Difference between revisions of "Debate: Is the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?"

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(→‎No, the gospel promises us abounding grace)
(→‎Yes, grace is administered through the sacraments: Scriptural citations supporting the Catholic position, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church - a response to scriptural citation proof-texts listed at head of the "No" section of the debate)
Line 9: Line 9:
  
 
==Yes, grace is administered through the sacraments==
 
==Yes, grace is administered through the sacraments==
 +
The ''[[Catechism of the Catholic Church]]'' (CCC) on almost every page cites abundant '''biblical/scriptural''' support for '''traditional''' apostolic practice and doctrine regarding '''actual grace, sanctifying grace, and sacramental grace''' as interpreted by the established authority of the '''[[Magisterium|magisterium of the Catholic Church]]'''. Citations from the Bible appear in the ''Catechism'' in the following sequence.
 +
;Grace
 +
:'''John 1:12-18'''
 +
:'''John 17:3'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:14-17'''
 +
:'''2 Peter 1:3-4'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 2:7-9'''
 +
:'''John 4:14'''
 +
:'''John 7:38-39'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:17-19'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12'''
 +
:'''Romans 12:6-8'''
 +
:'''Matthew 7:20'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:28-30'''
 +
:'''Matthew 5:48'''
 +
:'''2 Timothy 4'''
 +
:'''James 1:11-12'''
 +
:'''Revelation 21:2'''
 +
;Baptism
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:17'''
 +
:'''Galatians 6:15'''
 +
:'''Romans 6:3-4'''
 +
:'''Colossians 2:12'''
 +
:'''Titus 3:5'''
 +
:'''John 3:5'''
 +
:'''John 1:9'''
 +
:'''1 Thessalonians 5:5'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 10:32'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:8'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:2'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 3:20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 3:13'''
 +
:'''Matthew 28:19-20'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:15-16'''
 +
:'''Matthew 3:15'''
 +
:'''Philippians 2:7'''
 +
:'''Matthew 3:16-17'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:38'''
 +
:'''Luke 12:50'''
 +
:'''John 19:34'''
 +
:'''1 John 5:6-8'''
 +
:'''John 3:5'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:38'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:41'''
 +
:'''Acts 8:12-13'''
 +
:'''Acts 10:48'''
 +
:'''Acts 16:15'''
 +
:'''Acts 16:31-33'''
 +
:'''Romans 6:3-4'''
 +
:'''Colossians 2:12'''
 +
:'''Galatians 3:27'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 6:11'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:13'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 1:23'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:26'''
 +
:'''Romans 6:17'''
 +
:'''John 3:5'''
 +
:'''Galatians 3:27'''
 +
:'''Matthew 5:14'''
 +
:'''Philippians 2:15'''
 +
:'''Revelation 19:9'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:14'''
 +
:'''Colossians 1:12-14'''
 +
:'''Acts 16:15'''
 +
:'''Acts 16:33'''
 +
:'''Acts 18:8'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 1:16'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:16'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 2:4'''
 +
:'''John 3:5'''
 +
:'''Matthew 28:19-20'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:16'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:14'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 2:4'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:38'''
 +
:'''John 3:5'''
 +
:'''2 Timothy 2:5'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:17'''
 +
:'''2 Peter 1:4'''
 +
:'''Galatians 4:5-7'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 6:15'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:27'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:17'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 6:19'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 4:25'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:13'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 2:5'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 2:9'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 6:19'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:15'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 13:17'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:21'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 16:15-16'''
 +
:'''1 Thessalonians 5:12-13'''
 +
:'''John 13:12-15'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:29'''
 +
;Confirmation
 +
:'''Isaiah 11:2'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 61:1'''
 +
:'''Luke 4:16-22''
 +
:'''Matthew 3:13-17'''
 +
:'''John 1:33-34'''
 +
:'''John 3:34'''
 +
:'''Ezekiel 36:25-27'''
 +
:'''Joel 3:1-2'''
 +
:'''Luke 12:12'''
 +
:'''John 3:5-8'''
 +
:'''John 7:37-39'''
 +
:'''John 16:7-15'''
 +
:'''Acts 1:8'''
 +
:'''John 20:22'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:1-4'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:11'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:17-18'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:38'''
 +
:'''Acts 10:38'''
 +
:'''Deuteronomy 11:14'''
 +
:'''Psalm 23:5'''
 +
:'''Psalm 104:15'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 1:6'''
 +
:'''Luke 10:34'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 2:15'''
 +
:'''Genesis 38:18'''
 +
:'''Genesis 41:42'''
 +
:'''Deuteronomy 32:34'''
 +
:'''1 Kings 21:8'''
 +
:'''Jeremiah 32:10'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 29:11'''
 +
:'''John 6:27'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 1:21-22'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 1:13'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 4:30'''
 +
:'''Revelation 7:2-3'''
 +
:'''Revelation 9:4'''
 +
:'''Ezekiel 9:4-6'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:15'''
 +
:'''Acts 1:14'''
 +
;Eucharist
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 15:28'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:19'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:24'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:26'''
 +
:'''Mark 14:22'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:20'''
 +
:'''Revelation 19:9'''
 +
:'''Matthew 14:19'''
 +
:'''Matthew 15:36'''
 +
:'''Mark 8:6'''
 +
:'''Mark 8:19'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:26'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:24'''
 +
:'''Luke 24:13-35'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:42'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:46'''
 +
:'''Acts 20:7'''
 +
:'''Acts 20:11'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 10:16-17'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:17-34'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 13:15'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 2:5'''
 +
:'''Psalm 116:13'''
 +
:'''Psalm 116:17'''
 +
:'''Malachi 1:11'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 10:16-17'''
 +
:'''Psalm 104:13-15'''
 +
:'''Deuteronomy 8:3'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 10:16'''
 +
:'''Matthew 14:13-21'''
 +
:'''Matthew 15:32-39'''
 +
:'''John 6:60'''
 +
:'''John 6:68'''
 +
:'''John 13:1-17'''
 +
:'''John 13:34-35'''
 +
:'''John 6'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:7-20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:17-29'''
 +
:'''Mark 14:12-25'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:23-26'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:26'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:42'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:46'''
 +
:'''Acts 20:7'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:26'''
 +
:'''Luke 24:13-35'''
 +
:'''1 Thessalonians 2:13'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 2:1-2'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 16:1'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 8:9'''
 +
:'''John 6:51'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:24-25'''
 +
:'''Exodus 13:3'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 7:25-27'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 5:7'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:19-20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:28'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 9:14'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 9:27'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:34'''
 +
:'''Matthew 18:20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 25:31-46'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:26 ''ff''''' (''26-29'')
 +
:'''Mark 14:22 ''ff''''' (''22-25'')
 +
:'''Luke 22:19 ''ff''''' (''19-20'')
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:24 ''ff''''' (''24-32'')
 +
:'''John 13:1'''
 +
:'''Galatians 2:20'''
 +
:'''John 6:53'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:27-29'''
 +
:'''John 6:56'''
 +
