55, 24 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | == Kitzmiller trap. ==
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| − | The first paragrah used to say:
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| − | ''The theory on intelligent design leaves the identity of the intelligent cause open, since this question is not accessible by scientific investigation [http://www.ideacenter.org/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/1341].''
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| − | Now it says:
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| − | ''Many design theorists leave the identity of the intelligent cause open.[2]''
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| − | This phrasing is problematic, since it helps opponents of intelligent design, such as in Kitzmiller vs. Dover. They say that ID is repackaged creationism. To not fall into this trap all it is essential for the theory to leave the intelligent cause open. And that is exactly what all theorists do. When they speak as private person, and not as scientist, they often admit that they think that is is [[God]], but as theorists they '''all''' leave it open. And with good reason, because otherwise you kind of agree with the Kitzmiller party that intelligent design is not science but religous. I would strongly sugggest to revert the current version to the old version. [[User:Order| Order]] 25 March, 17:10 (AEST)
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| − | The reason the question is not accessible by scientific investigation is because the designer is in the realm of the supernatural. Science is not capable of investigating the supernatural.
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| − | Regardless of how you word it, the intelligent designer is the ultimate reason ID isn’t science because ID theory '''requires the intervention''' of this designer. A designer who, in the end, must be supernatural. This is one of the reasons that ID doesn’t get as much support as many of the editors here would like.
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| − | Is it really right to change the wording to make this less apparent to the reader? [[User:Land Dweller| Land Dweller]] 26 March, 03:35 (EDT)
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| − | So, you suggest to leave the Kitzmiller trap open because interlligent design cannot possibly be science, no matter how you word it? [[User:Order]] 27 March
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| − | :The debate is between
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| − | :#Those who call ID a form of creationism and want it kept out of public schools
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| − | :#Those who call ID a legitimate topic of scientific discussion and want it to be allowed in public schools that wish to include it
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| − | :Let's create an article (or section) on the [[Intelligent Design controversy]]. (Full disclosure: I'm "on probation" at Wikipedia for trying to create a neutral article there about this.)
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| − | :We should present all the arguments (like E. Scott's) against; but also all the arguments for. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 13:10, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | ::The "old" version - ''The theory on intelligent design leaves the identity of the intelligent cause open, since this question is not accessible by scientific investigation''
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| − | ::This begs the question - ''why'' is the question of who/what the intelligent designer "not accessible" by scientific investigation? If it is a space alien why could science not investigate it? That "old" version does not make a lick of sense. [[User:Miles|Miles]] 13:53, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Perhaps science has been defined so as to exclude consideration supernatural causes. But the [[scientific method]] as I originally learned it in school had no such limitation. It might be more accurate to say that [[physical science]] looks only at the [[natural world]] seen as being governed by [[natural law]].
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| − | :Scientific methods of investigation can be (and have been) used to examine the supernatural. I believe [[Harry Houdini]] spent a lot of time on this, revealing fraudulant [[spiritualist]]s and [[medium]]s who conducted fake [[seance]]s. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 16:15, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | User:Order, in answer to your Kitzmiller trap question, I like the old version of the statement
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| − | :''The theory on intelligent design leaves the identity of the intelligent cause open, since this question is not accessible by scientific investigation.'' for the reason stated below.
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| − | It offers the reason why ID proponents make no attempt to identity the designer or to learn anything about the abilities, motives or mechanisms used by the designer or designers. If ID proponents openly discussed the nature of the designer (who they generally believe to be God), it would be obvious to everybody that ID is just a new form of creation science. I think the reader should be informed of this reason because it is an important aspect of ID. [[User:Land Dweller|Land Dweller]] 16:12, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | :Can you supply a source for this assertion? Who (besides you) makes this argument? --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] 16:17, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
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| − | Sure, Ed. Although many prominent pro-evolution figures in the evolution creation debate
| + | ::What part of the reference says that? |
| − | believe ID is a new form of creationism, the only source I could easily find was Barbara
| + | ::*"Dembski and Wells argue calmly and convincingly that intelligent design theory is empirically testable (in spite of Darwinists' shrill protests to the contrary) by indicating precisely what it would take to refute the theory, namely a clear demonstration that systems exhibiting irreducible complexity with specified complexity can in fact arise spontaneously by purely material processes" |
| − | Forrest’s expert report used in the Kitzmiller v Dover trial. I couldn’t find a copy
| + | ::I do not see how indicating precisely what it would take to refute the theory is an [[argument from ignorance]]. Please explain. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 14:18, 12 April 2011 (EDT) |
| − | online, but here is a part of the first paragraph.
