Talk:Bible

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Contents

What the serpent said

In Genesis 3:1, the serpent questions what God said concerning the tree of life. "Com'on, Eve...did God really say you can't eat from that tree?" One can transliterate this verse any way they want, but the meaning remains the same: Satan did not attack God personally, but he attacked His word, questioning what He said, and trying to make Eve question it too, which she ultimately did.

Unfortunately, the situation today regarding the Bible is pretty much the same, and it caused some heated debates here. This article is about the description and history of the Bible, nothing more. Textual criticism belongs in a separate article. Karajou 19:00, 13 April 2007 (EDT)

La or Ta

Look, Karajou. Let's be reasonable about this. The fact is that la is not a definite article in Greek. Not in Ancient Greek, not in Koine Greek and not in Modern Greek. If you do a Google search of "definite article" Greek, you'll get dozens of pages that all show the exact same declension. Or go and look it up in a dictionary or grammar. Biblia is neuter plural, thus the correct article is ta - ton biblion, ta biblia.

This is not a question of doctrine or scripture or exegesis or anything. It is a simple question of what the definite article is in Greek. AKjeldsen 16:55, 15 April 2007 (EDT)

I agree with you as to the definite article in Greek, and I do agree with you on being reasonable. If the term ta biblia was used in the 2nd century AD to describe the books of the Bible as a whole, I most certainly will change the article to reflect that. I am going to hit the books tomorrow at MTSU, and I will go through many works by experts in ancient languages (the term has to be 2nd century Greek, not 20th century Greek); the results of which and where they came from will be posted. Karajou 22:28, 15 April 2007 (EDT)
That sounds like a lot of work for one entirely uncontroversial detail. Just look it up in in A Greek grammar of the New Testament and other early Christian literature by Friedrich Blass et.al., or A Grammar of New Testament Greek by James Hope Moulton et.al. AKjeldsen 11:36, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
Well, since you researched it, I'm going to post the info immediately. All I need now is the page numbers of the books where they are located (as per MLA), plus publisher and date published for the reference section. Karajou 12:30, 16 April 2007 (EDT)
Very well, if you insist. They're in my office, and it's after hours here. I'll get them for you sometime tomorrow or the day after that. AKjeldsen 12:42, 16 April 2007 (EDT)

Still waiting on the page numbers. I found the publishers, and I used the American published version of the Blass work as the source. Karajou 22:24, 17 April 2007 (EDT)

Here we go:
Moulton, James Hope. A Grammar of New Testament Greek. Wilbert Francis Howard, ed. Vol 2. Edinburgh: T. & T. Clark, 1920. P. 117.
Blass, Friedrich and A. Debrunner. Grammatik des Neutestamentlichen Griechisch. Friedrich Rehkopf, ed. 14th edition. Göttingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1976. §249-276.
Bauer, Walter. Griechisch-Deutsches Wörterbuch zu den Scriften des Neuen Testaments und der frühchristlichen Litteratur. Kurt Aland and Barbara Aland, eds. 6th edition. Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 1988. Heading βιβλίον, columns 281-82.
Moulton has an excellent table of the inflections of the definite article. If more information is needed, Blass contains more than anyone would ever want to know about articles in Κοινὴ. And in case there is still doubt, Bauer shows quite clearly that the correct article for βιβλίον is το, hence τα βιβλία. AKjeldsen 15:06, 18 April 2007 (EDT)
Much appreciated; in fact, the German titles have been included as well in the reference section. Karajou 16:05, 18 April 2007 (EDT)

I come in late on the discussion, probably after the fact, but the Greek plural for "the Scriptures" is probably much effected by the underlying current Hebrew. Though "the writings" (which is what the Scriptures means), is used for the 3rd compilation of the three part title, The Torah, the Prophets, and the Writings, it is also used for all three together."HaKetuvim". This word is in the plural form, and is most naturaly translated, "the writings" or "the Scriptures", which would make its appearance, at a later stage, in the Greek "ta biblia". "ton Biblia" (ta biblia in plural) properly means "the book" reflecting a stage that the writing (graphe) was no longer on scrolls (megilah). The word, and the way behind it, was taken from the city of Biblos (the ancient Geval) on the coast of what is now Lebanon where the book form came to be as opposed to the previous scroll form. There was another Hebrew word then in use for the whole Old Testament as well as "ketuvim". This is the word "Mikr'a", which properly means "reading". The frequent use of the word Scriptures in the New Testament probably reflects the Hebrew underlying HaKetuvim, which itself denoted some sort of closed canon of what was considered Holy Writings. The Old Testament that we know

Just a comment on the Greek words now no longer in contention "La" or "Ta", I don't really know what fed into the idea of "La" (which is not Greek}, but "La" does mean something in Hebrew and does possibly bear on the original discussion. "La"( which is the normal contraction of Le (to) and Ha (the), in front of Scriptures means "to the Scriptures" or "pertaining to the Scriptures"Bert Schlossberg 08:22, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

Article Name

This name of this article should be The Holy Bible. Epicon 02:46, 21 May 2007 (EDT)

New American Standard Bible

Who created the NASB? The Catholic Church[1] or the Lockman foundation?Discussion on this matter. Hannibal ad portas 13:34, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

This also makes for interesting perusal Fox 13:40, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, I didn't realise there were 2 New American Bibles (Standard and Catholic). Hannibal ad portas 21:56, 23 May 2007 (EDT)