:'''John 6:57'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:13'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 10:16-17'''
 +
:'''Matthew 26:29'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:18'''
 +
:'''Mark 14:25'''
 +
:'''Revelation 1:4'''
 +
:'''Revelation 22:20'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 16:22'''
 +
:'''2 Peter 3:13'''
 +
;Penance and Reconciliation (Confession)
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 4:7'''
 +
:'''Colossians 3:3'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:1'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:1-12'''
 +
:'''Mark 1:15'''
 +
:'''Luke 15:18'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 5:24'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 6:11'''
 +
:'''Galatians 3:27'''
 +
:'''1 John 1:8'''
 +
:'''Luke 11:4'''
 +
:'''Matthew 6:12'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 1:4'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:27'''
 +
:'''Mark 1:15'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:38'''
 +
:'''Psalm 51:17'''
 +
:'''John 6:44'''
 +
:'''John 12:32'''
 +
:'''1 John 4:10'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:61'''
 +
:'''John 21:15-17'''
 +
:'''Revelation 2:5'''
 +
:'''Revelation 2:16'''
 +
:'''Joel 2:12-13'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 1:16-17'''
 +
:'''Matthew 6:1-6'''
 +
:'''Matthew 6:16-18'''
 +
:'''Ezekiel 36:26-27'''
 +
:'''Lamentations 5:21'''
 +
:'''John 19:37'''
 +
:'''Zechariah 12:10'''
 +
:'''John 16:18-19'''
 +
:'''John 15:26'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:36-38'''
 +
:'''Tobit 12:8'''
 +
:'''Matthew 6:1-18'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 4:8'''
 +
:'''James 5:20'''
 +
:'''Amos 5:24'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 1:17'''
 +
:'''Luke 9:23'''
 +
:'''Luke 15:11-24'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:7'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:5'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:10'''
 +
:'''Luke 7:48'''
 +
:'''John 20:21-23'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:18'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:20'''
 +
:'''Luke 15'''
 +
:'''Luke 19:9'''
 +
:'''Matthew 16:19'''
 +
:'''Matthew 18:18'''
 +
:'''Matthew 28:16-20'''
 +
:'''Matthew 5–7'''
 +
:'''Romans 12–15'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12–13'''
 +
:'''Galatians 5'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 4–6'''
 +
:'''Exodus 20:17'''
 +
:'''Matthew 5:28'''
 +
:'''Luke 6:36'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:17'''
 +
:'''Romans 3:25'''
 +
:'''1 John 2:1-2'''
 +
:'''Philippians 4:13'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 1:31'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 10:17'''
 +
:'''Galatians 6:14'''
 +
:'''Luke 3:8'''
 +
:'''John 20:23'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 5:18'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 4:22'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 4:24'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:5'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:17'''
 +
;Anointing of the Sick
 +
:'''James 5:14-16'''
 +
:'''Romans 8:17'''
 +
:'''Colossians 1:24'''
 +
:'''2 Timothy 2:11-12'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 4:13'''
 +
:'''Psalm 6:3'''
 +
:'''Psalm 6:38'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 38'''
 +
:'''Psalm 32:5'''
 +
:'''Psalm 38:5'''
 +
:'''Psalm 39:9'''
 +
:'''Psalm 39:12'''
 +
:'''Psalm 107:20'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:5-12'''
 +
:'''Exodus 15:26'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 53:11'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 33:24'''
 +
:'''Luke 7:16'''
 +
:'''Matthew 4:24'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:5-12'''
 +
:'''Mark 2:17'''
 +
:'''Matthew 25:36'''
 +
:'''Mark 5:34'''
 +
:'''Mark 5:36'''
 +
:'''Mark 9:23'''
 +
:'''Mark 7:32-36'''
 +
:'''Mark 8:22-25'''
 +
:'''John 9:6-7'''
 +
:'''Luke 6:19'''
 +
:'''Mark 1:41'''
 +
:'''Mark 3:10'''
 +
:'''Mark 6:56'''
 +
:'''Matthew 8:17'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 53:4'''
 +
:'''Matthew 8:17'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 53:4'''
 +
:'''John 1:29'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 53:4-6'''
 +
:'''Matthew 10:38'''
 +
:'''Mark 6:12-13'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:17-18'''
 +
:'''Acts 9:34'''
 +
:'''Acts 14:3'''
 +
:'''Matthew 1:21'''
 +
:'''Acts 4:12'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:9'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:28'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 12:30'''
 +
:'''2 Corinthians 12:9'''
 +
:'''Colossians 1:24'''
 +
:'''Matthew 10:8'''
 +
:'''John 6:54'''
 +
:'''John 6:58'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:30'''
 +
:'''James 5:14-15'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:13'''
 +
:'''James 5:14-15'''
 +
:'''James 5:14'''
 +
:'''James 5:15'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 2:15'''
 +
:'''James 5:15'''
 +
:'''John 6:54'''
 +
:'''John 13:1'''
 +
;Holy Orders
 +
:'''Hebrews 5:6'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 7:11'''
 +
:'''Psalm 110:4'''
 +
:'''Exodus 19:6'''
 +
:'''Isaiah 61:6'''
 +
:'''Numbers 5:1'''
 +
:'''Exodus 29:1-30'''
 +
:'''Leviticus 8'''
 +
:'''Malachi 2:7-9'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 5:3'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 7:27'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 10:1-4'''
 +
:'''Numbers 11:24-25'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 2:5'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 5:10'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 6:20'''
 +
:'''Genesis 14:18'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 7:26'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 10:14'''
 +
:'''Revelation 1:6'''
 +
:'''Revelation 5:9-10'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 2:5'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 2:9'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:43-45'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 5:3'''
 +
:'''John 21:15-17'''
 +
:'''Acts 1:8'''
 +
:'''Acts 2:4'''
 +
:'''John 20:22-23'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 4:14'''
 +
:'''2 Timothy 1:6-7'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 5:1-10'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 7:24'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 9:11-28'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 11:26'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:45'''
 +
:'''Luke 22:27'''
 +
:'''Mark 3:14-19'''
 +
:'''Luke 6:12-16'''
 +
:'''1 Timothy 3:1-13'''
 +
:'''2 Timothy 1:6'''
 +
:'''Titus 1:5-9'''
 +
:'''Hebrews 5:4'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:12'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:32'''
 +
;Matrimony
 +
:'''Revelation 19:7'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:26-27'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:39'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:31-32'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:27'''
 +
:'''1 John 4:8'''
 +
:'''1 John 4:16'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:28'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:31'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:18'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:18-25'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:24'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:6'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:25-26'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:31-32'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:24'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:26-27'''
 +
:'''Luke 14:26'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:28-31'''
 +
:'''Revelation 14:4'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:32'''
 +
:'''Matthew 25:6'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:12'''
 +
:'''Mark 12:25'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:31'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:3-12'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 10:17'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:32'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:24'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:8'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:31'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:14'''
 +
:'''1 Corinthians 7:16'''
 +
:'''Mark 10:9'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 5:21'''
 +
:'''Galatians 6:2'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:6'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:24'''
 +
:'''Matthew 10:11-12'''
 +
:'''Genesis 2:18'''
 +
:'''Matthew 19:4'''
 +
:'''Genesis 1:28'''
 +
:'''Acts 18:8'''
 +
:'''Acts 16:31'''
 +
:'''Acts 11:14'''
 +
:'''Genesis 12:2'''
 +
:'''Luke 6:28'''
 +
:'''Romans 12:14'''
 +
:'''1 Peter 3:9'''
 +
:'''Ephesians 1:3'''
 +
:'''Mark 1:25-26'''
 +
:'''Mark 3:15'''
 +
:'''Mark 6:7'''
 +
:'''Mark 6:13'''
 +
:'''Mark 16:17'''
  
