Debate: Is Christian Nationalism biblical

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Yes

Yes. Where two or more are gathered in my name, there I am also. RobS^{Give Peace a Chance!} 12:00, September 11, 2023 (EDT)

That has nothing to do with advocating a theocratic government impose Gnosticized "Christianity" via civil decrees. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:07, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Oh. Do you mean the Christian Nationalist society association has an official Congress that votes on policy positions and direction? Do I have to be a member to join? RobS^{Give Peace a Chance!} 18:11, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Yes. Yes, because Jesus Christ is King of kings, it is right that the kings of the earth serve Him as their King, and do whatever they can to promote His Reign in their own countries and everywhere else, promoting the Great Commission, stopping the Persecution of Christians, and ending the Bloodshed of other Innocents, the Unborn. Jesus Christ is either Lord of all, or not at all. Governments must serve God.NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 12:44, September 11, 2023 (EDT)

Did Pagan Rome serve God in a direct sense of acknowledging His deity and authority? —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 12:50, September 11, 2023 (EDT)

That's not the issue. If the government is non-Christian, Christians should continue to be good citizens, pay taxes etc. That's what St. Paul is saying. The government puts evil people in jail and protects the innocent, and that in itself is good. But a Christian Government must do more: (1) it must proactively promote the Great Commission (2) End the Bloodshed of the Unborn (3) Stop the Persecution of Christians. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 17:29, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

It is not the responsibility of the secular civil power to promote the gospel. Politics is run by covetous, greedy, idolatrous whoremongers who have no inheritance in the kingdom of God, and Paul says not to be partakers with such people. (Eph. 5:5–7) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:07, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

It is ABSOLUTELY the responsibility of the secular civil power to promote the Gospel, even the King of England used to take the oath/vow to champion and defend the Christian Faith not that long ago. DeSantis is that Model Christian Prince under whom Jesus Christ will be King. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 19:03, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Let's connect the dots; the secular civil power is part of "the world," which the New Testament does not speak highly of. (Matthew 18:7; Mark 4:19, 8:36; John 1:10, 7:7, 15:19, 17:15; 1 John 2:15–17, 3:13, 5:19) Jesus said His Apostles were not of this world, just as He is not of this world. (John 17:16) So expecting the secular civil power to preach the gospel as if that's their responsibility is silly; how can a brood of vipers, being full of evil, speak good things? (Matthew 12:34) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Wednesday, 22:48, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

King David is your answer. King David is the prototype of the Model Christian King; even if he makes a few mistakes here and there like King David did, that has nothing to do with all the Good he did for the Lord's Name, and which every Christian King must surely do. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 05:33, September 13, 2023 (EDT)

Now you're misinterpreting the events of the Old Testament to promote faulty doctrine. The reason OT times operated under theocracy by contrast to the NT's advocacy of separation of church and state is simple: before 34 A.D., when probation closed for the Judeans (of course, the judgment was reserved for 70 A.D.) upon the stoning of Stephen, thereby fulfilling the 70-week prophecy (Daniel 9:24–27), salvation was primarily through the Jewish nation. And since the Jews in those days (or at least prior to long-term conquest and imperialism by pagan kingdoms as judgments for their sins) lived under the religious Levitical authority which was also the civil authority, it was a theocracy—until the New Covenant, salvation for Gentiles came almost entirely through converting to Judaism and thereby entering the Old Covenant into the theocratic Jewish nation.

However: Christianity is not limited to its early Jewish sect. Paul explains clearly that one need not be circumcised (read: enter into the covenant to be converted into Judaism/the literal Jewish nation) to be saved, so Christians are not mandated to Judaize, despite what many Pharisaic Jews believed. This means that, with Christianity as a religion for all of humanity and not limited to Jewry, Christians must live among all sorts of various societies which invariably are not, from the standpoint of the governing civil authority, in the faith. It is therefore unbiblical and impractical, from the standpoint of the New Covenant and its corollaries, to expect modern secular civil authorities to be mouthpieces for God. Christians are commanded to preach the gospel, but never are authorized by the New Testament to usurp civil, secular governments into that mission.

So it's actually kind of ironic: your argument relies on a strictly literal, outdated interpretation of the Old Testament, which falls into the same category of errors committed by the very "anti-Christian Pharisaic Jews" you condemn! —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Thursday, 01:33, September 14, 2023 (EDT)

No

• Mark 12:17 affirms that one's obligations to God and the civil government are distinct, which rests on the very premise of separation of church and state. Romans 13:1 establishes that Christians must respect the authority of civil governments, ruling out any biblical basis for paramiliitary insurrections such as the January 6 Capitol protests.