Request SysOp

Would it be possible, and agreable, to add another translation/version to the list currently held on the page? The version I would like to propose adding is the Complete Jewish Bible, which is the version used by the majority of Messianic Jews. Some brief blurbs can be seen here and here. Fox 10:32, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Concordia Self Study Bible

Please add Concordia Self Study Bible to version. FunnyBoy 23:50, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Changes Needed

The article appears to be locked, so here's some changes that need to be made:

  • Intro paragraph: Assumes every Bible adheres to the Palestinian canon; some do not. Some sects have three parts to their Bible: The OT, the Apocrypha, and the NT. Some have an OT, an NT, and an Appendix. Some have a larger OT than others.
  • The Old Testament: Again, assumes Palestinian canon. The Tanakh is not the same thing as the Old Testament; it coincides with the OT of some sects, but it is a subset of the OT of other sets.
  • Tyndale: Says that Tyndale's translation led "finally to the KJV." Since there have been many revisions/new translations using the KJV as a base, one might say that the Tyndale stream has not yet reached its end. Where it will finally lead, no one knows. Recent Bibles claiming a Tyndale genealogy include the NRSV and the ESV.
  • KJV: The "Textus Receptus" was not a translation (except for a few portions of Rev backtranslated from Latin), and it is arguable whether a Textus Receptus even existed at that time.
  • KJV: The possessive form of it should be its.
  • KJV: Shakespeare did not use the KJV throughout most of his life, and it is doubtful that he used it very much near the end. He would've used the Geneva or Bishop's Bibles.
  • KJV: Milton probably used the Geneva, not the KJV.
  • KJV: Ref number 5 is a broken link. Suggest removing it until a source for the quote can be found.

--All Fish Welcome 09:59, 18 September 2007 (EDT)

Regarding your first two points, I think as it stands the current article is specifically about the Christian Bible. We Jews, of course also use the term the Bible to refer to our own scriptures (needless to say, exclusive of the NT).
It's a matter of terminology. Christians say the Bible meaning OT + NT. Jews say the Bible and mean a different, but mostly overlapping set of "books". The Judeo-Christian heritage is based heavily on the first five books of the Bible. Christian study materials for young children (see Sunday School) draw heavily on Old Testament stories: Creation, Garden of Eden, Noah and the flood, Moses in the bulrushes & leading the people of God to freedom, etc. --Ed Poor Talk 10:10, 18 September 2007 (EDT)
Ignoring the role of the Reformation in redefining the canon is rather misleading; a niave reader would assume that the Vulgate was correctly defined by the opening paragraph as having those books and no others. Canuck 22:10, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Best-selling book?

This comment, in the first paragraph of the article, really trivializes the Bible. The Bible is not a consumer good, OK? Please remove that comment. Andy 09:49, 17 November 2007 (EST)

No. Karajou 10:20, 17 November 2007 (EST)

Please remove categories

Please remove categories religion and Book of Worship, as they are supercategories of bible. Also, if you could change the format to [[Category:Bible|*]] so that bible appears at the top of the list of that category. Thanks. TheEvilSpartan 12:54, 8 January 2008 (EST)

Suggestions

As per TerryH's ideas regarding film adaptations (See my talk page for that.), I feel we should list the film adaptations of the Bible. Also, another English Bible, and the one I use: [www.skepticsannotatedbible.com The Skeptic's Annotated Bible]. Surely, it can't hurt to list that as well, can it? Barikada 00:07, 31 January 2008 (EST)