 
===User: Dataclarifier===
 
===User: Dataclarifier===

Revision as of 12:02, August 23, 2020

This is a non-denominational exchange of ideas intended to bring about a greater understanding of the Bible.
All views are welcome.

Texts:

  • 2 Corinthians 12:9 - And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
  • Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God
  • Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

No personal attacks, such as impugning another editor as a Nazi or anti-Christ are allowed, and the offending posting can be removed in its entirety by any user.

Yes, grace is administered through the sacraments

The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) on almost every page cites abundant biblical/scriptural support for traditional apostolic practice and doctrine regarding actual grace, sanctifying grace, and sacramental grace as interpreted by the established authority of the magisterium of the Catholic Church. Citations from the Bible appear in the Catechism in the following sequence.

Grace
John 1:12-18
John 17:3
Romans 8:14-17
2 Peter 1:3-4
1 Corinthians 2:7-9
John 4:14
John 7:38-39
2 Corinthians 5:17-19
1 Corinthians 12
Romans 12:6-8
Matthew 7:20
Romans 8:28-30
Matthew 5:48
2 Timothy 4
James 1:11-12
Revelation 21:2
Baptism
2 Corinthians 5:17
Galatians 6:15
Romans 6:3-4
Colossians 2:12
Titus 3:5
John 3:5
John 1:9
1 Thessalonians 5:5
Hebrews 10:32
Ephesians 5:8
Genesis 1:2
1 Peter 3:20
Matthew 3:13
Matthew 28:19-20
Mark 16:15-16
Matthew 3:15
Philippians 2:7
Matthew 3:16-17
Mark 10:38
Luke 12:50
John 19:34
1 John 5:6-8
John 3:5
Acts 2:38
Acts 2:41
Acts 8:12-13
Acts 10:48
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:31-33
Romans 6:3-4
Colossians 2:12
Galatians 3:27
1 Corinthians 6:11
1 Corinthians 12:13
1 Peter 1:23
Ephesians 5:26
Romans 6:17
John 3:5
Galatians 3:27
Matthew 5:14
Philippians 2:15
Revelation 19:9
Mark 10:14
Colossians 1:12-14
Acts 16:15
Acts 16:33
Acts 18:8
1 Corinthians 1:16
Mark 16:16
1 Timothy 2:4
John 3:5
Matthew 28:19-20
Mark 16:16
Mark 10:14
1 Timothy 2:4
Acts 2:38
John 3:5
2 Timothy 2:5
2 Corinthians 5:17
2 Peter 1:4
Galatians 4:5-7
1 Corinthians 6:15
1 Corinthians 12:27
Romans 8:17
1 Corinthians 6:19
Ephesians 4:25
1 Corinthians 12:13
1 Peter 2:5
1 Peter 2:9
1 Corinthians 6:19
2 Corinthians 5:15
Hebrews 13:17
Ephesians 5:21
1 Corinthians 16:15-16
1 Thessalonians 5:12-13
John 13:12-15
Romans 8:29
Confirmation
Isaiah 11:2
Isaiah 61:1
'Luke 4:16-22
Matthew 3:13-17
John 1:33-34
John 3:34
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Joel 3:1-2
Luke 12:12
John 3:5-8
John 7:37-39
John 16:7-15
Acts 1:8
John 20:22
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 2:11
Acts 2:17-18
Acts 2:38
Acts 10:38
Deuteronomy 11:14
Psalm 23:5
Psalm 104:15
Isaiah 1:6
Luke 10:34
2 Corinthians 2:15
Genesis 38:18
Genesis 41:42
Deuteronomy 32:34
1 Kings 21:8
Jeremiah 32:10
Isaiah 29:11
John 6:27
2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Ephesians 1:13
Ephesians 4:30
Revelation 7:2-3
Revelation 9:4
Ezekiel 9:4-6
Romans 8:15
Acts 1:14
Eucharist
1 Corinthians 15:28
Luke 22:19
1 Corinthians 11:24
Matthew 26:26
Mark 14:22
1 Corinthians 11:20
Revelation 19:9
Matthew 14:19
Matthew 15:36
Mark 8:6
Mark 8:19
Matthew 26:26
1 Corinthians 11:24
Luke 24:13-35
Acts 2:42
Acts 2:46
Acts 20:7
Acts 20:11
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
1 Corinthians 11:17-34
Hebrews 13:15
1 Peter 2:5
Psalm 116:13
Psalm 116:17
Malachi 1:11
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Psalm 104:13-15
Deuteronomy 8:3
1 Corinthians 10:16
Matthew 14:13-21
Matthew 15:32-39
John 6:60
John 6:68
John 13:1-17
John 13:34-35
John 6
Luke 22:7-20
Matthew 26:17-29
Mark 14:12-25
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
1 Corinthians 11:26
Acts 2:42
Acts 2:46
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 11:26
Luke 24:13-35
1 Thessalonians 2:13
1 Timothy 2:1-2
1 Corinthians 16:1
2 Corinthians 8:9
John 6:51
1 Corinthians 11:24-25
Exodus 13:3
Hebrews 7:25-27
1 Corinthians 5:7
Luke 22:19-20
Matthew 26:28
Hebrews 9:14
Hebrews 9:27
Romans 8:34
Matthew 18:20
Matthew 25:31-46
Matthew 26:26 ff (26-29)
Mark 14:22 ff (22-25)
Luke 22:19 ff (19-20)
1 Corinthians 11:24 ff (24-32)
John 13:1
Galatians 2:20
John 6:53
1 Corinthians 11:27-29
John 6:56
John 6:57
1 Corinthians 12:13
1 Corinthians 10:16-17
Matthew 26:29
Luke 22:18
Mark 14:25
Revelation 1:4
Revelation 22:20
1 Corinthians 16:22
2 Peter 3:13
Penance and Reconciliation (Confession)
2 Corinthians 4:7
Colossians 3:3
2 Corinthians 5:1
Mark 2:1-12
Mark 1:15
Luke 15:18
2 Corinthians 5:20
Matthew 5:24
1 Corinthians 6:11
Galatians 3:27
1 John 1:8
Luke 11:4
Matthew 6:12
Ephesians 1:4
Ephesians 5:27
Mark 1:15
Acts 2:38
Psalm 51:17
John 6:44
John 12:32
1 John 4:10
Luke 22:61
John 21:15-17
Revelation 2:5
Revelation 2:16
Joel 2:12-13
Isaiah 1:16-17
Matthew 6:1-6
Matthew 6:16-18
Ezekiel 36:26-27
Lamentations 5:21
John 19:37
Zechariah 12:10
John 16:18-19
John 15:26
Acts 2:36-38
Tobit 12:8
Matthew 6:1-18
1 Peter 4:8
James 5:20
Amos 5:24
Isaiah 1:17
Luke 9:23
Luke 15:11-24
Mark 2:7
Mark 2:5
Mark 2:10
Luke 7:48
John 20:21-23
2 Corinthians 5:18
2 Corinthians 5:20
Luke 15
Luke 19:9
Matthew 16:19
Matthew 18:18
Matthew 28:16-20
Matthew 5–7
Romans 12–15
1 Corinthians 12–13
Galatians 5
Ephesians 4–6
Exodus 20:17
Matthew 5:28
Luke 6:36
Romans 8:17
Romans 3:25
1 John 2:1-2
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 1:31
2 Corinthians 10:17
Galatians 6:14
Luke 3:8
John 20:23
2 Corinthians 5:18
Ephesians 4:22
Ephesians 4:24
Mark 2:5
Mark 2:17
Anointing of the Sick
James 5:14-16
Romans 8:17
Colossians 1:24
2 Timothy 2:11-12
1 Peter 4:13
Psalm 6:3
Psalm 6:38
Isaiah 38
Psalm 32:5
Psalm 38:5
Psalm 39:9
Psalm 39:12
Psalm 107:20
Mark 2:5-12
Exodus 15:26
Isaiah 53:11
Isaiah 33:24
Luke 7:16
Matthew 4:24
Mark 2:5-12
Mark 2:17
Matthew 25:36
Mark 5:34
Mark 5:36
Mark 9:23
Mark 7:32-36
Mark 8:22-25
John 9:6-7
Luke 6:19
Mark 1:41
Mark 3:10
Mark 6:56
Matthew 8:17
Isaiah 53:4
Matthew 8:17
Isaiah 53:4
John 1:29
Isaiah 53:4-6
Matthew 10:38
Mark 6:12-13
Mark 16:17-18
Acts 9:34
Acts 14:3
Matthew 1:21
Acts 4:12
1 Corinthians 12:9
1 Corinthians 12:28
1 Corinthians 12:30
2 Corinthians 12:9
Colossians 1:24
Matthew 10:8
John 6:54
John 6:58
1 Corinthians 11:30
James 5:14-15
Mark 16:13
James 5:14-15
James 5:14
James 5:15
Hebrews 2:15
James 5:15
John 6:54
John 13:1
Holy Orders
Hebrews 5:6
Hebrews 7:11
Psalm 110:4
Exodus 19:6
Isaiah 61:6
Numbers 5:1
Exodus 29:1-30
Leviticus 8
Malachi 2:7-9
Hebrews 5:3
Hebrews 7:27
Hebrews 10:1-4
Numbers 11:24-25
1 Timothy 2:5
Hebrews 5:10
Hebrews 6:20
Genesis 14:18
Hebrews 7:26
Hebrews 10:14
Revelation 1:6
Revelation 5:9-10
1 Peter 2:5
1 Peter 2:9
Mark 10:43-45
1 Peter 5:3
John 21:15-17
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:4
John 20:22-23
1 Timothy 4:14
2 Timothy 1:6-7
Hebrews 5:1-10
Hebrews 7:24
Hebrews 9:11-28
1 Corinthians 11:26
Mark 10:45
Luke 22:27
Mark 3:14-19
Luke 6:12-16
1 Timothy 3:1-13
2 Timothy 1:6
Titus 1:5-9
Hebrews 5:4
Matthew 19:12
1 Corinthians 7:32
Matrimony
Revelation 19:7
Genesis 1:26-27
1 Corinthians 7:39
Ephesians 5:31-32
Genesis 1:27
1 John 4:8
1 John 4:16
Genesis 1:28
Genesis 1:31
Genesis 2:18
Genesis 2:18-25
Genesis 2:24
Matthew 19:6
Ephesians 5:25-26
Ephesians 5:31-32
Genesis 2:24
Ephesians 5:26-27
Luke 14:26
Mark 10:28-31
Revelation 14:4
1 Corinthians 7:32
Matthew 25:6
Matthew 19:12
Mark 12:25
1 Corinthians 7:31
Matthew 19:3-12
1 Corinthians 10:17
Ephesians 5:32
Genesis 2:24
Mark 10:8
Ephesians 5:31
1 Corinthians 7:14
1 Corinthians 7:16
Mark 10:9
Ephesians 5:21
Galatians 6:2
Matthew 19:6
Genesis 2:24
Matthew 10:11-12
Genesis 2:18
Matthew 19:4
Genesis 1:28
Acts 18:8
Acts 16:31
Acts 11:14
Genesis 12:2
Luke 6:28
Romans 12:14
1 Peter 3:9
Ephesians 1:3
Mark 1:25-26
Mark 3:15
Mark 6:7
Mark 6:13
Mark 16:17

User: Dataclarifier

The sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church

The grace of salvation through the precious blood of Christ alone is the sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church.
In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
The "communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits is the imparting of grace from Christ alone. This is explained in detail from the sacred scriptures in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Part Two: The Celebration of the Christian Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2.htm
Section One: The Sacramental Economy — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm
Chapter One: The Paschal Mystery in the Age of the Church — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a1.htm
Article 1: The Liturgy – Work of the Holy Trinity — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a1.htm
Article 2: The Paschal Mystery in the Church's Sacraments — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c1a2.htm
Chapter Two: The Sacramental Celebration of the Paschal Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a1.htm
Article 1: Celebrating the Church's Liturgy — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a1.htm
Article 2: Liturgical Diversity and the Unity of the Mystery — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1c2a2.htm
Section Two: The Seven Sacraments of the Church — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2.htm
Chapter One: The Sacraments of Christian Initiation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1.htm
Article 1: The Sacrament of Baptism — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a1.htm
Article 2: The Sacrament of Confirmation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a2.htm
Article 3: The Sacrament of the Eucharist — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm
Chapter Two: The Sacraments of Healing — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2.htm
Article 4: The Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a4.htm
Article 5: The Anointing of the Sick — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c2a5.htm
Chapter Three: The Sacraments at the Service of Communion — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3.htm
Article 6: The Sacrament of Holy Orders — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a6.htm
Article 7: The Sacrament of Matrimony — http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c3a7.htm

The Bible is cited all throughout as the source of Catholic Doctrine. Citations and references to scripture passages appear on almost every page and are noted in the footnotes (listed here for readers' benefit, to check for themselves):

