Difference between revisions of "Talk:Essay:Extraterrestrial Life and the Bible"

Latest revision as of 13:28, May 28, 2008

Logic

If I were a carpenter, and I said to you "I made this chair", would that rule out the possibility that I had ever made any other chairs in my career?

By the logic of this essay, the answer is "yes". Nematocyte 11:08, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

If I were a carpenter, and you were my lady, would you think I had other women in my life? --Ed Poor 11:35, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

Clarification

Excuse me if I don't understood this well. Is TerryH saying that the existence of Extraterrestrial races implies that the Bible is wrong and vice versa, that if the Bible is right then Extraterrestrial races don't exist?.Crossx14 00:31, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Yes. The very existence of an extraterrestrial race implies that Jesus Christ would have to have died twice—once for us and another time for that race. Or if that other race never fell, then God would have told them to stay at least a hundred parsecs away from us.--TerryH^Talk 09:36, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Excuse me on more time. I don't know about you, but I'm a Christian and I can't agree with you because such categorical affirmation is pretty dangerous for my faith, it's very risky. I could understand your point if you are an Atheist trying to defy my faith, but if you're a Christian too, I think your perspective is counterproductive. Remember Galileo's trial and how harmful it was, and it still is, for the Christian faith. I mean, what if an ET appeared tomorrow and said "Hello"?. Should we throw the Bible to the trash along with 2000 years of Christianity and 6000 years of Judaism?. (Atheists would smile with pleasure). I don't think so, I'm not ready for that. Instead, as a Christian, in order to strengthen my faith, before being charged of lack of imagination, I'd better try to imagine a way to make the Bible compatible with ETs (just in case), to include them, not to exculde them because perhaps by exculding them I'd be excluding myself (I mean isolating myself, becoming a kind of tiny marginal fundamentalist sect, easily destructible because of being separated from the society). That would be a prudent and conservative perspective, not a reckless one. I think it's too risky to stretch my faith far away from what is matter of the Christian faith, its core (Jesus, his existence, his divinity, his teachings, etc). ETs don't matter. They could exist or they could not, but none of both possibilities would invalidate my faith. If I say "to be Christian is to not believe in ETs" I'm creating a new dogma, a superfluous one, hence a false one, I'm adding a new card on a castle of cards upon moving sands. It's too risky. Just a blow and the whole castle of false dogmas will collapse along with my faith. I'd never say ETs are "kosher" nor ETs aren't "kosher" (OK, allowed). For me, to be Christian is to believe in Jesus, and a Christian person could or could not believe in ETs without to stop of being Christian, because my faith has nothing to do with believing in ETs or not, it is not incompatible with them. For me, to be Christian has more to do with being compassionate, which is incompatible with some well known Politics, policies and politicians. You know what I mean, I wrote an Essay about this right here. That is my opinion. Best regards. Crossx14 23:47, 24 April 2008 (EDT)

Your greatest error lies in accepting as truth the blandishments of "modern science." The same (pseudo)scientists who tell you that "with a hundred jillion stars in our galaxy alone, intelligent life beyond the earth is an odds-on favorite" are the same ones telling you that "the present is the key to the past" here on earth. And they're the same ones telling you about dark matter and dark energy comprising a whopping 96% of the known universe.

For your information, the Sun exists in a very narrow "habitable ring" that might be no broader than the difference between the periapsis and apoapsis of the sun's orbit around the galactic core. Furthermore, the sun is in a sparsely populated portion of the galaxy, away from most of the very harmful radiation that stars put out.

I am, in short, ready to declare that ET's do not exist. So I don't need to prepare for "ET" saying "hello." And if he did, then he is a demon anyway. Demons, I'm sure, would love to manifest to an atheistic scientist as an ET, complete with his/her/its own scoutcraft. (And did you ever notice that nearly all the Hollywood versions of ET's look a little ugly?)