I think we should stick to listing versions with credibility. Philip J. Rayment 21:50, 1 March 2008 (EST)
With what respect is due, Philip J. Rayment, I believe that the King James Version of the Holy Bible is, in fact, a version with credibility. Barikada 15:01, 4 March 2008 (EST)
Oh come on! You know full well I was talking about the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, not the AV itself. Philip J. Rayment 21:10, 4 March 2008 (EST)
Original version of this made no sense. In any case, Philip, do you have an issue with annotations? Barikada 21:58, 4 March 2008 (EST)
With those annotations, yes. Philip J. Rayment 00:42, 5 March 2008 (EST)
What is your issue? Are they factually incorrect, or do you simply disagree with the opinion presented? Barikada 00:50, 5 March 2008 (EST)
More like logically fallacious. Here's an analysis of a few from Genesis 1[2]:
  • "(1:1-2:3) The Genesis 1 account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science.": This is really a case saying "My view is right, your's is different, so yours is wrong". That's the fallacy of begging the question. The same applies to the next two points for the same verses, so I'll skip them.
  • "(1:3-5, 14-19) ... God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day": So? Is this trying to claim that God cannot make light by any other means? Given that even us humans can, this is a ludicrous claim.
  • "And how could there be "the evening and the morning" on the first day if there was no sun to mark them?": Quite easily. To mark the days you need a rotating Earth and a source of light. The account already mentions that there was a source of light, so what's the problem?
  • "God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.": The Bible says nothing about a "solid firmament". This is an invention, probably due to a misunderstanding of what the Hebrew for "firmament" means. It has nothing to do with "firmness".
  • "(1:11-13) ... Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes ": So? There's two answers to this. First, there was already light, and that's what the plants need, not the sun specifically. Second, they had to survive 24 hours without the sun! Wow! How long do the Skeptics think a plant can survive without light?
That's enough to give you an idea. I skipped a few, mainly because the explanations would have been a bit longer. But essentially, they've said nothing accurate in those first few. The annotations have no credibility.
Philip J. Rayment 05:01, 5 March 2008 (EST)
I might take you seriously if you cited a single fallacy among those, Philip. But, in the interest of fairness, I'll go through and criticise your answers.
1: Yes. It goes against the way things are shown to have happened. How is that fallicious?
2: For one, humans can't, our glorious creations can. For two, yes, that's exactly what it is claiming.
3: No, it says that there was light, not a source of light-- Unless of course you count Yahweh.
4: Then pray tell, what does firmament mean?
5: Not very long. You see, Philip, plants use sunlight in combination with the chloroform in their leaves or needles to create a type of sugar which they use for food. Without this, they'll die rather quickly.
Now then, can you please cite something that is actually a logical fallacy, complete with a mention of what logical fallacy it is? Barikada 21:54, 5 March 2008 (EST)
1. The Bible says it happened one way. Evolutionists say it happened another way. You have two competing accounts, and you are judging the veracity of one account (the biblical one) by comparing it to the other account (the evolutionary one). That is, as I said, the fallacy of begging the question.
2. Humans can. Yes, they have to use tools or "their creations" to do so, but they can. And even if we couldn't, it doesn't follow that God couldn't.
3. If there is light, there must be a source of light, even if that is God Himself.
4. You don't know? How about doing a bit of proper research, instead of just reading Skeptic rubbish?
5. How long is "not very long"? Less than 24 hours?
I did name a logical fallacy, in the first one. Most of the rest would fall under Red Herrings, or Excluded Middles.
Philip J. Rayment 03:23, 6 March 2008 (EST)
1. One is science, supported by years upon years of research, and the other is religion, supported by a book written by bronze agers.
2. Of course, right. Deus ex machina. Arguing against the powers of your deity is futile.
3. Indeed, unless of course we are to interpret the verse as your God creating the concept of light.
4. Tsk, tsk. It is not my job to define your terms.
5. Yes, Phil. Less than 24 hours.
... How do any of them fall under excluded middles? :/ Red herring, maybe, but so much of the Bible is.
Finally, RE: Skeptic "rubbish." Yeah, darn dissenters have never done anything good. Earth's flat, just so you know. Barikada 15:09, 6 March 2008 (EST)

(unindent)1. When two people disagree, the only way to get agreement is to argue from common ground. Arguing that the other's view is wrong because it doesn't fit with your own view is the fallacy of begging the question. I have pointed out above that the first point listed is a case of begging the question, because it is arguing that the Bible is wrong because it doesn't fit with the evolutionary view. Yet your answer, that one (evolution) is science supported by much research, and the other (creation) is based a book written by primitive people, is not an argument from common ground, but from claims of evolutionists. That is, the claims that evolution is science and is supported by much research are not facts, but evolutionary arguments! The same applies to your claim about the Bible. So your attempted rebuttal of my claim that the argument is fallacious because it begs the question also begs the question!

2. Your reply is to try and mock because you have no argument. As you have no argument, you've effectively conceded that the Skeptic argument is invalid.

3. Even if it could be interpreted that way, it doesn't rule out that it can be read another way, so the argument fails. Proposing another possible way of understanding something does not mean that the first way is wrong, yet the skeptic argument requires the first way to be wrong.

4. If you are going to make the claim (which you are implicitly doing by endorsing the Skeptic claim), then yes, it is your job to justify the claim. We are not talking about my terms, but about the correct meaning of a Hebrew word. You (implicitly) claim it to be one thing, so the onus is on you to substantiate that claim, not on me to refute it.

5. I will remind you that I gave two answers to this one. That is, two independent answers. So answering one still leaves the other to be answered before the claim is substantiated. But as for your attempt to refute one of the answers, this site indicates that "most plants [can't] live for more than a few days without at least some light" (my emphasis).

I wouldn't try and use the flat Earth argument if I were you. It doesn't show evolutionists in a particularly flattering light, given that they effectively invented the story to discredit creationists! (Read the Flat Earth article for more.)

Philip J. Rayment 21:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

1. So let me get this straight. One cannot possibly argue that the genesis account is wrong because it has no basis in science?
2. The powers of a deity are unfalsifiable, therefore it is useless to argue against them.
3. Oh. So it is your view that god literally created light-- Everywhere, of course, not in a specific location?
4. Philly, philly. The crud I go through for you. "the vault of heaven; sky" is the definition I got for firmament. Which makes your original response entirely nonsensical.
5. Most plants also would've had stored energy beforehand. A plant that had never been exposed to sunlight would not.
Final: Let me get this straight. Evolutionists went back in time, prodded a bronze ager, and said "Psst... Did you know the Earth is flat?" Barikada 21:29, 6 March 2008 (EST)
1. (Your question has an ambiguity, but I think I know which way you mean it.) No, that's not what I said, but yes, your statement is correct, because you are trying to use science outside its domain, i.e. determining unobservable, untestable past events.
2. In a sense, that's true. That is, Skeptics keep complaining that the creation account is unfalsifiable, yet here we have the Skeptics trying to falsify it! But it's not totally true, because in this case there are arguments that could, in principle, be made, such as arguing that the text does not allow for the explanation I gave. However, the text doesn't disallow the explanation, and you have no grounds for excluding it. You can't defend an argument by complaining that you have no way of defending it!
3. Huh? It is biblical teaching (and therefore my view) that God created light. It is deducible from biblical teaching (and therefore my view) that the light came from a particular direction (which is not the same thins as "in a specific location").
4. Okay, seeing as you've actually gone to the trouble of looking it up, I'll apologise for being misleading. Perhaps the idea of it being solid wasn't "invented" as such, as I think the idea of it being solid did arise inadvertently due to a misunderstanding or something like that. However, I was still correct in claiming that it doesn't mean "solid". Your definition "the vault of heaven" would most likely be a euphemism for "sky", the second part of your definition. In other words, it's still not something solid. Furthermore, anybody who's done a modicum of research on the subject should know that, and it's been pointed out before, so it doesn't excuse the Skeptics for using this at all. The best translation of the word is probably "expanse" (Genesis 1:2 . See here for a detailed study of the issue.
5. First, how do you know that God didn't create them with stored energy? That is presuming something that supports your case rather than seeing if there really is a problem. Second, it still ignores that I gave two independent answers, and you are only attempting to address one of them.
Did you read Flat Earth? Your answer indicates that you didn't, but then it wouldn't be the first time you've distorted something beyond recognition.
Philip J. Rayment 08:32, 7 March 2008 (EST)