Christian Nationalism, as I've said before, parallels the ideology promulgated by Judas of Galilee, who "proclaimed the Jewish state as a republic recognizing God alone as king and ruler and His laws as supreme." The Pharisaic elder Gamaliel of the Sanhedrin reflected:

“	After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.	”
—Acts 5:37

The fervently nationalist, Zionist ideology of the Zealots is nearly identical to modern-day "Christian Nationalism": a group of disgruntled fanatics, mixing politics with religion, think that they are doing a favor for God by overthrowing tyrannical, oppressive governments and instituting in their place theocracies. And yet, those revolutions only result in increased moral abominations—January 6 saw rioters, in the name of "Christianity," committing unrestrained, savage, beastly assaults, just as the First Jewish–Roman War resulted in an outgrowth of moral depravity among the Jews. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, mothers were eating their own children after the Pagan Roman authority was removed!

Later in the 2nd century, ultra-Zionist Jews who followed after the false prophet and pseudo-messiah Simon bar Kokhba murdered countless Jewish Christians who dissented with "all kinds of persecutions," according to the church historian Eusebius. And we see the same attitudes today—any Christian who refuses to support the fanatic apostasy of extremist "right-wing" populism is quickly castigated by the Christian Nationalist mob as a "Biden-shilling Marxist socialist degeneracy-enabling Hillary Clinton–supporting ☭Communist☭." —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Monday, 13:21, September 11, 2023 (EDT)

"and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood" (Rev 1:5). "1:5 kings of the earth. Jesus Christ is anointed Prophet, Priest and King. As the “faithful witness,” or “martyr,” He shed His blood for our sins; as “the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18), He is our great “High Priest for ever after the order of Melchizedec” (Hebrews 6:20); and as the prince of earthly kings, He is “Lord of lords, and King of kings” (Revelation 17:14)." https://www.icr.org/books/defenders/8945

No, Pharisaic Zionism is not comparable - they rejected Jesus Christ as their King, see: "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us." (Luk 19:14).

Christian Nationalism rejects Pharisaic Zionism. It affirms: "We WILL have this Man (Jesus Christ) to reign over us". Btw, I don't support any anarchist violence. I support Pro-Life Conservative Christian Candidates like Ron DeSantis to be Democratically Elected and then implement a Bold Conservative Christian Nationalism Agenda, as I think he will. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 17:35, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

[EC] You're missing the point, NishantXavier. Firstly, I did not compare Christian Nationalism to Pharisaic Judaism; I compared it to the "fourth ideology" of the Zealots led by Judas of Galilee; the Pharisees, along with the Sadducees and Essenes, comprised the three "main" sects. Christian Nationalism is modeled on the core ideological tenets of the Zealots in viewing earthly theocracy and "pro-God" revolution as a biblical approach to the world's problems. Just as Judas the Galilean and Simon bar Kokhba saw their revolutionary theocratic movements as elevating God and persecuted dissident Jews, so too are the likes of Jim Caviezel and co. calling anyone who criticizes their "patriotic" campaigns as "leftist-shilling anti-Christian" and other pointless smears.

And you're mistaken in the exact sense of what it means for Christ being King of kings and Lord of lords. It does not mean that Christianity is to be the religion/ideology of an earthly kingdom over sinful men, a notion so plainly debunked in the New Testament. In addition, just because a person appears to profess Christ as Lord does not mean that they are honest, as countless deceivers are in the world. (2 John 7)

