Talk:Protestant cultural legacies

The declarative sentence, "The first beast of Revelation has been identified as Papal Rome," using this source, Waggoner, E. J. (November 26, 1885), is simply racist anti-Catholic bigotry against Italian, Polish, and Irish immigrants, common and receptive to adherents of the Second Klan. RobS^{Give Peace a chance}

The Second Klan were apostate Protestants, which the section is about. Also, Papal Rome is not a race. Nice try with your usual Robscist deception. —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:03, February 20, 2023 (EST)

oh, prejudice against Italian, Polish, Irish, and German Catholics did not exist?

'Mediterranee man', Slavic, and Irish were not classified as a different race from 'Nordic man' or "Alpine man' by science and anthropologists in 1885? RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:08, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Christian opposition towards the centuries of Roman-instigated persecution is not equatable to scientific racism. —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:11, February 20, 2023 (EST)

(ec) Bottomline: You've used a racist tract here from 1885 to supposedly support your theory in condemnation of racism. Don't worry. We all make silly mistakes when we're amateurs. The question is, will you learn from it? or what will you learn from it? RobS^{Give Peace a chance}

Waggoner's tract is not racist; it's an expose of the transfer of power from Pagan Rome to Papal Rome. You either don't know what racism is, or don't care, concurrent with your nature as a Personal remark removed. —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:17, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Sure. I can imagine some guy who identifies as a protestant in 1885 alarmed by his country being overrun by German, Irish, Polish, and Italian Catholics, just as some do today looking at Mexicans. (We discussed elsewhere how Boston, seat of the 1776 Revolution, is now predominantly Irish Catholic). So he draws up a religious sounding tract to paint their faith as Satanic. That sort of stuff was easier to get away with then more so than today. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:26, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Reading your reply, it seems that you lack a sound understanding of U.S. history, let alone biblical history! —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:29, February 20, 2023 (EST)

It's called the historical method.

Wikipedia even has an article on your apostate Christian. [1] RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:35, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Nice projection there! And if you're actually deluded into thinking that late 1800s–era SDAs are comparable to the Second Klan, perhaps you should read up on the church's civil rights history. —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:39, February 20, 2023 (EST)

No. I'm just sayin Hitler, who was born the same year Waggoner died, grew up reading crap like that and accepting it as "common knowledge". RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 21:01, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Here's another major flaw in your research: Links to a contemporary whitewash of SDA's 19th century history provide nothing. The movement has never been regarded as "orthodox" or "fundamental", instead it has always adhered to a radical progressive, or esoteric (meaning open to an "enlightened" few) view of history.RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 21:08, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Let's examine some points from Historical_method#Core_principles_for_determining_reliability (Disclosure: I was indirectly involved in the creation of the WP article in 2005):

• The closer a source is to the event which it purports to describe, the more one can trust it to give an accurate historical description of what actually happened.
• If a number of independent sources contain the same message, the credibility of the message is strongly increased.
• The tendency of a source is its motivation for providing some kind of bias. Tendencies should be minimized or supplemented with opposite motivations.
• If it can be demonstrated that the witness or source has no direct interest in creating bias then the credibility of the message is increased.

Comment: All these points support my cursory examination of E.J. Waggoner. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:45, February 20, 2023 (EST)

How cute, grasping at straws to deny the truth evident in front of your very eyes. —LT ^{(Matthew 26:52)} Tuesday, 20:47, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Waggoner was an Adventist (he was on the committee that adopted the name "Seventh Day Adventist," still in use today - evidence of bias). He's not recognized as an authority on anything outside of the Adventist movement, which he helped found. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:50, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Don't let my criticism demoralize you. If you want to influence people through propaganda, you need to learn to be a little more subtle, and less obvious in your errors. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 20:54, February 20, 2023 (EST)

For the record

I question the wholesale reversion of these three sections [2] without discussion which an editor obviously put much time and effort into creating. Perhaps a discussion of spinning it out into an article by itself should have occurred. Whatever the title of that article, or if indeed a link from here to there should also have been discussed. Thanks. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 21:36, February 20, 2023 (EST)

Inordinate focus on Seventh Day Adventism

Seventh Day Adventism was founded in North America and makes up a small portion of North Americans. In 2008, the median age of Adventists in North America was 51 years while the median age in the population was 36.[3] These numbers indicate the North American Seventh Day Adventist church is not doing well in keeping or attracting young believers and/or may have a sub-replacement level of births.[4] The church seems to be surviving by the energy and resources of previous generations.[5]

So I really don't want this article to have an inordinate focus on Seventh Day Adventism. Conservative (talk) 21:38, February 20, 2023 (EST)

I agree wholeheartedly. My own personal view is Adventism should be confined to a series of articles and Category on Adventism, complete with a ==Criticism== section. We are not going to include subsections on "Adventist views", "Morman Views", "Jehovah Witness views", "Christian Scientist views", "Muslim views", "Atheist views", or 'Satanic views" in the whole Christian series. Neither are we going to allow the Christian series on doctrine to be tainted with marginal and fringe views. RobS^{Give Peace a chance} 21:46, February 20, 2023 (EST)

LT, there is a germ of an i9dea here. Why don't you create a separate series on SDA doctrine. Thanks.

Apostate protestant sects

The Apostle John, also known as John the Revelator, wrote of his visions in the Book of Revelation:

“	Then I saw another beast rising out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb and it spoke like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first beast in its presence, and makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose mortal wound was healed. It performs great signs, even making fire come down from heaven to earth in front of people, and by the signs that it is allowed to work in the presence of the beast it deceives those who dwell on earth, telling them to make an image for the beast that was wounded by the sword and yet lived. And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast might even speak and might cause those who would not worship the image of the beast to be slain. Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.	”
—Rev. 13:11–18

Some theories suggest the first beast of Revelation has been identified as Papal Rome, whose power was an outgrowth of the remnants of Pagan Rome. Towards the end of the 1,260-year span of papal supremacy, from the enactment of the Code of Justinian in 538 A.D. to the captivity of Pope Pius VI in 1898, the United States was in the early stages as a rising global superpower described as the second beast in Revelation. Ecumenical syncretism among right-wing Catholics and apostate Protestants has been the subject of scrutiny as a set-up for the beast system.

Reformist liberal Protestantism, the Progressive Movement, and unbiblical racism

Liberal wings of Protestantism in the United States, with a strong reformist attitude on social and cultural issues, compromised much of the ideological roots of the Progressive Movement. Notwithstanding a response to legitimate societal concerns such as poverty from a Social Gospel perspective, the Protestant-rooted Progressive Movement also employed nativist prejudices against immigrants, which were exacerbated by World War I ethnic and racial tensions and led to the second incarnation of Ku Klux Klan. The Second KKK adhered to a liberal interpretation of fundamentalist apostate Protestantism, often aligning with progressive clergy who favored causes such as birth control.

Seventh Day Adventist criticism of Protestant cultural legacies

Contemporary mainline Protestantism has been criticized by Seventh-day Adventists for its focus on salvation by grace and alleged "disregard" of the Ten Commandments and contorting of Scriptural meanings in addition to its increasing alliance with the papacy, which pursues an apostate Sunday law.}}