Correction and authorship

I believe it is the council of Jamnia not Jemnia.

Also, a reference to what Paul says of scripture 2tim3:16-17 "all scripture is given by god..." and Peter 2Peter1:20-21 "holy men of god spoke as they were moved by the holy ghost" would amplify what the NT says itself about authorship. --Dale77 14:33, 1 March 2008 (EST)

I've fixed the spelling. Your suggestion sounds good. Could you propose some actual wording and say where you think it should go, then I (or someone else) can simply pop it in? Philip J. Rayment 21:38, 1 March 2008 (EST)
2.1.4 Inspiration

Although the old testament is written by many human authors, new testament authors claim that these men were writing under the inspiration of God.

The apostle Paul states in 2 Timothy 3:16 "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness". Similarly the apostle Peter states in 2 Peter 1:20-21 "knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone's own interpretation. For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit."

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dale77 (talk)

Done. I didn't know what Bible version you were quoting from, and the links default to the NIV, so I changed the quotes to that version. Thanks for the great suggestion. Philip J. Rayment 17:53, 2 March 2008 (EST)

Violence

I'm thinking about adding Some Verses about violence in the bible like the Qu'ran page has.Does anyone disagree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Gobber (talk)

And why would you do that when this article does not cover themes? If you feel violence is a part of a story that should be addressed, then do so in the individual books or stories. Learn together 21:29, 3 June 2008 (EDT)

Authorship of Job

The article says that Moses wrote Job. I can't say that I've every heard that, and even if I have, I can't say that it's something that is universally agreed. What's the evidence for Mosaic authorship? Philip J. Rayment 06:03, 2 October 2008 (EDT)

I am not aware of any direct link. I'm assuming the theory would be based on the idea that both are about equally old, although the Bible itself makes no statement or inference in this area. Learn together 11:49, 3 October 2008 (EDT)

Looking for some advise, not sure where to ask

I am trying to learn more about the early Church(es), and the process of Canonization of the bible, but the only sources I'm finding seem to be very "academic" in that "the bible was written by man" way, rather than the presumption that the bible is indeed holy. What I'm looking for is a good history on how and why the various books of the bible were included in the canon, (Nicene Council), but from a true Christian point of view. Can anyone recommend any books or authors who deal with this area?--JeanJacques 16:07, 3 November 2008 (EST)

See here for the Old Testament and here for the New Testament. That second one also recommends this. Philip J. Rayment 20:17, 3 November 2008 (EST)

Sources

Would some one be able to provide links to the bible's sources? -Brargrar 7:49 11 February, 2009.

 ?
  • The Bible was written before there were hyperlinked documents.
  • Much if not all of the Bible was written by eyewitnesses, not by people using pre-existing documents.
Philip J. Rayment 21:48, 10 February 2009 (EST)
I not think that is completely true. Off the top my head, 2 Mc 2:23 clearly states that book itself is an abridgement of a lost five-volume work. The author of Jude in verses 14 and 15 cite a prophecy that is in the apocryphal Book of Enoch (The same Enoch from Gn 5:21-24).
There are other references if you can call them that; throughout Bible authors either quote or refer to reader to lost books like Book of Jasher in Jos 10:13 and 2 Sm 1:18; Book of Wars of the Lord in Nm 21:14. The Book of Jubilees is quoted in Rom 2:29, 9:24, 4:13. Sirach/Ecclesiasticus is quoted Jas 1:19, Lk 1:52, and Mk 4:5, 16-17. There are countless others and study bibles will do a better job than me pointing out references.--Kencaesi 17:46, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I did say "much if not all", but yes, you've proved that it's not all. However, I'll point out that referring to another book is not the same as being based on it, and I think a number of such references are merely that—pointing out that more information can be found in other books. But some will remain as being sources. Nevertheless, much of the Bible would still be eyewitness accounts. Philip J. Rayment 20:55, 12 February 2009 (EST)

error in article

The article states that the Bible has been translated into "nearly every language on Earth" The complete Bible has only been translated into about 400 languages and the New Testament into about 700. There are still thousands of languages that the Bible has not been translated into. This article should also be expanded to include the work involved in translating the Bible. I have a large number of foreign language translations of the Bible and would like to help out on this page. --TedM 22:59, 9 March 2009 (EDT)