We don't need to prepare for the "case" (as in "just in") of the absurd.--TerryH^Talk 00:08, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

I'm with TerryH on this one. You're correct, Crossx14, that this is not an article of faith. Christians are Christians regardless of what they believe on this issue. But the idea of alien beings is definitely incompatible with biblical teaching, even though it's not explicitly denied in the Bible (just like the Trinity is biblical teaching although it's not explicitly mentioned). See also here for another treatment of this. Philip J. Rayment 04:22, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Columbus

I hope you weren't serious about arriving aliens treating us as Columbus did the natives. In which case we can expect to be raped, pillaged, plundered, executed for our religious beliefs and then die from some strange alien disease? It might be great if they were like Albert Schweitzer, but if they come barging in here like the so-called civilised explorers of old, we, my friend, are up a certain creek without a paddle. DPearce 10:01, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Laying aside your unfounded accusations against Christopher Columbus, remember that I also said that an ET scout might have a commission from a commander more like Alexander the Great or Napoleon Bonaparte or maybe even Adolf Hitler.--TerryH^Talk 10:08, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Unfounded? So the decimation of the local population by smallpox and syphilis after his arrival was a coincidence? Not to mention persecution by the Catholic Church. However, that was made tongue in cheek, but seriously, if there are beings out there with the technology to travel here and they aren't exactly of a friendly nature, then it doesn't matter who they take after - we're in trouble. A bit like that Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man." DPearce 10:13, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Now your "serious" point is well-taken. It is exactly my point. By what arrogance does anyone suppose that we could "take those guys" if they showed up? Of course, I don't believe that they will, because I see no evidence of "them." Even Stephen Hawking has given up on the idea, after Project SETI has utterly failed to turn up a convincing positive finding.--TerryH^Talk 11:35, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

So, Terry, are you saying that the Europeans did not do these things against the Native population of the Americas?AliceBG 10:24, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Yes. And if you have any proof otherwise, you'd better show it--and probably take this to Talk:Christopher Columbus, which is where this belongs.--TerryH^Talk 13:16, 25 April 2008 (EDT)

Oh dear - what rubbish are they teaching the kids these days? Here's some sources (that took about 30 seconds to find) that might enlighten you. [latinamericanhistory.suite101.com/article.cfm/genocide_in_the_new_world] [1] [2] [3] [4] Given his history of atrocities, he's been compared to Himmler (amongst others) by historians, so sorry to burst your bubble, but denying his genocide is something akin to denying the Holocaust and immensely offensive to the indigenous inhabitants of the Americas. Columbus paved the way for the later Conquistadors to commit equally heinous crimes. He also started the slave trade from the Americas. As he said in his own diary, writing of the native inhabitants, “They would make fine servants. With 50 men we could subjugate them all and make them do whatever we want.” He proceeded to do just that by kidnapping 25 natives and taking them back to Spain. When Columbus returned to Hispaniola in 1493, he had an unquenchable lust for gold and violently forced the native Arawak Indians to provide impossible amounts. He enslaved 1,500 inhabitants and required all persons 14 years and older to collect a certain quantity of gold every three months. To ensure the cooperation of the Indians, Columbus made examples of those who refused his demands by cutting off their ears, hands and noses. Oh, by the way, you do know that Columbus didn't discover North America, right? He only ever got as far as the Caribbean and claimed to his dying day he'd found Asia, not a new continent. DPearce 06:23, 26 April 2008 (EDT)

Vatican statement

From http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens_3

Believing that the universe may contain alien life does not contradict a faith in God, the Vatican's chief astronomer said in an interview published Tuesday.

In the interview by the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes said that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures. Ruling out the existence of aliens would be like "putting limits" on God's creative freedom, he said.

--Rutm 17:00, 13 May 2008 (EDT)

That's nice. And they're still wrong. Try to remember that the Vatican does not speak for all Christians and is not even necessarily the most reliable source.--TerryH^Talk 17:54, 13 May 2008 (EDT)