Talk:Essay:Calming the Storm
Fascinating comparison. Should we add the CBP translation as well? --TeacherEd 11:13, 20 November 2010 (EST)
- Please do add the CBP translation!--Andy Schlafly 12:41, 20 November 2010 (EST)
- I think it is silly to have all columns sortable. May I change this? --JulesBongo 17:53, 20 November 2010 (EST)
- You're right. Please do fix that. Also, edits are welcome to fill out the tables and suggest improvements -- I'll be doing more of that later today as needed.--Andy Schlafly 18:02, 20 November 2010 (EST)
- 1 Probably one of the dumbests things in the CBP
- 2 Clarifying Mark 4:39
- 3 Modern physicians -- the insights of quantum mechanics -- suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.
- 4 The real meaning of the Greek "ἐπιτιμάω" is closer to "judge" than to affirmatively rebuke.
- 5 Andy, it's your essay, correct your mistakes, please
- 6 Andy, please delete this essay!
- 7 in the silent sense [it] can mean "he meant" or "he judged."
- 8 It only took....
- 9 Modern physicians suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.
Probably one of the dumbests things in the CBP
Andy, you wrote: " But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above,"
No, but εἶπεν appears in all Greek versions of Mark 4:39 - as well as in the version used by you! Are you not able to spot an irregular verb? Your complaint is like saying that the verb "to be" is not used in the sentence "the cat is black"!
Any pupil learns the principal forms of verbs like λέγω early on - this shows that you are lacking the most basic knowledge of Greek! --AugustO 05:30, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
Clarifying Mark 4:39
The verse contains the words:
|“||εἶπεν τῇ θαλάσσῃ Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο.||”|
- εἶπεν is a conjugate form of λέγω, in fact, it is 3rd person singular aorist active indicative. The obvious translation is "He said", or "He commanded". But perhaps he spoke to himself?
- No, he didn't he addressed the sea (θάλασσα) directly, indicated by τῇ θαλάσσῃ, the dative of this feminine noun. But perhaps it was a silent exchange?
- No, it wasn't: Σιώπα, πεφίμωσο is a command, imperative versions of the words Σιώπα ("silence") and φιμόω ("to muzzle"). This is direct speech: Σιώπα means "Silence!" and "πεφίμωσο" means "Be muzzled!"
Putting this all together we get:
|“||He commanded the sea: "Silence! Be quite!||”|
Therefore, the whole essay is nonsense, based on a rookie mistake.
--AugustO 06:08, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
Modern physicians -- the insights of quantum mechanics -- suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.
Physicians????? --AugustO 09:04, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
The real meaning of the Greek "ἐπιτιμάω" is closer to "judge" than to affirmatively rebuke.
I couldn't find any source confirming this "insight". ἐπιτιμάω has quite opposite meanings (honor and rebuke) - like "to sanction" in English. But "to judge" is none of them. In fact, ἐπιτιμάω is done by a judge after his judgement... --AugustO 09:24, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
Andy, it's your essay, correct your mistakes, please
As this is your essay, I won't touch it. But if you don't want it to be deleted, you should at least correct the most egregious errors. Ignoring critique is an all to common habit around here, and won't help to improve articles!
|Jesus's Calming the Storm is described in three Gospels: beginning at Matthew 8:23, Mark 4:39, and Luke 8:24.||—|
|The issue is how Jesus actually calmed the storm: by word, by deed, or by observation?||Whose issue is this? Was the question ever risen before?|
|Modern physicians -- the insights of quantum mechanics -- suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.||You certainly intend to say "physics". But how does it suggest this? That's nonsense.|
|Is "rebuked" the correct translation of the Greek term "ἐπιτιμάω", which appears in all three verses above and in connection with other miracles, such as Jesus's lifting of the fever in Luke 4:39?||Yes, it is, it's one of the main meanings of ἐπιτιμάω, and ἐπιτιμάω is consistently understood that way in the Gospels|
|The real meaning of the Greek "ἐπιτιμάω" is closer to "judge" than to affirmatively rebuke.||There is no evidence that ἐπιτιμάω means "to judge" - "to judge" judge is not even a meaning of ἐπιτιμάω, and far less the real meaning.|
|The term can even be used in a positive manner, as in "honor" or "raise the price of."||So what? It is akin to "to sanction"|
|The English term "rebuke" carries the primary connotation of a verbal communication, while in the Greek ἐπιτιμάω has the primary connotation of a non-verbal judgment.||That is wrong: the primary connotation of ἐπιτιμάω is "to warn", usually verbally!|
|In the Mark verse above, traditional translations insert the word "said" as though Jesus caused the calming by verbally ordering the sea to be still.||Traditional translations don't have to insert the word "said" in Mark's verse, as it is already there: εἶπεν means he said or he commanded|
|But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above,||Nonsense. The present of the first person does not appear, but the indicative of the third person of this verb! That is a rookie mistake!|
|, and where it does appear in Greek versions its real meaning is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep."||no, that is wrong - this is not its real but its original meaning: Homer may have used it this way. The typical use during the time the Gospels were written down, was "to say" or "to command".|
|It only has a connotation of speaking when used in a context of verbal communication (as in putting one word with another), which is not the case here.||As it is followed by direct speech, the context of verbal communication is given|
Anyone with a little Greek reading this essay will spot your basic mistakes, anyone with an interest in physics will be befuddled by your invocation of quantum mechanics.
--AugustO 14:08, 21 June 2015 (EDT)
Andy, please delete this essay!
I get the impression that it is nearly impossible for you to admit to a serious error - perhaps you think that doing so would debase the CBP even further. But I do not think that this could be worse than keeping up this monument of your ignorance. --AugustO 01:55, 22 June 2015 (EDT)
in the silent sense [it] can mean "he meant" or "he judged."
Andy, you are hilarious. εἶπεν is definitely not used in a "silent sense": see #Clarifying Mark 4:39 above. And still you claim:
But "λέγω" -- the Greek term used for said in some versions -- does not appear in the Greek above
This sentence shows that you would fail Greek 101.
It only took....
....eight months, dozens of posts, and hundreds of words, but at last, it is done. Thank you?
But I'm curious: how can you claim that «the real meaning of "λέγω" is to "lay", to "cause to lie down," or to "put to sleep"»? That was the meaning a couple of hundred years earlier! But not in Koine Greek: No other verb (besides "to be") is used more often in the New Testament, and as far as I can see, it is always used as "to say" (see Talk:Biblical_scientific_foreknowledge#Need_to_discuss_further_on_the_talk_page). --AugustO (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2016 (EDT)
Modern physicians suggest that the calming was achieved by observation, not by word or deed.
- Are these physicians part-time physicists?
- Andy, if there are physicists who suggest such a thing, could you name some?
- Or is this an abstract:"modern physics suggests"? Could you give some details?