Those 400-700 languages cover ... 99% of the world's population? Also, I think your numbers are on the low side.--Andy Schlafly 23:04, 9 March 2009 (EDT)
The numbers are a bit low, at least the NT one, it seems. This site lists complete translations being in 438 languages, and "Testaments" translations in 1,168 languages (apparently in addition to the 438). And yes, they would likely cover the vast majority of the world's population, but the claim that it has been translated into "nearly every language on Earth" is still an overstatement, as worded.
TedM, I've unlocked the page; it has been locked long enough.
Philip J. Rayment 05:38, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

Biblical Views

I would say I am proud not to have any preconceptions about religion, or the lack of it. With this spirit in mind, and a large amount of different educational viewpoints, I decided to read the bible. The overall message of the new testament is a good one (not so much with the old testament), that we should be kind and respect one another. But while this message is one we should all follow, certain things need to be stated. The bible isnt logical, as I've seen many people say. It has many contradictions, things which dont make coherent sence, and stories that can have many different interpritations. Can something about this please be said in the article, in the interest of fairness for all (i.e. the message of the bible). And please dont block me, flame me, or post stupid replys, and bear in mind I have read it, and i can cite opposing statements etc. Oh, and Mr Schlafly, I wouldnt object to a logical conversion attempt, if you agree to civil terms.

PS: I apologise for any bad spelling or grammer, I try my best but dyslexia isnt nice

--Unlikelyconvert 12:47, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Dear Unlikelyconvert, I would say that it is very difficult to say that one doesn't have any preconception about religion. I can't say that for myself. That is why I often pray for God to undeceive me of anything needing it. I remain a believer in Jesus Christ. There is a great deal in the Bible that seems to be self-contradictory, incoherent, etc. The more I go on in study and in life (I am now 71 years old), the more I see that these flaws are only apparent, with very deep and satisfying solutions. I am sure that if you really quest in the right place and the right way, you will be drawn by God to faith in Jesus Christ.Bert Schlossberg 05:34, 21 May 2009 (EDT)

Fixed again

While I did not delete the recent edits of RJJ and Bert, it needed a slight re-arrangement away from a poor format that pulled some of it off-topic. This article is essentially in three parts: 1) a description of the Bible itself (Old and New Testaments and Apocrypha; 2) the authority of the Bible is religious and daily life; 3) a history of the Bible as a document only. Anything else, such as specific textual cricisms of different versions, should be addressed in stand-alone articles. Karajou 10:07, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

Controversies

I have no objection to including the Evangelical version of Bible history, but it should be clearly labeled as such. The earlier part of the article clearly indicates there re multiple viewpoints--and the Evangelical/Fundamentalist one is not held by most Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. I don't see any possible "synthetic" section that would a) assert Moses wrote key books and b) also assert that Moses did NOT write those books. So let's simply keep the theological assumptions clear; Mark Noll has written a lot about them. (My own background includes a lot of Bible study at Notre Dame and Yale, from two quite different perspectives.) RJJensen 11:23, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

If it's clearly stated that "so-and-so wrote this", then I have no problem with it, but the main details should be covered in separate articles. From my standpoint, this article and its structure should be about the three points addressed above, as well as respecting God's work as well. The pic I included of the Torah at the Western Wall should be included as well (or a similar one), as it does illustrate the reverence Jews have for it. Karajou 11:34, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

I fixed the number of books in the OT

I changed

Most Christians, Protestant and Catholic, agree on the books of the New Testament, but the Protestant Bible includes 66 books of the Old Testament

to read

Most Christians, Protestant and Catholic, agree on the 27 books of the New Testament, but the Protestant Bible includes 39 books of the Old Testament ((by Rickswartzentrover)
Good correction. Thanks.--Andy Schlafly 22:25, 20 November 2009 (EST)

Liberal Criticism of the Bible

Would it be ok to add the following section to the main page?

Liberals, atheists, and secularists frequently attack the Bible and Christians by selectively taking certain passages out of context. Such attacks are excellent examples of liberal deceit and fall apart in the face of honest, thoughtful investigation.

Particular favorites of liberals include passages they claim are sexist, such as "Wives should be subordinate to their husbands as to the Lord." (Ephesians 5:22) or "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. She must be quiet." (1 Timothy 2:12). In reality, those passages reflect deliberate misunderstandings and mistranslations, often by liberals themselves. In the first example, for instance, the phrase "subordinate" would be more accurately translated from the Hebrew "לְהַכפִּיף" as "respectful and loving." Of course, even that might be a problem for liberal feminists.

Another group of passages liberals love to quote is those in which God appears to be violent or wrathful. For example, in Genesis 7:23 God causes a great flood which wipes the earth clean of sinners and evil by drowning the corrupt men who have perverted his vision for humanity. However, while liberals who believe in moral relativism may not understand, God was ensuring the future of humanity by destroying a 'false start' who betrayed his vision by engaging in all kinds of perversion and iniquity.

More importantly, since liberals do not accept that Jesus Christ came to redeem mankind for our sins, they do not understand that the perfection of the Old Testament is found in the New Testament and that the real Truth is His word. What this proves is that God is both stern and merciful; He punishes sinners for their crimes against Him, but also offers them a path to redemption through Christ.

Weird typos & other issues in "Authority->Roman Catholic"

I was glancing at the article at noticed how that section contained odd misspellings ("bishop ov Rome", "Majesterium" instead of "Magisterium", "second comming", "regualtion" should be "regulation"), and there is an attempt to describe papal infallibility in an incorrect manner. Councils (such as Vatican I from which the papal infallibility dogma came) are considered infallible, but only two infallible decisions by a Pope have occurred to this date. It needs to be clarified that the infallible status of infallibility came from the First Vatican Council, not the Pope. Also, the Charismatic Movement is non-denominational. There seems to be a criticism woven into technical language on Scripture interpretation.