Church history is incredibly helpful to understand: following the prophetic ten days of rabid state-sanctioned violence against the Christians of the Smyrnean age manifested in the Diocletianic Persecution (Rev. 2:10), Constantine took over and instituted a great compromise between Christianity and paganism, creating the religion known today as Roman Catholicism. Once the compromise was complete, the newly empowered tyrannical system by the decree of Justinian in 538 A.D. set off a time, times, and half a time (Dan. 7:25) of papal persecution, lasting precisely 1,260 years (Rev. 12:6) to 1798 when Louis-Alexandre Berthier took Pope Pius VI captive, thereby inflicting the deadly wound. (Rev. 13:3) Sure, the syncretized papal system with its form of religion created by Constantine at face value professed Jesus as the Christ, yet is referred to by the Bible symbolically as Jezebel (Rev. 2:20) and Babylon (Rev. 17:5), with its leader known as the son of perdition (2 Thess. 2:3) who will get thrown into a (yes, "a" and not "the") lake of fire. (Rev. 19:20) These are facts. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:03, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Heretical Anti-Christian Trash that itself comes from Pharisaic Judaism. Pharisaic Judaism hated the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church taught Jesus Christ is Lord and Son of God, while Pharisaic Judaism taught: "Let Jesus be cursed". They even changed His Holy Name Yeshua into a curse/slur word Yeshu. Whoever confesses Jesus Christ is Lord and Son of God can only do this by the Power of the Holy Spirit, as Saint John and Saint Paul clearly teach (1 Cor 12:3;1 Jn 4:2 etc) while whoever says: "Let Jesus be cursed" is himself cursed by God Almighty (1 Cor 16:22). You have been confused by them. The Catholic Church is not Anti-Christ; Pharisaic Judaism is of the Anti-Christ, and the Final Anti-Christ will be a Pharisaic Jew falsely claiming to be the Messiah while saying: "Let Jesus be cursed". NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:16, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

The Pharisees as a sect were defunct shortly following 70 A.D., when the Second Temple was destroyed by Roman general Titus. And Catholicism's initiated class among the Jesuit Order promulgated a "Christianized" version of false pagan trinities that elevate female deities, replacing Semiramis with "Virgin Mary." Plenty of sources divulge into this information, and Prof. Walter J. Veith is an excellent lecturer on this subject.

Where is the biblical evidence that the Antichrist will be a Pharisaic Jew? —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:31, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive." NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:44, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

So... what is your larger implied point, NishantXavier? —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Wednesday, 22:39, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

You should read: "How the Catholic Church built Western Civilization: [1] by Professor Thomas Woods. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:18, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

"How Catholic priests developed the idea of free-market economics five hundred years before Adam Smith" Ahahahahahahaha- somehow I don't buy that. The famous Catholic godfather Thomas Aquinas's defense of stealing to compensate "need" was the inspirational origin of socialist ideologies, and the Catholic Church invented the left-wing distributism ideology that is openly against free-market capitalism, which the Jews pioneered. That is precisely why socialists then and now are antisemitic—they see Judaism and traditional Jewry as fueling the "capitalistic oppression" on the "common people."

Is it any wonder that Catholic social teachings inspired Comsymp politicians Vito Marcantonio and AOC? Ocasio-Cortez herself ties her far-left politics to Catholicism, and straight from the horse's mouth, the Jesuitist America Magazine openly boasts that "democratic socialism" is in line with Catholic social teachings, even promulgating the Communist (or at least para-Communist) "people over labor" slogan. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:40, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

You should read the book before prejudging it. You should also look to Conservative Catholics like Ron DeSantis and their Conservative Policies, rather than to Liberals, otherwise I can look to Liberal Protestants like Obama and say that represents Protestantism. I don't. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:45, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

I highly doubt DeSantis has any practical chance of obtaining the Republican nomination at this point, but that's a separate topic. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Wednesday, 22:50, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

I think he does, but the point is a Liberal Catholic doesn't represent Catholic Christianity, any more than a liberal Protestant or liberal SDAist represents Protstantism or SDAism. For Catholic Teaching, read the Catechism of the Catholic Church: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 05:35, September 13, 2023 (EDT)

If left-wing politics does not represent Roman Catholicism, then why does Pope Francis in Laudato Si' declare that private property is not an absolute right but rather serving a "social purpose"? According to the official Jesuitist mouthpiece:

“	In fact, although the Catholic Church officially teaches that private property is a natural right, this teaching also comes with the proviso that private property is always subordinate to the common good. So subordinate, says Pope Francis in a truly radical moment in “Laudato Si’,” that “The Christian tradition has never recognized the right to private property as absolute or inviolable, and has stressed the social purpose of all forms of private property.”	”
—[straight from the horse's mouth]

That ideology sounds like "real Communism" to me. Socialism is theft, whether perpetrated by individuals or at-large institutions like the government, and the Bible says, "Thou shalt not steal." (Ex. 20:15) —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Thursday, 01:42, September 14, 2023 (EDT)