Ephesians 1:9. Ephesians 3:9; see 3:4. See John 17:4. See Luke 1:23; Acts 13:2; Romans 15:16,27; 2 Corinthians 9:12; Philippians 2:14-17,25,30. See Hebrews 8:2,6. Ephesians 2:4; 3:16-17. Ephesians 6:18. 1 Corinthians 11:26. Ephesians 1:3-6. Luke 10:21. 2 Corinthians 9:15. Ephesians 1:6. Romans 6:10; Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; see John 13:1; 17:1. See John 20:21-23. Matthew 18:20. Luke 24:13-49. 2 Corinthians 3:14-16. 1 Peter 3:21. John 6:32; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-6. John 14:26. Romans 12:1. See Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22. See John 15:1-17; Galatians 5:22. See 1 John 1:3-7. 2 Corinthians 13:13. John 16:13; see Matthew 13:52; 1 Corinthians 4:1. Luke 24:47. Matthew 28:19. 2 Peter 1:4. 1 Corinthians 11:26; 15:28. 1 Corinthians 16:33. Luke 22:15. Titus 2:13. Revelation 22:17,20. Revelation 4:2,8; Isaiah 6:1; see Ezekiel 1:26-28. Revelation 5:6; see John 1:29; Hebrews 4:14-15; 10:19-22. Revelation 22:1; see 21:6; John 4:10-14. See Revelation 4–5; 7:1-8; 14:1; Isaiah 6:2-3. Revelation 6:9-11; Revelation 21:9; see 12. Revelation 7:9. See 1 Peter 2:4-5. See 1 Peter 2:9; 2:4-5. Romans 12:4. Wisdom 13:1; Romans 1:19 f; Acts 14:17. Luke 8:10. See John 9:6; Mark 7:33 ff; 8:22 ff. See Luke 9:31; 22:7-20. Ephesians 5:19; see Colossians 3:16. Hebrews 12:1. See Matthew 6:11; Hebrews 3:7–4:11; Psalm 95:7. Luke 4:19. 1 Thessalonians 5:17; Ephesians 6:18. John 4:24. 1 Peter 2:4-5. 2 Corinthians 6:16. See Hebrews 13:10. Revelation 21:4. 2 Timothey 1:14 (Vulg.). Romans 16:26. 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; see Romans 6:3-4; Colossians 2:12. Titus 3:5; John 3:5. John 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:5; Hebrews 10:32; Ephesians 5:8. See Genesis 1:2. 1 Peter 3:20. See Matthew 3:13. Matthew 28:19-20; see Mark 16:15-16. Matthew 3:15. See Philippians 2:7. Matthew 3:16-17. Mark 10:38; see Luke 12:50. See John 19:34; 1 John 5:6-8. See John 3:5. Acts 2:38. See Acts 2:41; 8:12-13; 10:48; 16:15. Acts 16:31-33. Romans 6:3-4; see Colossians 2:12. Galatians 3:27. See 1 Corinthians 6:11; 12:13. 1 Peter 1:23; see Ephesians 5:26. See Romans 6:17. John 3:5. See 1 Timothy 2:4. See John 3:5. See Matthew 28:19-20. See Mark 16:16. Mark 10:14; see 1 Timothy 2:4. See Acts 2:38; John 3:5. 2 Timothy 2:5. 2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Peter 1:4; see Galatians 4:5-7. See 1 Corinthians 6:15; 12:27; Romans 8:17. See 1 Corinthians 6:19. Ephesians 4:25. 1 Corinthians 12:13. 1 Peter 2:5. 1 Peter 2:9. See 1 Corinthians 6:19; 2 Corinthians 5:15. Hebrews 13:17. See Ephesians 5:21; 1 Corinthians 16:15-16; 1 Thessalonians 5:12-13; John 13:12-15. See Romans 8:29. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Luke 4:16-22. See Matthew 3:13-17; John 1:33-34. John 3:34. See Ezekiel 36:25-27; Joel 3:1-2. See Luke 12:12; John 3:5-8; 7:37-39; 16:7-15; Acts 1:8. See John 20:22; Acts 2:1-4. Acts 2:11; see 2:17-18. See Acts 2:38. Acts 10:38. See Deuteronomy 11:14: Psalms 23:5; 104:15. See Isaiah 1:6; Luke 10:34. 2 Corinthians 5:15. See Genesis 38:16; 41:42; Deuteronomy 32:34. See 1 Kings 21:8; Jeremiah 32:10; Isaiah 29:11. See John 6:27. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22; see Ephesians 1:13; 4:30. See Revelation 7:2-3; 9:4; Ezekiel 9:4-6. Romans 8:15. Acts 1:14. 1 Corinthians 15:28. See Luke 22:19; 1 Corinthians 11:24. See Matthew 26:26; Mark 14:22. See 1 Corinthians 11:20; Revelation 19:9. See Matthew 14:19; 15:36; Mark 8:6,19.See Matthew 26:26; 1 Corinthians 11:24. See Luke 24:13-35. See Acts 2:42,46; 20:7,11. See 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See 1  Corinthians 11:17-34. Hebrews 13:15; see 1 Peter 2:5; Psalm 116:13,17; Malachi 1:11. See 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See Psalm 104:13-15. Genesis 14:18. See Deuteronomy 8:3. 1 Corinthians 10:16. See Matthew 14:13-21; 15:32-39. See John 2:11; Mark 14:25. John 6:60. John 6:67. John 6:68. See John 13:1-17; 34-35. See John 6. Luke:22:7-20; see Matthew 26:17-25; 1 Cornithians 11:23-26. See 1 Cornithians 11:26. Acts 2:42,46. Acts 20:7. 1 Corinthians 11:26. See Luke 24:13-35. See 1 Thessalonians 2:13. 1 Timothy 2:1-2. See Malachi 1:11. See 1 Corinthians 16:1; 2 Corinthians 8:9. John 6:51. 1 Corinthians 11:24-25. See Exodus 13:3. See Hebrews 7:25-27. See 1 Corinthians 5:7. Luke 22:19-20. Matthew 26:28. See 1 Corinthians 11:23; Hebrews 7:24,27. See Hebrews 9:14,27. Romans 8:34. Matthew 18:20. See Matthew 25:31-46. See Matthew 26:26 ff; Mark 14:22 ff; Luke 22:19 ff; 1 Corinthians 11:24 ff. John 13:1. See Galatians 2:20. John 6:53. 1 Corinthians 11:27-29. See Matthew 8:8. John 6:56. John 6:57. See 1 Corinthians 12:13. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17. See Matthew 25:40. Matthew 26:29; see Luke 22:18; Mark 14:25. Revelation 1:4; 22:20; 1 Corinthians 16:22. 2 Peter 3:13. 2 Corinthians 4:7; Colossians 3:3. 2 Corinthians 5:1. See Mark 2:1-12. See Mark 1:15; Luke 15:18. 2 Corinthians 5:20. Matthew 5:24. 1 Corinthians 6:11. Galatians 3:27. 1 John 1:8. See Luke 11:4; Matthew 6:12. Ephesians 1:4; 5:27. Mark 1:15. See Acts 2:38. Psalm 51:17; see John 6:44; 12:32; 1 John 4:10. See Luke 22:61; John 21:15-17. Revelation 2:5,16. See Joel 2:12-13; Isaiah 1:16-17; Matthew 6:1-6; 16-18. See Ezekiel 36:26-27. Lamentations 5:21. See John 19:37; Zechariah 12:10. See John 16:8-9. See John 15:26; Acts 2:36-38. See Tobit 12:8; Matthew 6:1-18. 1 Peter 4:8; see James 5:20. See Amos 5:24; Isaiah 1:17. See Luke 9:23. See Mark 2:7. Mark 2:5,10; Luke 7:48. See John 20:21-23. 2 Corinthians 5:18. 2 Corinthians 5:20. See Luke 15; 19:9. Matthew 16:19; see Matthew 18:18; 28:16-20. See Matthew 5–7; Romans 12–15; 1 Corinthians 12–13; Galatians 5; Ephesians 4–6; etc. See Exodus 20:17; Matthew 5:28. See Luke 6:36. Romans 8:17; Romans 3:25; 1 John 2:1-2. See Philippians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 1:31; 2 Corinthians 10:17; Galatians 6:14; Luke 3:8. See John 20:23; 2 Corinthians 5:18. See Luke 15:32. See 1 Corinthians 12:26. John 5:24. Ephesians 4:22,24. Mark 2:5. See Mark 2:17. See James 5:14-16; Romans 8:17; Colossians 1:24; 2 Timothy 2:11-12; 1 Peter 4:13. See Psalms 6:3; 38; Isaiah 38. See Psalms 32:5; 38:5; 39:9,12; 107:20; see Mark 2:5-12. Exodus 15:26. See Isaiah 53:11. See Isaiah 33:24. Luke 7:16; see Matthew 4:24. See Mark 2:5-12. See Mark 2:17. Matthew 25:36. See Mark 5:34,36; 9:23. See Mark 7:32-36; 8:22-25. John 9:6-7. Luke 6:19; see Mark 1:41; 3:10; 6:56. Matthew 8:17; see Isaiah 53:4. John 1:29; see Isaiah 53:4-6. See Matthew 10:38. Mark 6:12-13. Mark 16:17-18. See Acts 9:34; 14:3. See Matthew 1:21; Acts 4:12. See 1 Corinthians 12:9,28,30. 2 Corinthians 12:9; Colossians 1:24. Matthew 10:8. See John 6:54,58; 1 Corinthians 11:30. James 5:14-15. James 5:14. See James 5:15. See Hebrews 2:15. James 5:15. John 6:54. See John 13:1. Hebrews 5:6; 7:11; Psalm 110:4. Exodus 19:6; see Isaiah 61:6. See Numbers 1:48-53; Joshua 13:33. Hebrews 5:1; see Exodus 29:1-30; Leviticus 8. See Malachi 2:7-9. See Hebrews 5:3; 7:27; 10:1-4. See Numbers 11:24-25. 1 Timothy 2:5. Hebrews 5:10; see 6:20; Genesis 14:18. Hebrews 7:26. Hebrews 10:14. Revelation 1:6; see Revelation 5:9-10; 1 Peter 2:5,9. See Mark 10:43-45; 1 Peter 5:3. See Acts 1:8; John 20:22-23; 1 Timothy 4:14; 2 Timothy 1:6-7. See Hebrews 5:1-10; 7:24; 9:11-28. See Acts 1:8. See 1 Corinthians 11:26. See Mark 10:45; Luke 22:27. See Ephesians 4:11. See Mark 3:14-19; Luke 6:12-16; 1 Timothy 3:1-13; 2 Timothy 1:6; Titus 1:5-9. See Hebrews 5:4. Matthew 19:12. 1 Corinthians 7:32. Revelation 19:7; see Genesis 1:26-27. 1 Corinthians 7:39; see Ephesians 5:31-32. See Genesis 1:27; 1 John 4:8,16. Genesis 1:28; see 1:31. Genesis 2:18. See Genesis 2:18-25. Genesis 2:24. Matthew 19:6. See Genesis 3:12. See Genesis 2:22; 3:16b. See Genesis 1:28; 3:16-19. See Genesis 3:21. Genesis 3:16,19. See Matthew 19:8; Deuteronomy 24:1. See Hosea 1–3; Isaiah 54; 62; Jeremiah 2–3; 31; Ezekiel 16; 23; Malachi 2:13-17. Song 8:6-2 (Song of Solomon 8:6-2). Revelation 19:7,9. See John 2:1-11. See Matthew 19:8. See Mark 8:34; Matthew 11:29-30. See Matthew 19:11. Ephesians 5:25-26,31-32; see Genesis 2:24. See Ephesians 5:26-27. See Luke 14:26; Mark 10:28-31. See Revelation 14:4; 1 Corinthians 7:32; Matthew 25:6. Matthew 19:12. See Mark 19:3-12. See 1 Corinthians 10:17. See Ephesians 5:32. Genesis 2:24; see Mark 10:8; Ephesians 5:31. 1 Corinthians 7:14. See 1 Corinthians 7:16. See Mark 10:9. Ephesians 5:21; see Galatians 6:2. Matthew 19:6; see Genesis 2:24. See Genesis 2:18; Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:28. See Acts 18:8. See Acts 16:31; Acts 11:14.