| + | :::I don't quite understand why Mr. Poor's edit summary was "to DMorris" unless he took the use of the word "also" as an indicator of me agreeing with Celigans, but I just struck out also to clear up any confusion. All I did was rightfully criticize atheism. [[User:DMorris|DMorris]] 21:11, 13 April 2011 (EDT) |
| | + | :::The problem I have with this reference is that I don't see how showing that systems exhibiting irreducible complexity can arise spontaneously by purely material processes would refute ID. It might strengthen the case for evolution, but it would in no way rule out intelligent design. Therefore I don't see how it could be considered a test. Starting the article with quite a bold statement (that intelligent design is empirically testable) and backing it up with a weak reference doesn't set a good tone for the article as a whole. --[[User:JayFrancis|JayFrancis]] 21:58, 19 July 2011 (EDT) |
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| − | "ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the
| + | With regards to the reference at hand: Wells' book has been disregarded as psuedo-science by the scientific community at large, and its continued existence and verification is due only to the constant circulation amongst creationists. Most of its arguments have been thoroughly refuted. |
| − | only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for
| + | Further, it argues from the inane position that ID needs to be refuted, not proven, and that irreducible complexity is in some way this test that totally verifies ID. Irreducible complexity is not definitive proof of ID (nor is it right, numerous tests have proven it to be untrue), the same way vestigial organs, DNA records, and a gigantic fossil record that supports our understanding of evolution, etc. etc. are not definitive proof of evolution. |
| − | the natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief. In addition, my
| + | :Did you read the book? [[User:Karajou|Karajou]] 01:24, 5 August 2011 (EDT) |
| − | research reveals that ID is not science, but the newest variant of traditional
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| − | American creationism. With only a few exceptions, it continues the usual
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| − | complaints of creationists against the theory of evolution and comprises
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| − | virtually all the elements of traditional creationism."
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| − | [[User:Land Dweller|Land Dweller]] 18:09, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | ::The remarks of Celigans above provide delicious food for thought, if one is interested in understanding the sorts of arguments which atheists and materialists typically use against ID - all erroneous, of course. But they as they are not supplied here with the intention of making our ID article more trustworthy, they are out of place. |
| | + | ::*They can make them on a debate page, if they want to fight it out in the open (see [[Conservapedia:Debate Topics]]) |
| | + | ::*We could analyze these erroneous remarks and present them in a section on typical hostile responses to ID. |
| | | | |
| − | Oops! Somehow I turned on this boxed format.
| + | ::If we analyze typical arguments offered by ID opponents, we find several logical fallacies, included the old favorite "first refuge of scoundrels": the [[strawman attack]], i.e., putting words in your opponent's mouth. |
| − | [[User:Land Dweller|Land Dweller]] 18:14, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | ::* The writer pretends that ID has argued ''that since there is no evidence against intelligent design, it must be true.'' |
| | + | ::*:Of course he gives no reference for this, because no one has said this but ID '''opponents''' (and only as a debate tactic) |
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| | + | ::I could go on, but I won't unless someone shows some interest. --[[User:Ed Poor|Ed Poor]] <sup>[[User talk:Ed Poor|Talk]]</sup> 12:59, 3 December 2011 (EST) |
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| − | User:Miles, it’s true that it would be within the realm of science to investigate a space alien designer, but no prominent proponent of ID believes the designer is an alien. Nearly all of them believe it is God who is clearly supernatural.