Neither. Christian nationalism is neither biblical or unbiblical

Neither. Christian nationalism is neither biblical or unbiblical. Christianity was a persecuted minority religion at the time the Bible was written. So the New Testament writers didn't address this non-concern. Conservative (talk) 17:43, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Did you read anything I said? —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:03, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Disagree, Conservative. David was a Christian King, he certainly wasn't a practitioner of Pharisaic Judaism. How do we know? Because David taught Jesus Christ is Lord and God (Psa 110:1), which the Pharisees impiously denied. Hence, Jesus Christ quoted this passage from Christian King David to refute their errors. And Christian Kings like David show us Christian Kings - like Emperor Constantine did - must work to promote the Reign of Jesus Christ. Christian Kings have built Beautiful Cathedrals for Love of Jesus Christ and funded Beautiful Orphanages for Love of Children/Neighbor, while Anti-Christian Jews were collaborating with Anti-Christian Pagans in persecuting Christians. While it's true Christians made some mistakes here and there - and that happened even during the Colonial Era - they also did many very good things.NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:12, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

First off, the Pharisaic sect was divided—since "the Jews" in John are almost certainly the same group of Judeans referred to as "the scribes and Pharisees" in Matthew, we know that it was the same crowd being rebuked by Jesus. After the raising of Lazarus, many Pharisaic Judeans followed Jesus while others remained in denial (John 11:45–46), and this must have been a significant number because the chief priests' rage-filled plot to crucify Jesus was motivated by their ranks depleted as a result of Judeans abandoning their ideology to follow Christ. (John 12:10–11). Christianity is intricately connected to Pharisaism in key doctrinal tenets, evident in Paul's open affiliation with the Pharisees in front of the Sanhedrin on the doctrine of the resurrection. (Acts 23:6) There was a Pharisaic sect of the early Jewish-Christian church (Acts 11:2), yet the Bible never records a Sadducee sect in the church, likely since the Sadducees were Hellenized apostates who rejected key biblical doctrine that the Pharisees still adhered to portions of.

"Anti-Christian Jews" Yes, there has been a synagogue of Satan (Rev. 2:9, 3:9) since the earliest Christian church representing the stubbornly apostate faction of Jewry, though Christianity began as a sect of Judaism. Of course, Catholicism does not emphasize it since it was founded on the anti-Jewish, Gnosticized, pagan values of ancient Rome and Alexandria, the first two locations where the Christian church abandoned Sabbath observance and turned to Sunday worship.

Constantine paganized Christianity. In addressing the church age of Pergamos, Jesus writes as the one who wields the "sharp sword with two edges." Why? Because the sword of the Spirit is the word of God (Eph. 6:17), sharper than any two-edged sword (Heb. 4:12). The word of God divides people between righteous and unrighteous, repentant and unrepentant. The era of Constantine from 313–538 A.D. was a time period of compromise between Christianity and paganism, between good and evil, rather than following the biblical motto of separating oneself from the world. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Tuesday, 18:26, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

A Great Book to read on this is How Christianity changed the world: [2] by Prof. Alvin Schmidt. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:19, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

No, the Pharisees are a Heretical Anti-Christian Sect. They confused the world by denying the Truth that God was to be born of a Virgin (Isaiah 7:14; 9:6) and heretically insisted that the Messiah was only a Man, and not born of a Virgin. Those holy Church Fathers you are impiously slandering heroically fought these faithless heretics, and Almighty God brought Divine Judgment upon them in various ways, including with the Destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and by punishing them anew when they sought to rebuild it under the Pagan Sympathizer with Pharisaic Judaism, Julian the Apostate.

"Julian, who had made his soul a home of destroying demons, went his corybantic way, ever raging against true religion. He accordingly now armed the Jews too against the believers in Christ. He began by enquiring of some whom he got together why, though their law imposed on them the duty of sacrifices, they offered none. On their reply that their worship was limited to one particular spot, this enemy of God immediately gave directions for the re-erection of the destroyed temple, supposing in his vanity that he could falsify the prediction of the Lord, of which, in reality, he exhibited the truth.