These scripture passages are supplemented on every page with citations and references to the interpretations and commentaries of the ancient Church Fathers east and west, Council documents, Ecumenical Council Documents, and Decrees and Encyclicals of the Popes of the Catholic Church.

The doctrine that the grace of salvation is through the precious blood of Christ alone is the sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church, supported by scripture, and apostolic tradition, and the dogmatic interpretation of both sacred scripture and apostolic tradition through the magisterium of the church, "the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth"—"and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it".
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:42, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

The question of whether the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has the scriptural authority of Jesus Christ Himself to preach the Gospel of salvation and to rightly teach the correct interpretation of scripture is debated on another page. See also (below). --Dataclarifier (talk) 06:25, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
According to the doctrine of the Catholic Church, the unmerited gift of justification and grace unto eternal salvation before death is immediately bestowed during the life of the baptized person by Jesus Christ through the ministry of the Church. They do not have to wait for death to be assured of salvation. If the baptized Christian perseveres to the end, the unmerited grace of salvation through Jesus Christ alone continues after death, and heaven is guaranteed. If the baptized person sins and forfeits salvation by committing a mortal sin, it can be restored by repentance and confession before death (1 John 1:8–2:6). See Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section 1, Chapter 3, article 2: Grace and Justification --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The Catholic doctrine of purgatory is debated on another page. See also (below). --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(See link to Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Final Purification, or Purgatory) --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:22, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven." --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:30, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that no one can earn salvation:
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.
2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life." The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.
For dedicated Catholics who know and love the faith of the Church in Jesus Christ Our Lord heaven begins here on earth and continues after death into eternity with God.
I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. —John 15:1-6 RSVCE
--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:32, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Paragraph 2008, "the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God" is directly contradicted by Romans 11:6 - And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:24, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(That statement makes scripture contradict itself.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace will further contradict other portions of catechism, such as Paragraph 2010, "Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions;" no more means no more.
(We ask God for an increase of the unmerited grace of his gift to be able to do good works. The very ability to do good is the gift of God, who expects us to cooperate with his free gift.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So you are saying God considers it a quid pro quo, not a free gift. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:08, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Ephesians 2:18 - For through him we both[1] have access in one Spirit to the Father. Through him, not through our merit. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:43, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
(That's what scripture and the catechism says.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
Mike Winger illustrates the point quite succinctly. He holds out his bible and says, "Here, you can have this for free;" then he draws it back and says, "it'll cost you $20." RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:13, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
That's a misrepresentation. God gives the free gift and says, "Now go do good with it." Those who don't even try will not be approved, unless before death they repent of their failure (refusal) to do anything good to please Him according to his will. --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
God requires doing good by the power of his grace. "Faith without works is dead" --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:35, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
  • Faith without works is dead, not "grace" without works is dead.
  • 2 Timothy 2:13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.
There are no works required of us to receive his grace - and particularly partaking in the Eucharist - otherwise grace is no more grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:03, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"...the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful."
"The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness."
"The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace."
"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it is said, When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." Ephesians 4:4-8
"for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." Philippians 2:13
Look at the parable of the talents freely given to each of the servants. They didn't earn them, they were an unmerited gift, but the Lord expected them to work with them, and he condemned the servant who did nothing with the gift, and took away what he had given, gave it to the one who gained most with his gift, and had them cast out the one who did not work any good with the gift into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
And as for those who give scandal to little ones in the church, look at the parable of the weeds in the field sown among the wheat. The Lord of the field said not to uproot the weeds lest they uproot the wheat with them, but to let both grow together, and then at harvest time to gather up the weeds for burning but to gather the wheat into his barns.
"For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immmortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious (schismatic, disobedient) and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Gentile, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Gentile. For God shows no partiality" Romans 2:6-11.
This is why the Church in one of her prayers of praise says, "In crowning your saints You are but crowning Your own gifts".--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:25, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

Bible Verses on Works, the Necessity of Good Works

  • Bible Verses on Works, the Necessity of Good Works (cgg.org) --a page display of the Bible text of 63 passages that speak plainly without any comment that you can readily read for yourself, shown in the following sequence:
    Ephesians 2:8-10; Philippians 2:12-13; John 14:15; Titus 2:14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:15-17; Ephesians 4:22-24; Titus 2:11-12; Revelation 20:12-13; Matthew 16:24; Romans 12:1-2; Hebrews 4:1; Hebrews 6:1; Matthew 16:27; Matthew 25:28-30; Romans 2:13; Hebrews 11:4; 1 John 2:3-6; 1 John 3:3; 1 John 5:3; Matthew 6:37; Matthew 19:16-19; John 6:27; John 15:8; John 15:16; Romans 6:1-2; Romans 6:4; Romans 6:18-19; Romans 8:7; 1 Corinthians 3:8-10; 1 Corinthians 15:58; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Corinthians 6:1; Ephesians 5:1-2; Colossians 3:8-10; Hebrews 6:10; Psalm 119:1; Psalm 119:10; Psalm 119:172; Proverbs 24:30-34; Matthew 7:21; Matthew 19:21-22; Matthew 25:14; Matthew 25:24-25; Matthew 25:41; Luke 13:24; John 15:14; Acts 5:32; Romans 5:5-11; Romans 7:22-23; Romans 14:12; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:19-20; 1 Corinthians 9:27; Galatians 5:6; Colossians 3:5; Colossians 3:23-24; Titus 1:16; Hebrews 11:7; 1 John 3:18; Revelation 2:23; Revelation 3:21; Revelation 19:7-8
    --Dataclarifier (talk) 17:20, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The question is not faith vs. works; the question is what is necessary to receive God's grace? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
According to Orthodox and Catholic doctrine, the sacraments. Good works animated by faith and the grace bestowed through the sacraments by the cooperation of faith in God's promises are necessary to receive God's grace. Grace is necessary to receive grace. As long as one does not place an obstacle to the receiving of grace from God's free giving of Himself through the sacraments, beginning with baptism, followed by the receiving of the teaching of all that Jesus commanded the apostles, grace is bestowed by God and received by the baptized Christian adopted as His child. Grace is lost by refusal to delight in doing good according to Christ's commands. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:18, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So grace is a free gift that has to be earned. Ok, that answers the question. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:11, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
No, we love because he first loved us. "Little children, let us not love in word or speech but in deed and in truth" 1 John 3:18. "Land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives blessing from God. But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned" Hebrews 6:7-8. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:58, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
The rain can also be an image of the Holy Spirit, and the grass covering can also be a picture of the atonement. So you're starting to loose me. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:06, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
The rain according to centuries of Christian apostolic tradition is the grace of salvation. The good vegetation is good works and the field producing them (the Christian) is blessed. And the thorns and thistles are sinful works and the field producing them (the Christian) is "near to being cursed; its end is to be burned" if there is no repentance. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
Isaiah 55:1-5, 8-10 - Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. 2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. 3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. 4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. 5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.....8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
A lot to unpack here, beginning with the free gift; then a prophecy of Christ; then the calling of a nation that thou knowest not; verse 8 and 9 seem to rebuke much of what Catechism tries to accomplish: my thoughts are not your thoughts,...my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts; verse 10 has no Apostolic tradition or doctrine of men behind it, and tells us about the seed of the sower -- which Jesus defines as the Word of God and not catechism; etc. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 16:46, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
He sows the seed through the Church. Apostolic tradition and doctrine is the witness. Hear and your soul will live.
The rain is free. Hebrews 6:7. The field does not cause the rain to fall on it. What each field produces in response is decisive of its fate. The branches of the vine are expected to produce fruit. John 15:1-10. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:53, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Ezekiel 16–18

The Bible says that salvation cannot be earned. This biblical doctrine is also Catholic doctrine, as shown above in the citations from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The Bible also says those who do not delight in cooperating with the will of God in doing good by the power of his grace with him through them and in them doing his works as a participation in and expression of his own divine nature as his own adopted children will be condemned.
The unmerited adoption by grace of God (which they did not earn) with the bestowing of the grace of free gifts on the people of Israel (which they did not earn), and, after all that God had done for them, their punishment for their persistent refusal to delight in doing good, after all that God had done for them, is illustrated in Ezekiel 16–18
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:03, 11 August 2020 (EDT)