I see a lot of other sections with also-unusual typos ("Septuaginta" instead of "Septuagint").

This article is locked - here is my suggested replacement:

---BELOW THIS LINE---

The Roman Catholic Church, like the Orthodox Churches, has a strong sense of the authority given to the Bishops by Christ to teach, interpret, defend the Faith and therefore to exercise the responsibility to interpret Scripture to the faithful.

Since Vatican II, there has been an increased effort to bring knowledge of Scripture to the laity, resulting in an increase of Scripture reading and study programs throughout the Church. This has been abetted by the non-denominational Charismatic Movement, which has had the effect of promoting individual appropriation of the gifts and graces of the Holy Spirit, and with that, the devotional and intellectual use of Holy Scriptures.

However, the role of "Magisterium", that is the teaching authority of the Church, strongly sets limits to individual interpretation. The Roman Catholic Church understands that while the Magisterium is given to all the bishops, the definitive exercise is limited to one bishop - the bishop of Rome, the Pope. Further, it is believed that the Pope, when declaring dogma (teaching) ex-Cathedra (from the chair) speaks infallibly (on matters of faith and morals). This has happened twice since the dogma was defined in the First Vatican Council (Vatican I). In addition, Catholics believe that doctrine from Councils are also infallible.

Rather than hold to a literal interpretation of Scripture, Catholicism looks for "the meaning" and "the message" contained within, promoting the concept of "apostolic succession" - that the bishops are successors of the Apostles, with the successor of Peter, the Pope, as their leader. Interpretation of Scripture and Catholic Tradition by authorities result in such Catholic teachings as the prohibition of abortion."

---ABOVE THIS LINE---

-danq 23:25, 14 April 2010 (EDT)

Your revision looks pretty good to me!BertSchlossberg 23:40, 14 April 2010 (EDT)

The Bible and Islam

There's a section here called "Authority of Bible in religious communities". I think it is worthwhile to note somewhere on the Bible page that Islam considers many Biblical characters to be prophets: Abraham and Jesus, for example, but also people such as Adam, Noah, and Mary (mother of Jesus). This is useful information for people considering how to talk about Scripture with Muslims.

Bible Versions

Since the existence of a special version of the bible for the Jehovah's Witnesses is mentioned, would it be worth mentioning the "Inspired Version" by Joseph Smith? It's not really a "translation" so much as an edit of the King James Version, but is usually regarded by the various Latter Day Saints sects as the "best" version of the Bible (being the most in harmony with Smith's other teachings, for reasons one hopes are obvious). The Other Wiki has a reasonably neutral POV article on it. Ptorquemada 11:54, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

That's fine. Please add and explain as you think best.--Andy Schlafly 12:17, 6 April 2011 (EDT)

Deleted books

Shouldn't there be a mention of the numerous (ridiculous and liberal) pagan books that the Church removed early on? LogicalThinker 00:13, 17 June 2011 (EDT)

They have nothing to do with the Bible. Perhaps separate articles will do. Karajou 00:52, 17 June 2011 (EDT)

Who are the greatest villains of the Bible?

I think the top three have to be Cain (first murderer), Haman (tried to kill all the Jews), and Judas Iscariot (betrayed Christ). What do other people think? Maratrean 20:47, 25 November 2011 (EST)

Don't forget the serpent in the garden (who was Satan) and the Pharaoh who enslaved the Hebrews -danq 02:22, 3 December 2011 (EST)

Old Testament, specifically, i would have to say the character of God. This is based on His actions as they are presented not as a judgement of God's nature, if He does indeed exist as the concept of God can be expanded beyond the Bible's presentation. --DavidS 15:50, 20 June 2013 (EDT)

in "See Also"

I would like this article Singing the Hebrew Scriptures in the See Also section

in "See Also"

I would like this article Singing the Hebrew Scriptures in the See Also section

Most logical book?

Some atheists sent me this link:

http://sciencebasedlife.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/biblecontradictions-reasonproject.png

Of course it's nonsense, but could you please provide explanation for every so-called "contradictions" so that I could use it against them.

How is anyone supposed to respond to that massive list? It would take days to research all those claimed contradictions. I can't speak for all of them, but some of their claimed "contradictions" are particularly silly. For example, number 31, claiming that Prov 26:4 contradicts Prov 26:5. Do you really think two adjacent verses would contradict each other? Wouldn't someone have noticed it by now? Or could it be, that the passage is describing what we call today a catch-22 situation? i.e. arguing with fools is not a wise course of action, but sometimes one has little choice. A Catch-22 situation is contradictory in a sense, but then it is life itself that is being contradictory here, not the Book of Proverbs. ZackMartin 08:13, 25 June 2012 (EDT)
Even more logical than "Spock's Guide To Logic"? --DavidS 19:23, 16 March 2013 (EDT)
Yes, so you better accept that fact here. Karajou 23:02, 16 March 2013 (EDT)

Can be opened for posting?

Can this http://bertschlossberg.blogspot.com/2012/11/jesus-through-fabric-of-our-lives.html be posted under the title "Jesus through the Fabric of our Lives" in External Links ? Thank you!

Jesus Christ himself may have written the perfect Epistle to the Hebrews in the New Testament, as no other plausible author has been suggested.

  • Andrew Schlafly, I'd prefer it if you could keep your pet ideas out of the encyclopedic articles.
  • If you have to introduce this speculation, it shouldn't be mentioned in the leading section: please reread the opening paragraph - it just looks out of place there.