The Jews heard his words with delight and made known his orders to their countrymen throughout the world. They came with haste from all directions, contributing alike money and enthusiasm for the work; and the emperor made all the provisions he could, less from the pride of munificence than from hostility to the truth. He despatched also as governor a fit man to carry out his impious orders. It is said that they made mattocks, shovels, and baskets of silver. When they had begun to dig and to carry out the earth a vast multitude of them went on with the work all day, but by night the earth which had been carried away shifted back from the ravine of its own accord. They destroyed moreover the remains of the former construction, with the intention of building everything up afresh; but when they had got together thousands of bushels of chalk and lime, of a sudden a violent gale blew, and storms, tempests and whirlwinds scattered everything far and wide. They still went on in their madness, nor were they brought to their senses by the divine longsuffering. Then first came a great earthquake, fit to strike terror into the hearts of men quite ignorant of God's dealings; and, when still they were not awed, fire running from the excavated foundations burnt up most of the diggers, and put the rest to flight. Moreover when a large number of men were sleeping at night in an adjacent building it suddenly fell down, roof and all, and crushed the whole of them.

On that night and also on the following night the sign of the cross of salvation was seen brightly shining in the sky, and the very garments of the Jews were filled with crosses, not bright but black. When God's enemies saw these things, in terror at the heaven-sent plagues they fled, and made their way home, confessing the Godhead of Him who had been crucified by their fathers. Julian heard of these events, for they were repeated by every one.But like Pharaoh he hardened his heart." https://www.fisheaters.com/juliantemple.html NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:50, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Btw, the Sadducees are even more of a Heretical Sect, that's True, but that doesn't excuse the Pharisees for teaching their Heresy that God was not to become Flesh and be born of a Virgin, which the Catholic Church most faithfully upheld and has upheld to this day.

The Sadducees taught one of the heresies that influenced the SDA sect, namely that the Saints are not alive in Heaven. Recall how Jesus refuted them in the Gospel: God is the God of the Living, therefore Saints like Abraham and Moses are Alive in Heaven. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:53, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

Again, you're inaccurately generalizing the Pharisaic sect as comprised entirely of "anti-Christian Jews." Many of them became Christians who were a part of the early Jewish-Christian church in Jerusalem, even if some were Judaizers. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Wednesday, 22:38, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

St. Paul did not preach Pharisaism or Pharisaic Judaism. He, "knowing only Christ Crucified" explicitly repudiated it, witness: "And I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why do I still suffer persecution? Then the offense of the Cross has ceased."(Gal 5:11). NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 19:10, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

That's only part of the story.

“	But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.	”
—Acts 23:6

—LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Wednesday, 22:52, September 12, 2023 (EDT)

The Pharisees taught at least 5 heresies. (1) Despite the Prophets clearly saying Christ will be born of a Virgin (Isa 7:14), Christ will NOT (according to them) be the Virgin-Born Son of God. St. Paul and the Catholic Church rejected this. (2) Despite the Prophets saying Christ will be God (Isa 7:14; 9:6; Psa 110:1), Christ will NOT (according to them) be God. St. Paul and the Catholic Church rejected this. (3) The Jewish Scriptures foreknew that Christ will be the Son of God Who saves from the fire (Daniel 3:25). St. Paul and the Catholic Church affirm this. Pharisaical Jews deny this to this day. (4) Christ will offer His Life for our sins like a Sacrificial Lamb (Isa 53). The Pharisees impiously deny this, instead idolatrously claiming Israel offers its life for our sins, as if Israel can atone for sins, or as if fallen sinners themselves in need of Redemption can somehow of themselves redeem others when in fact they cannot even redeem themselves (the common Pharisaical "interpretation" of Isaiah 53 is that it "refers" to Israel, which is an exegetical monstrosity) (5) The Scriptures clearly declare that God is the only Savior, as God does in Isa 43. But the Pharisees, making void the Word of God, once more claim that Israel is the savior, thus once more claiming Israel is God and can atone and save from sins, which in fact only Christ/God can.

All these and more Saint Paul rejected. That even a broken clock is right twice a day and that the Pharisees were right about (1) the Resurrection and (2) the Saints in Heaven being Alive, while the Sadducees were wrong even about these 2, in the long run means very little.

Back to the point, King David is absolutely a Model of a Christian King. A Christian King must promote the Reign of Christ the King. NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 05:43, September 13, 2023 (EDT)

"My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36) So biblically speaking, there's no such thing as a "Christian king." If one is a Christian, they acknowledge separation of church and state and will not focus on seizing control of worldly power. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Thursday, 01:26, September 14, 2023 (EDT)

"Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” (Rev 11:15). NishantXavier^{For Christ the King} 18:18, September 14, 2023 (EDT)

I think you're missing almost the entire context of what the seventh trumpet means, when it occurs, what transpires afterwards, and what it is not about. —LT ^{Rev. 22:13} Friday, 18:37, September 15, 2023 (EDT)