| + | == SETI == |
| | + | I'd like to ask for permission to add following edit: |
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| − | It does no good to say the designer is a space alien. If said alien possessed any irreducibly complex systems, such as an eye or immune system, then it too could not evolve through natural processes alone. You then have to investigate who designed the alien. Eventually you are trying to investigate a God. [[User:Land Dweller|Land Dweller]] 16:32, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | Proponents of ID [[theory]] point out that the [[genetic code]] stored in [[organic]] [[cell]]s and perceived by contemporary [[science]] as [[digital]] [[information]]<ref name="Information Content">{{Cite web |
| | + | | title = Information Content of Individual Genetic Sequences, US patent 5867402 |
| | + | | url = http://www.ccrnp.ncifcrf.gov/~toms/paper/ri/latex/ |
| | + | | author = Thomas D. Schneider |
| | + | | publisher = Journal of Theoretical Biology |
| | + | | date = 1999 December 23 |
| | + | |accessdate = 2011-12-03 |
| | + | | page = 189 (4): 427-441, 1997 |
| | + | |quote=With these tools [[information theory]] now provides a common framework for investigating many aspects of genetic sequences.}}</ref> complies with the criterion on intelligent cause detection within the [[SETI]] (Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence) research program. <ref name=”SICell”>{{cite book|author=[[Stephen C. Meyer]]|title=Signature in the Cell: DNA and the evidence for Intelligent Design|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=n4iaNwAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Stephen+C.+Meyer%22&hl=en&ei=T_3ZTviXJsOK4gSj4eXMDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6wEwAA|page=344|quote=NASA’s presupposes that any specified information embedded in electromagnetic signals coming from space would indicate an intelligent source. …|publisher=HarperOne|year=2010|accessdate=2011-12-03}}</ref><ref name=”SETI”>{{cite web|title=SETI FAQs: How do you know if you've detected an intelligent, extraterrestrial signal?| url=http://www.seti.org/faq|quote=*Project Phoenix, run by the SETI Institute, was the most ambitious search for extraterrestrial intelligence ever undertaken. * How do you know if you've detected an '''intelligent''', extraterrestrial signal? |
| | + | The main feature distinguishing signals produced by a transmitter from those produced by natural processes is their spectral width…. Such narrow-band signals are what all SETI experiments look for. Other tell-tale characteristics include a signal that is completely polarized '''or the existence of coded information''' on the signal. …|accessdate=2011-12-03}}</ref><references/> |
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| − | :I think you are missing the point of ID's deliberate lack of identification of a designer. It makes an argument, based on [[irreducible complexity]], that life shows signs of having been designed. It stops there, because of legal requirements. | + | at the end of section "The Capacity of Intelligent Causes" (pls.remove then "references" template at the end included in here just for illustrative purposes)--[[User:AK|AK]] 06:43, 3 December 2011 (EST) |
| | + | ::::I like the code part, but not a big fan of SETI. Will work to get code part in. can mention that SETI assumes evolution/abiogenesis which is wrong but coded information nevertheless meets SETI. I can work on this in 2012. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] 06:56, 3 December 2011 (EST) |
| | + | :::::I'm not a big fan of SETI either, but the point is that they regard "the existence of coded information" as criterion to attribute signal to intelligent cause, and DNA and RNA sequences in cell are clearly passing this criterion, unless mainstream science references to genetic code should be denied.--[[User:AK|AK]] 15:51, 3 December 2011 (EST) |
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| − | :You seem to be saying (along with E. Scott) that ID advocates' motivation for advancing this scientific argument is "part and parcel" of the theory; and that therefore it is a religious argument and/or religous theory. Is this what you are saying? | + | == ID and formal logic == |
| | + | Another proposition: |
| | + | From perspective of [[formal logic]], the argument of advocates of ID can be based on following premises: |
| | + | *'''Premise 1:''' In spite of through research, no purely material causes have been discovered that could be used to demonstrate their capability to produce high volumes of functionally specific information. |
| | + | *'''Premise 2:''' It is possible to demonstrate that high volumes of functionally specific information can be produced by intelligent causes. Intelligence is in fact as of now the only known cause of complex functionality. |