If salvation cannot be earned, why do I have to do time in Purgatory since the blood of Christ in insufficient to cleanse all sin? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 19:10, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
The defect of lacking wholehearted service to God is the cause. Minor compromise by remnants of selfishness in what we do and fail to do as we really should. Imperfect love, but love nevertheless still remains. God is not willing that any should perish. There are different degrees of sin. Some are very minor sins committed after baptism. Others are so serious that they kill the life of the soul that has been saved. In that case there is absolutely no love of God above self. This includes refusing to do what is right in an important matter, such as denying Christ to avoid public shame or personal ruin or execution (martyrdom). The Christian knows that such things are a sin, and that it's a serious evil, and decides to do it anyway. Minor (venial) sins not sacramentally confessed and absolved before death are purged. Major (mortal) sins not sacramentally confessed and absolved before death condemn the soul to the second eternal death in the lake of fire. Both types of sins are done away in the sacrament of confession and absolution which applies the precious blood of Jesus Christ to the soul of the sinner, major and minor. See 1 John 5:14-17, John 20:21-23, and the link to Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Final Purification, or Purgatory. --Dataclarifier (talk) 19:21, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
“In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.”
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
(EDT)--Dataclarifier (talk) 21:23, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
So Christ died for nothing and you have to work your way out of Purgatory. Ok, that answers that question. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 22:12, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."—St. Paul. Catholic doctrine teaches that only through Christ Jesus are we saved. "And he who perseveres to the end will be saved."—Jesus. He forgives all sins and bestows the grace of eternal life in his name through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. Those in purgatory are saved through the mercy of Christ alone in justice and truth. This is plainly evident in all of the links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church provided on this page above showing the doctrine is fundamentally biblical.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
How does one work out your own salvation outside the dictates of the Magisterium? Didn't Martin Luther try to do that and the church called down anathema on him? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 12:01, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."—St. Paul (Ephesians 6:5). Catholic doctrine teaches that only through Christ Jesus are we saved. "And he who perseveres (endures) to the end will be saved."—Jesus (Matthew 10:23b). He forgives all sins and bestows the grace of eternal life in his name through the sacraments of the Catholic Church. Those in purgatory are saved through the mercy of Christ alone in justice and truth. This is plainly evident in all of the links to the Catechism of the Catholic Church provided on this page above showing the doctrine is fundamentally biblical.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:06, 11 August 2020 (EDT)
"...all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body". —Catechism of the Catholic Church paragraph 846. (cf. 1 Corinthians 12:4-30; Romans 12:4-8; 1 Timothy 3:15) --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:08, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Protestants join the Catholic Church when they study scripture for themselves

A Protestant Historian Discovers the Catholic Church - David Anders, Ph.D.

A Bible-Believer Becomes Catholic by Believing the Bible - Wesley Vincent, Ph.D.

The Verses I Never Saw As a Protestant Pastor - Marcus Grodi

Bible Converts Protestant to Catholic Faith - Lois Day

Conversion Stories - The Latest Stories (of conversions to Catholicism)

This One Quote Convinced Me to Convert to Catholicism - Albert Little

Dataclarifier's witness and testimony: from darkness into glorious light - Michael Paul Heart

--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:05, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

According to the Bible: Salvation can be lost, revoked, and forfeited

See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraphs 1036-1065. Abundant scripture is referenced and cited.

You cannot lose what you never had.
You cannot fall away from the truth you never believed.
You cannot go back or return to what you never left.
You cannot be led astray from where you never were.
You cannot be what you never were.
You cannot forfeit what was never yours.
A privilege cannot be revoked that was never granted you in the first place.

If salvation cannot be lost, as some teach, then there would be no warnings in the New Testament to Christians to remain faithful, to avoid sin and error, and to persevere to the end lest they be found wanting and be condemned with the unrighteous. St. Paul himself said,

"Not that I had already attained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the mark for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. Let those of us who are "perfect" be thus minded; and if in anything you are otherwise minded, God will reveal that also to you. Only let us hold true to what we have attained." Philippians 3:12-16.
(See multiple commentaries on Philippians 3:13.)
"Do you not know that in a race all the runners contend, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every man striving for mastery exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable crown. Therefore, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I control my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." 1 Corinthians 9:24-27.
(See multiple commentaries on 1 Corinthians 9:27.)

See James 3:13:

"Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show his works by a good life in the humility that comes from wisdom."

See Galatians 5:6

"For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (boldface emphasis added)

See Revelation 22:12:

"And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every one according to his work."

Those who oppose unconditional eternal security point out that if, according to the doctrine of Eternal Security, after receiving Christ as our personal Savior the grace of salvation cannot be lost, forfeited or revoked for any reason, for any sin whatever, then the warnings found throughout the New Testament would never have been written, warnings to believers to be careful not to fall away, not to be led astray into error, not to sin, not to act unrighteously, warnings not to return to indulging the lusts of the flesh, lest we lose what we have in Christ, would never have been written. If the grace of salvation cannot be lost, then such warnings would have been irrelevant, pointless, without purpose or justification and totally unnecessary. They would have no meaning.

  • If those who do such things are not real Christians then they have never been saved and do not have eternal life. You cannot lose what you never had. Warnings are useless. They have no meaning.
  • If those who are real Christians have been saved and do have eternal life that can never be lost then they are eternally secure and cannot be lost again. Or they were never lost. Warnings do not apply. There is no point to them. They have no meaning.
  • In either case, warnings have no meaning. It is not a biblical doctrine.

The Roman Catholic doctrine of grace is biblical. The faithful are warned not to sin and fall away from the faith, lest they lose what they have in Christ.

See 2 Peter 3:14-17.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:30, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Ex-Catholics who do not know their faith

Ex Catholics! (The Sad story of ex-Catholics who did not know their faith) - Bryan Mercier
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:40, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Below in the next section are citations of scripture removed out of context and directly applied to the Catholic Church, as if Jesus was speaking of the church He built on rock, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", the church which Paul called, "the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth" and saying,
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. —Ephesians 2:19-22
  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.

Keep in mind that Jesus was instead addressing Jewish Pharisaic hypocrisy inherent in the traditions of the fathers, the very same Jewish traditions of the fathers that Paul rejected. (See commentaries on Galatians 1:14.)

So Paul rejected the traditions of the fathers, but after Paul the Roman church embraced the traditions of the church fathers as equal to, and in some cases supplanting, the Bible. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:02, 13 August 2020 (EDT)