The page is prevented from editing, so I assume that this oddity will stay. --AugustO 13:02, 15 May 2013 (EDT)

August, substantive suggestions or criticisms are welcome. The statement in the entry is correct: other than Jesus Christ, no other plausible author has been suggested.--Andy Schlafly 13:34, 15 May 2013 (EDT)
Correct or not, you are (as far as I can see) the only advocate of this theory worldwide, and not only today, but for the last 2000 years. An opinion can hardly be more private... --AugustO 13:51, 15 May 2013 (EDT)
For more than a thousand years people were taught that Paul wrote this Epistle. That has since been disproved, leaving only one logical alternative. The power of logic is that it remains true in spite of liberal denial.--Andy Schlafly 14:23, 15 May 2013 (EDT)
Indeed, but from very early on there were doubts (see Eusebius of Caesarea). These were arguments from knowledge, from analysis of the style. Yours is truly an argument from ignorance: "we don't know, therefore Jesus". And that is simply not convincing...
--AugustO 15:04, 15 May 2013 (EDT)
It could be augmented to say, "While authorship is unknown, Andy Schlafly has put forth a theory that this particular book may have been authored by Jesus Christ himself."
Andy, I concur with your opinion re knowledge of the angels, although the references to them in Hebrews 1 and 2 are quotations from the Septuagint, and from the Gospel of John. However, only in the Gospel of John (17:3) does Our Lord directly refer to himself (once) in the third person by name, but in Hebrews all references to Christ are in the third person, and this is not Jesus' normal pattern of speech in the Gospels. This is also not his style in the letters he dictated to John in the Book of Revelation (1:10–3:22). Also, the arrest of Timothy the companion of Paul, and the greeting to the Hebrews from those saints (Christians) who came from Italy, in Hebrews 13:23-24, would have taken place long after Jesus ascended into heaven, long after the day of Pentecost, and after the conversion of Paul on the road to Damascus. With great respect and sincerity, I would like to know what then is your opinion and explanation of the means by which Jesus himself did write Hebrews? Was it by hand, physically, in which case he would have descended to earth to write it (which would be a secret second coming, and not according to Acts 1:11), or was it by inspiration from heaven through another writer to whom he dictated the letter, or was it written in heaven and then physically delivered by a heavenly messenger or delivered by himself and presented in a vision to a Christian messenger who then made several copies of the letter he was shown and then delivered them to the groups of Christian Hebrews who were being persecuted at the time it was written (Hebrews 12:3-17)? John said that Jesus told him to write to the Churches, but Hebrews has no such statement. These are the only possibilities supportive of your position that occur to me, but the text of Hebrews indicates none of them. (Is there another?)
With sincere respect, Pax vobis.--Dataclarifier 01:52, 29 December 2014 (EST)
As explained by Epistle_to_the_Hebrews_(Translated)#Chapter_13, the reference to Timothy is not part of the original. As far as Jesus referring to Himself in the third person, He obviously did that repeatedly in the encounter on the Road to Emmaus, as described near the end of the Gospel of Luke (Translated). The perfection in the Epistle to the Hebrews is above the ability of any man.--Andy Schlafly 16:53, 29 December 2014 (EST)
" The perfection in the Epistle to the Hebrews is above the ability of any man." That is a very bold claim! From my experience, no one here on Conservapedia has good enough a grasp of Greek to make such a statement. So, Andy, how do you differ between the words of God and the (inspired) words of men? --AugustO 17:19, 29 December 2014 (EST)
Surely you don't think that only a professional athlete may marvel at how good another professional athlete is. Yet your argument against marveling at the perfection of the Epistle to the Hebrews is similar in reasoning.--Andy Schlafly 18:22, 29 December 2014 (EST)
I know that Usain Bolt runs the 100m in 9.58s - that is remarkable. But is this perfection? I enjoyed Germany's win at the world-cup: I know that they are good because there was a competition to prove it. What's you measurement for the Epistle to the Hebrews? Being told by you that it is perfect is just not enough. --AugustO 18:44, 29 December 2014 (EST)
If you don't want to believe me, then do your own research - preferably, with an open mind.--Andy Schlafly 19:08, 29 December 2014 (EST)
How about you showing us your research? Before you made your proclamation, you certainly have gathered evidence for your position! At least, your comment above implies that you have done some research - so present it to us!--AugustO 19:27, 29 December 2014 (EST)

"A French commentator, C. Spicq, describes these first four verses of Hebrews as follows:

In a single long sentence, which constitutes without any doubt the most perfect Greek sentence construction in the New Testament, the author of Hebrews presents the Person and the work of Christ, incarnate and glorious Son of God, creator, sustainer, revealer, saviour and sovereign king of redeemed humanity, object of the faith and of the hope of the Christian community. Its excellence results from the four contrasts: between the former and the new revelation; between our ancestors and us; between the Son and the prophets and angels; between the former times and these last times.
[3]

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aschlafly (talk)

So what was your "research" exactly? For which phrases did you google? There are so many problems with your comment above:
  • Have you checked out C[eslas] Spicq's writings, or do you rely on amazon commentator trini "HWS"'s assessment? After all he/she is in the top 6 million commentators, and nearly half of his/her comments are seen as helpful!
  • What does Spicq think about the authorship of the letter? God or perhaps un philonien converti au christianisme?
  • Was the most perfect verse of the Iliad written by Zeus?
--AugustO 01:12, 30 December 2014 (EST)