| | + | *'''Conclusion:''' From the perspective of known cause-and-effect structure of the world, the intelligent design is the most causally adequate explanation for the origin of the functionally specific information present in an organic cell.<ref name=”SICell”>{{cite book|author=[[Stephen C. Meyer]]|title=Signature in the Cell: DNA and the evidence for Intelligent Design|url=http://books.google.com/books?id=n4iaNwAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Stephen+C.+Meyer%22&hl=en&ei=T_3ZTviXJsOK4gSj4eXMDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=book-thumbnail&resnum=1&ved=0CDEQ6wEwAA|page=378|quote=But the argument…takes the following form...|publisher=HarperOne|year=2010|accessdate=2011-12-03}}</ref><references/>--[[User:AK|AK]] 21:39, 5 December 2011 (EST) |
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| − | :::My point is to say the identity of the desiner is off limits to science is irrational and therefore does not belong in the article. Now, if they have proven the identity is supernatural or a diety, that might be different but so far those claims have not been proven. Otherwise you're basically saying "what goes up must come down, but it is beyond the realm of science to explain 'why'". it is also kind of crazy to suggest "I have a scientific theory that is beyond the realm of science" [[User:Miles|Miles]] 17:06, 27 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | == Dawkins agnostic == |
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| − | ::::In answer to your first statement: The existence of a designer is a part of the IC argument. It says natural evolution couldn’t do it so the designer did it. I don’t understand what you mean by “It stops there, because of legal requirements.” I think they stop there because acknowledging the supernatural nature of the designer makes it clear that ID is essentially religious. | + | Other articles now say that Dawkins is an agnostic, not an atheist. Should this one be amended along similar lines?--[[User:CPalmer|CPalmer]] 10:26, 28 February 2012 (EST) |
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| − | ::::In answer to you second statement: Yes. Since they specifically say that a supernatural designer (God), created the eye, the immune system, etc., ID falls outside realm of science. See my above quote from Barbara Forrest in my previous comment.
| + | == Double Standards for Intelligent Design == |
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| − | ::::In answer to your third statement: I agree with you. It’s unscientific to say the designer is off limits to science. Nobody can scientifically prove the existence, or non existence, of a deity. I also agree that it makes no sense to say “I have a scientific theory that is beyond the realm of science”. However I am not the one saying that. Footnote 2 in the Intelligent Design article refers to an IDEA website. They are supporters of ID and they say this under Actual Arguments of Leading ID Proponents. <blockquote>“The consensus of ID proponents is intelligent design theory does not allow one to identify the designer as natural or supernatural, because to do so would go beyond the limits of scientific inquiry.”</blockquote> ID proponents make this statement even though this designer is required to make systems that are Irreducibly Complex, and it is acknowledged by some ID theorists that the designer is supernatural.
| + | One of the 15 questions for evolution is "Why is a fundamentally religious idea, a dogmatic belief system that fails to explain the evidence, taught in science classes?" Creation Ministries International claims that evolution is not testable (and thus not science) for the following reasons: |
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| − | ::::If the opponents of ID said the designer is beyond the limits of scientific inquiry, I would agree that that statement should be in Criticism of ID section. Since it's the proponents saying this, it is appropriate to put it in the main part of the article.
| + | *Evolution does not predict anything |
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| − | ::::When I read User:Order’s comment about which statement he thought should be in the article, wrote a comment expressing preference for the first one. I didn’t intend for it to turn into a debate.
| + | *Evolution makes certain a priori or metaphysical assumptions |
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| − | ::::I agree with User:Ed Poor that there should be a separate section in the ID article about the criticisms and controversy surrounding ID. [[User:Land Dweller|Land Dweller]] 20:08, 28 March 2007 (EDT)
| + | However, replace evolution with intelligent design and the same objections exist. Intelligent design does not predict anything, since presumably we don't know what the designer will do. And intelligent design makes the assumption of an intelligent designer. Thus, by Creation Ministries International's standards, intelligent design is just as unscientific as evolution. [[User:RaymondZ|RaymondZ]] 11:19, 5 January 2013 (EST) |