Jewish tradition is not the Christian tradition that Paul praises in 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6; 1  Corinthians 11:2.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:55, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Compare the context of Jewish traditions in Matthew 15:2-6; Mark 7:3-13; 1 Peter 1:18. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:14, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
  • Eph. 2:20 - Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone;
I thought you said it was Peter? You're confusing me with this excess verbiage from Catechism. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:39, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
What we have here appears to be a species of Cafeteria Christianity. You hijack Matthew 16:18, Thou art Peter and upon this rock... to usurp the sovereignty of God which God reserves to Himself, usurp spiritual authority of the Bible in order to teach doctrines of men, then elsewhere you claim Christ is the rock upon which the church is built. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:44, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
Christ the rock and chief cornerstone and the living stone is in Peter the rock and all twelve foundations of the church and all the living stones united together in him as one Savior of the world, his body, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the church that Christ Jesus himself the chief cornerstone and Son of God himself built on the "rock" of "Peter" (Rock) as he said he would, built by him on the twelve foundations of the new Jerusalem having on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, built by him on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, built of living stones into a spiritual house to offer spiritual sacrifices, the temple of God in the Holy Spirit, with us forever, leading into all truth, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, so that what the church he built teaches as doctrine must be the truth. --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:45, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
The Bible teaches that it is possible to fall away and lose what we have in Christ. Those who commit venial sin weaken their unity with the body of Christ himself, grieve the Holy Spirit, and by compromise with sin damage the life of their soul. They can be healed. Those who commit mortal sin have spiritually separated themselves, sundered their souls, from the whole body of Christ himself. The love of God is no longer in them. In no way are they any longer in reality members of the body of Christ. They have entirely fallen away from him. They are the weeds among the wheat in the field of the Lord. They have killed their soul. But even they can be restored before they die. That is the ministry of reconciliation. 2 Corinthians 5:18-20; 1 John 1:9. There is only one unforgivable sin. Matthew 12:30-32; 1 John 5:14-17. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:43, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
And in answer to the Debate question, "Is Roman Catholic doctrine of grace biblical?" you've provided very little about actual Roman Catholic doctrine of grace. About "sanctifying grace" vs. "actual grace"; about how one must be in a "state of grace" to receive communion; about how one must run back to the confession booth and communion railing to be restored to grace; how one must go through a mediator other than Christ to be absolved of their sins before receiving the transubstantiated host and restored to grace, etc. etc. etc. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:53, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
So let me get specific: in Roman Catholic doctrine, one is restored to a "state of grace" after receiving absolution from a mediator other than Christ but before partaking in communion; this grace is extended beyond receiving communion until it's nullified by sin. What exactly then is received at communion? Christ? the presence of Christ? the Holy Spirit? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 13:35, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
Whenever you say a priest is "a mediator other than Christ" you misrepresent Catholic doctrine with a Straw man fallacy. The priest is united to Christ in one body of Christ inseparable from Christ as mediator, to whom Christ has entrusted the ministry of reconciliation in his body the church as the Savior of the world, through whom Christ forgives by his authority. --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:58, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
  • Hebrews 10:14-22 - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,[2] 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
How does the Bible conflict with Roman Catholic doctrine in these few verses alone? let me count the ways.... RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:00, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
No conflict with James 5:19-20
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
No conflict with John 6:37b
and him who comes to me I will not cast out
No conflict with John 20:21-23
Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so send I you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
No conflict with 2 Corinthians 5:20 (addressed to Christians)
So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you in the place of Christ, be reconciled to God.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 15:01, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
Well, duh. That wasn't the question. I, rhetorically, pointed out all discrepancies between Roman Catholic doctrine and 8 contiguous verses from Hebrews. You're just taking up space and spamming deflections cause you evidently can't answer.
Let me address here one point you repeatedly use when you cannot answer biblical questions. You repeatedly cite "One body, one spirit," etc. Fine. But I do not believe you understand the significance of that. Those cites refer to the unity of doctrine between Jew and Gentile, as Paul, the Book of Acts, and others cover many times. It basically recaps the discussions related to those who preached ye must be circumcised, and has absolutely nothing to do with a doctrine of papal primacy. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:44, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
Then above you trash the doctrine of eternal security yet quote John 6:37b, him who comes to me I will not cast out.
You're not making your case on any of the things you are so deeply committed to. Why? Cause that Catechism is so big and bulky and riddled with errors and contradictions. It makes about as much sense as the U.S. Tax Code or federal regulations in the Federal Register after just the past 50 or 100 years, only the Roman Catholic church has a 1,900 year head start on making and collecting bad laws. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:52, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
According to the doctrine of Unconditional Eternal Security, after receiving Christ as our personal Savior the grace of salvation cannot be lost, forfeited or revoked for any reason, for any sin whatever. If this doctrine were true, then the warnings found throughout the New Testament would never have been written: warnings to believers to be careful not to fall away, not to be led astray into error, not to sin, not to act unrighteously, warnings not to return to indulging the lusts of the flesh, lest we lose what we have in Christ. If the grace of salvation cannot be lost, then such warnings would have been totally unnecessary. It would be impossible to lose our salvation through any fault of our own.
The doctrine of unconditional eternal security contradicts the Bible. Eternal security is a certainty, but only as long as the Christian fulfills the condition of not falling away and of persevering to the end. "But he who perseveres unto the end shall be saved." And if they refuse to persevere and they fall away through their own fault they can be restored when they come to him again. He will not cast them out. See 1 John 1:8-10 and James 5:19-20; John 20:21-23 and 1 John 4:14. "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." "My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." "Jesus said to them again, 'Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world." The priest who absolves sins in the confessional is a member of the body of Christ united to him as one Spirit forgiving sins through the ministry of reconciliation entrusted to him as ambassador for Christ, God making his appeal through him, beseeching sinners on behalf of Christ to be reconciled to God (see 1 Corinthians 6:17; 2 Corinthians 5:18-21 and 1 Corinthians 12:7-12; ). "for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Philippians 2:13. But not all have the same ministry (1 Corinthians 12:4-11). When the priest and bishop absolves sins in the confessional it is Christ himself who absolves sins through the saving ministry of the members of his own body the Church being one with his Bride as the Savior of the world. This he does through the one sacrifice of Christ which he applies directly to the soul of the sinner now reconciled to him. In Baptism, all previous sins commited up to that moment are totally removed, and God remembers their sins no more. Confession absolves and removes the eternal punishment of any sins committed after baptism, but some temporal punishment remains to be expiated by penance and good works done for love of God in reparation as an expression of justice and righteousness through the power of the grace of the Holy Spirit working in the repentant sinner, "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" Philippians 2:13. How can the love of God be in anyone who does not desire to do good or to keep the commandments of Christ? (see 1 John 3:2-24; 4:7-21). That's the teaching of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It's clearly not the teaching of Evangelical Protestantism. We don't deny that. It's undeniable. That is the core and heart of this debate. We are intercessors through the one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (see 1 Timothy 2:1-6). The priest-confessor and the sinner confessing are met (gathered) in the confessional in the name of the Lord, and Jesus is there (Matthew 18:20; 7:7; 21:22; 1 John 5:14-17; John 14:13). Be reconciled. Come to him. He will not cast you out. God is not willing that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9). --Dataclarifier (talk) 21:44, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
I think you mean 2 John, not 1 John. I don't want to get directly involved in this conversation, so don't drag me into it, I just want to make a minor correction. Shobson20 (talk) 23:44, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
2 John is one chapter of 13 verses. 1 John has five chapters. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:16, 20 August 2020 (EDT)
It's a very interesting debate. I tell you what: Go read the sections about King Manasseh and his later life, and King Solomon in his later life. Then come back here (or we can begin a new Debate page) and we'll examine those two questions: "Was King Manasseh saved?" and "Was King Solomon rejected and damned to hell for eternity?" We may not come to a conclusion in either case, but I suspect we may gain a greater understanding of God's grace and salvation. We won't be speaking theoretically either; we'll have two real life cases to apply what we know of scripture to. IMO, it would make for a better, livelier, and more interesting discussion.
(Oh, and before you moan and groan, remember, the gospel was preached to Israel in the wilderness, so these two Kings of Israel certainly knew what was necessary for salvation). RobSTrump 2Q2Q 23:28, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
According to Hebrews 11:39-40; Matthew 13:16-17; Ephesians 3:8-12; 1 Peter 3:18-19 and 21, all of the Old Testament saints, though well-attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, "since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect"; and fifteen hundred years after Israel was in the wilderness Jesus himself said to his disciples, "But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." And Saint Paul himself testified, "To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenlies. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him." And Saint Peter himself wrote, "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly did not obey", and asserted that Baptism now saves.
Yes, Hebrews 4:2 says that the good news, the gospel, came to us, to us was preached, just as to them in the wilderness. But the Letter to the Hebrews is also a warning to not fall away. The context is the promise of "entering his rest"—"And to whom did he swear that they should never enter his rest, but to those who were disobedient?" So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief [disobedience]. Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, "let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them; but the message which they heard did not meet with faith in the hearers. For we who have believed enter that rest" Hebrews 3:18–4:3. It also says, "If Joshua ("Jesus" KJV) had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God. [...] Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, that no one fall by the same sort of disobedience." Hebrews 5:8-9 and 11. And it also says, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned ("counted unholy" KJV) the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, 'Vengeance is mine, I will repay.' And again, 'The Lord will judge his people.' It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." Hebrews 10:23-31; see also Hebrews 6:4-12 (which teaches the same thing). "See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For it they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less shall we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven." Hebrews 12:25.
So, yes, the gospel of entering into his rest was preached to us as well as to Israel in the wilderness with the warning to not be disobedient. But the fullness of the gospel was also hidden for ages, and Israel in the wilderness did not see what the disciples of Christ saw, nor did they hear what the disciples of Christ heard, for many prophets and kings desired to see and hear it but did not, because it was not yet revealed. Hebrews says plainly that although all these were well-attested by their faith, they did not receive what was promised. The promise had to wait for its fulfillment in the preaching of Christ through the Church the message hidden for ages, which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, which they had not heard nor seen. What was preached to Israel in the wilderness was not the whole plan of salvation, but the promise of the good news of entering into the rest of God, which was preached to us as well as to them.
This is the understanding and interpretation of the Catholic Church. It is not the same understanding or interpretation of those who profess a gospel of grace that needs no works and does not require living a holy life after being justified, but simply salvation by faith alone once and forever without any need afterward of any struggle for perseverance in faith and good works of any kind whatsoever. That in a nutshell is the controversy at the core of the Debate over the biblical gospel of grace according to the Catholic Church and the biblical gospel of grace according to the Protestant Reformation, as represented here on this page. --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:16, 20 August 2020 (EDT)
Oh, and returning to the situation of King Manasseh and his later life and King Solomon and his later life, look at Luke 10:24: "For I tell you that many prophets and kings desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it." --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:42, 20 August 2020 (EDT)
Let's not pass over these points lightly. So Manasseh who made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the Lord had destroyed before the children of Israel, repented. Whereas when Solomon was old, his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the Lord his God, as was the heart of David his father. This hardly seems fair, huh? Manasseh repented but is remembered for all the evil he wrought, but Solomon continued in sin and is honored with being the author of three books of the Bible and considered "wise". I suggest we don't pass over this lightly, and if you wish to discuss eternal security, we begin right here with the cases of Manasseh and Solomon. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 00:25, 16 August 2020 (EDT) [1] reposted RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:57, 20 August 2020 (EDT)
I will add, but this more properly would go into a Debate on the doctrine of eternal security, while we can say Manasseh found grace, repentance, and salvation, an equally if not more important lesson from studying the lives of these two men is the consequences of sin. This is an important point for those who value the individual and personal relationship with God above that of society as a whole, the church, or Kingdom of Israel. While he himself, Manasseh was saved, the consequences of his sin - spiritual wickedness in high places, had a devastating effect on the rest of society leading to the ultimate destruction of the Kingdom of Israel and captivity. This is an area that deserves much more exploration including the case of Solomon. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:14, 20 August 2020 (EDT)


Let me reiterate an important distinction of difference in this debate.
Below in the next section are citations of scripture removed out of context and directly applied to the Catholic Church, as if Jesus was speaking of the church He built on rock, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", the church which Paul called, "the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth".
  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.
Keep in mind that Jesus was not referring to the church. He was instead addressing Jewish Pharisaic hypocrisy inherent in the traditions of the fathers, the very same Jewish traditions of the fathers that Paul rejected.
The Jewish tradition of the fathers is not the Christian tradition of the apostles that Paul praises in 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6; 1  Corinthians 11:2. --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:55, 20 August 2020 (EDT)

User: Nishant Xavier

We can fall from Grace into mortal sin

The Bible says we can be "fallen from Grace" (Gal 5:4). That implies the State of Grace is a habitual state from which we can fall. There are many other passages that confirm this, that Grace can be lost, many of which have been ably cited by DataClarifier.

Again, by Grace we pass over from death to life. But through deadly or mortal sin, we can fall back, if we are not careful, into the state of death and sin. St. John wrote, "...There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it." (1 Jn 5:16).

So if we commit the grave "sin unto death" or mortal sin, then we are fallen from the state of Grace. This is simply the doctrine of the whole Bible. When King David comitted adultery (a sin unto death), he prayed "Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" (Psa 51:11).