Andy Schlafly, AugustO: —I should like to point out, August, that the setting forth of proposed hypotheses regarding scripture is a legitimate exercise in exegetical analysis and Christian devotion, and they are always subject to review by informed and competent experts in the field. Andy Schlafly's historical-critical proposal is not nearly as extreme as those of a multitude of others throughout history, such as Marcion, and Mani, and Priscillian, and others more recent such as C. H. Dodd. and Dominic Crossan (The Jesus Seminar). Andy's position is simply, "When the impossible is eliminated, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." (Arthur Conan Doyle.) Throughout the history of biblical exegesis, new insights which have eventually proven to be of inestimable value were novel when they were first proposed by their authors, who at the time had no precedent to draw upon to support their hypotheses and who were also accused of promoting their own "Private Opinions", as in this case. So it does not matter that "in 2000 years no one has proposed that Jesus wrote the Epistle to the Hebrews" (actually this proposal is not new, but you have to dig in the history of biblical exegetical commentary and textual analysis to be aware of this—I strongly recommend you do the research!). Here, then, is my conclusion (and a carefully-reasoned answer to the question, that I posed above, "by what means?"):
Based on Acts 1:3 we know that Jesus taught his apostles and disciples much more, just as he had promised them (John 16:12). What did he teach? Certainly he taught everything that we read in the Gospels, including the details of what he experienced and said in the Garden of Gethsemane while the apostles slept, and could not have known what he had prayed, and in the desert with the devil during the 40 days in the wilderness when they were not present as witnesses to that confrontation, and could not have known what was said.
Historically many followers of heretical teachers of esoteric doctrines have attempted to promote their teachings as the secret teachings of Jesus which he supposedly revealed during the 40 days after his resurrection, for example, "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and Didymos Judas Thomas recorded." (Gospel of Thomas). New Agers see the phrase "living Jesus" as indicating that these are the words he spoke after his resurrection while he was staying at the home of one or another of his closest followers.
At the other end of the debate we have only the tradition of scholars who have repeatedly assured us that "Jesus never wrote a thing", and that he "never handed them a Bible and said, 'Here, preach this'."
If Jesus did take the precaution of writing an authentic explication of his identity as the Son of God superior to the angels, of the superiority of his self-revelation to the law of Moses and of his sacrifice as superior to the ritual animal blood sacrifices of the temple, together with the necessity of remaining faithful to him as the Word of God, and calling on all Hebrew believers to be faithful to "Jesus the Son of God" and to those he had made leaders of the flock, then he would have personally written or dictated to the apostles his core doctrine during the 40 days he presented himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing to them, and speaking of the kingdom of God. The other documents of the New Testament were subsequently written under the guidance of the Holy Spirit after the Day of Pentecost, which happened 10 days after Jesus ascended and returned to the Father in heaven.
Now, as for the lack of an introductory address at the opening of this work, an argument from silence would suggest that, as with the possibility of a particular address to the readers and hearers in the opening of the Letter to the Ephesians, it too has been lost. It may reasonably be speculated that a copy of Jesus' letter to his Hebrew followers (who had already been persecuted even before his crucifixion and resurrection, John 8:31-32; 9:22) was later made and sent out and circulated with current news about Timothy appended to it, just as it appears, in the last 2 verses of the Letter. Textual historians have frequently found multiple instances of additional writings or text appended to the texts of various works of correspondence written on parchment and vellum throughout history:
Bryn Mawr, Harvard, A New History of French Literature (googlebooks).
If the premises on which Andy Schlafly's hypothesis are valid, then the "possibility that Jesus himself wrote the perfect letter to the Hebrews" is not at all untenable. It is not impossible, and it is not unreasonable; it just can't be demonstrated to have been proved beyond the shadow of a doubt to all students of the scriptures. I trust these comments will help reduce the intensity of this controversy. It is rare in biblical studies that any speculative hypothesis has ceased to be debated because a universal consensus has been reached, and I expect this one too will be no exception.
Pax vobis. Semper Fi. --Dataclarifier 12:38, 30 December 2014 (EST)

Thanks for your helpful insights. There is no reason for some to assert that Jesus never wrote anything. Why wouldn't he? He was certainly capable of writing. Also, throughout history God has shown a propensity for colorful, sometime humorous, tricks. Walking on water is one of many examples. Leaving an anonymous, flawless writing in perfect Greek is a fascinating puzzle. Perfection is beyond the capability of ordinary men.--Andy Schlafly 17:57, 30 December 2014 (EST)
Many ordinary Christians are also wholly unaware of THE EPISTLES OF JESUS CHRIST AND ABGARUS KING OF EDESSA. It reads beautifully and true to the Gospel, but it was never included in the canons of sacred scripture. Hang in there, buddy, your genuine devotion to Christ is evident and has informed your study of scripture. --Dataclarifier 20:06, 30 December 2014 (EST)
Andy, would you say that "The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa" are as perfect as the Epistle to the Hebrews? --AugustO 04:18, 2 January 2015 (EST)
Andy, it is evident that this man has nothing substantive to offer. Ignore his uninformed envy. (He makes a "p"-poor sniper.) As for me, an old warrior, I count it a real privilege and honor to have contributed something to your fine article. May God defend and reward you, lift up his countenance upon you + and give you peace. Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier 10:22, 2 January 2015 (EST)
LOL --AugustO 14:43, 2 January 2015 (EST)
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