Why did he pray like that? (1) Because it is possible to lose the Holy Spirit through grave sin, or sin unto death. and (2) because he hoped to be restored to that State of Grace, from which he had fallen by mortal sin. The passage shows that is possible as well.

So the Holy Spirit was given in the Old Testament. There is no record of David being baptized. RobSTrump 2Q2Q

Section summary

The infallible promises of Christ Jesus the Son of God

So let's be very clear about this. In Summary:

  • According to the above argument, the gates of hell have prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, and therefore it cannot be the pillar and ground of the truth as Paul testified it is.
  • Jesus said by his own divine authority that the gates of hell shall never prevail against the church he built.
  • But you say it happened.
  • Jesus said by his own divine authority that he is with us (addressed to the apostles) always, to the end of the world.
  • But you say he did not remain always with their appointed apostolic successors in the church he founded, the church that still exists to this day.
  • Jesus said another Counsellor, the Spirit of truth given by the Father would be with us for ever, and that the Spirit of truth would guide us into all the truth.
  • But you say he did not remain with the church for ever, and did not continuously guide the church into all the truth for ever, from the time of the apostles to this present day.
  • Paul said the church is the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom we also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
  • But you say the church is no longer the pillar of the truth and a holy temple in the Lord and a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. And you say that the same church as identified by an unbroken continuous line of apostolic succession is built on the lies and blasphemies of Satan, and not the truth.
  • Paul said in the church God has appointed apostles, prophets, teachers, workers of miracles, healers, helpers, administrators, and speakers in various languages; and that in the church are bishops, presbyteroi (priests/elders), and deacons.
  • But you say these are done away by the Bible as the sole rule of faith and authority.
  • Paul said that all authority is established by God, and whoever resists authority resists what God has established, and that those who resist what God has established will be condemned.
  • But you say that true Christians are duty-bound to resist the established authority of the church when they personally judge that it is wrong, and not to listen.
  • Peter said to submit to the elders and be clothed with humility, for God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble, and therefore to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God that in due time he may exalt you.
  • But you say we are not obligated to submit to others' authority.
  • The Letter to the Hebrews says to obey our leaders who spoke the word of God to us, in the historical context, those leaders of the existing church in the first century established since the time of the apostles.
  • But you say we should disobey the leaders of the church who have preserved the Bible and draw doctrine directly from it as the word of God that they speak in every celebration of the Catholic Mass.
  • Jesus said that anyone who will not listen to the church is to be rejected as the Jews rejected tax collectors and pagans, and said that whoever has an ear is to listen to what the Spirit says to the churches.
  • But you praise those who did not and do not listen to the church Jesus built on a rock and who did not and do not listen to the churches that have continually existed since the first century, both at the time John wrote the book of Revelation and since that time to the present day.
  • Jesus said that unless a man is regenerated by water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Paul washed away his sins by being baptized, and Peter said that baptism saves now; and Paul, again, that God saves us in virtue of his own mercy by the water-washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, and that God loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.
  • But you say that baptism does not save and does not regenerate and does not cleanse away sin or wash away sin by water and the word.
  • James says that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
  • But you say that faith alone justifies, not works.
  • Jesus and Paul both say that all will be judged according to their works.
  • But you say no believer saved by faith alone will be judged.
  • Jesus said to the apostles, "Whosesoever sins you forgive are forgiven, and whosesoever sins you retain are retained." The entire context of the New Testament warns that we can fall away and forfeit eternal life by mortal sins "unto death", but that we can be brought back by confession to those entrusted with the ministry of reconciliation and absolution as ambassadors of God, God speaking by them, for if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. It was not to them alone that it was said, but to us on whom the end of the ages has come.
  • But you say that this is idolatry and a demonic doctrine, that no one has been given the power of God to forgive sins.
  • Jesus said that his flesh and blood are real food and drink, and that unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you do not have life in you, and that whoever eats his flesh and drinks his blood has eternal life. (the word for "eat" trogŏn τρώώγων in John 6:27-58 is not figurative in the Greek text, but only literal and physical in meaning[3])
  • But you say this is only a metaphor and does not and never did literally mean eating and drinking his flesh and blood, and that communion does not give eternal life.
Catholics believe the word of Christ and what he promised forever.
For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why we utter the Amen through him, to the glory of God. But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
—2 Corinthians 1:20-22
--Dataclarifier (talk) 04:56, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
From the first century to the present day there have been those who disobeyed their leaders who spoke the word of God, rejected the traditions of the apostles, and insisted on private interpretation of the scriptures, who went out and taught a different gospel than the one delivered to them by their teachers, and who by this visible pattern of behavior showed that they were antichrists.
According to history the Catholic Church dominated and led by its leaders as shepherds of the flock having established authority to make disciples of all nations, was not founded by those who disobeyed, went out, and taught a different gospel from the one they had been taught. The question of who has the true doctrine of Christ is settled by scripture, as outlined above. Ask this question about those who founded your church, and about those who do not profess any particular church but claim the authority of the Bible alone as interpreted by themselves: did they and do they disbelieve and disobey Hebrews 13:7,17; Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; John 14:16; 16:13 and 15:1-6.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 06:44, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

Rebuttal to antagonists in good faith

The [below antagonist] comments are, from a Catholic standpoint, unfortunate erroneous distortions and misrepresentations of Catholic doctrines and dogmas regarding the biblically-based doctrines of Grace and Justification in the Catholic Church. There is a difference between unintentional falsehoods due to ignorance of actual Catholic teaching based on specious reasoning, and deliberate lies.
See for yourself what the actual teaching is: click here: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section One, Chapter Three, Article 2 Grace and Justification, CCC paragraphs 1987-2029 (nine and a half pages in the hardbound book).
For example:
1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion.
2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

2019 Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.

May God give you light. Amen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 02:02, 21 August 2020 (EDT)

This makes no sense: "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace". All sinners are justified? Is that really Roman Catholic doctrine? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:55, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
And this: "no one can merit the initial grace". If grace has to be "merited", grace is not grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:59, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
And this: "grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God"; no, you have Christ and the Holy Spirit mixed up.
  • Roman 3:22 - this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:04, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
Not everyone is willing to accept the undistorted doctrine of Christian Catholicism as supported by the Bible. That is a straightforward fact. Undeniable. The Church Jesus founded on a rock is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, whose elders and leaders scripture commands us to obey, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, and those who disobeyed and went out and taught another gospel and another Christ than what they were taught were antichrist.
The opposition appears to say with all persistence that Satan and hell did prevail, and that it still does prevail against the Church Jesus originally founded, and that the Church Jesus originally founded apostatized and became, and still is, the pillar and bulwark of lies from hell. I don't think we have misunderstood that position of the Reformation so firmly and uncompromisingly defended on this page.
Now, regarding the statement made in the following section below (No, the gospel promises us abounding grace: Section summary)
...replacing grace with the Roman church's infamous gospel of condemnation and wrath: that whosoever disregards or denies the pope and Roman curia's pretensions to power are servants of Satan, the anti-Christ, and condemned to hell. Roman Catholic doctrine is a gospel of wrath, not grace.
The Bible itself uses such condemnations of wrath against disobedient, defiant and rebellious individuals who will not listen, in particular and in general: statements by Jesus in the Gospel, also Paul, Peter, Luke, James, Jude, Hebrews, and Revelation, all in the inspired scriptures of God:
Jesus:
Matthew 7:1-6; 23:31-33; 25:41-46; Mark 8:38; 9:43; 16:16; Luke 11:30; John 8:43-44,55;
The Apostles and Evangelists:
Acts 13:10; Romans 13:1-2; Galatians 1:9; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9; 1 Timothy 1:6-7; 4:1-2; 5:20; Titus 3:9-11; Hebrews 10:26-31; James 4:1-10; 2 Peter 2:1; 3:3,16; 1 John 2:18-19; 3:4-10,15; 2 John 7-10; Revelation 22:18-19
So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.
Romans 11:20b-23 —emphasis added
And regarding scandals in the church, see the parable of the tares and the wheat allowed to grow together until the time of the harvest when the tares shall be gathered out of the kingdom and burned: Matthew 13:25-40
An explanation is needed for how the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen. Jesus is God Who cannot lie.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 11:39, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
Oh, so you cannot answer three specific points where catechism, i.e., the doctrines of sinful men, conflict with the Bible.
(A) God did not pass his sovereignty to sinful men in Matthew 18:18, whatsoever you bind on earth...; (B) The Church is not God; (C) the pope is not Christ. (D) sinful men cannot change the Word of God; (D) the Church cannot give salvation; (E) Roman Catholic doctrine is idolatrous, replacing God, God's sovereignty, God's Word, and God's salvation with worship of the church and men.
Again, in response to three simple questions about the Bible, your only response is to double down on condemnation for those who reject the doctrines of sinful men for the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Church is not God. The Body of Christ does not give salvation. This is idolatry. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:05, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
Let's return to this first absurd, if not outright Satanic claim quoted directly from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church:
  • "since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace";
All are not justified by grace. Only those who are in Christ are justified.
  • Romans 8:1 - There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:13, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
Catechism is like Wikipedia; nobody has a clue who wrote this garbage over the past 2,000 years which contradicts and nullifies the Bible. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:32, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
And a word on specious reasoning: What can be a better example of specious reasoning other than to introduce a doctrine, the Roman Catholic Catechism, authored by an anonymous Magisterium over two millennia - which directly contradicts and nullifies the Bible - and then attempt to support or justify this doctrine with specific citations to the Bible? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:04, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
Dataclarifier again unwittingly makes the argument for sola fide; above we have defined disobedience as a lack of faith. In this section he says, "The Bible itself uses such condemnations of wrath against [the] disobedient". Disobedience is not trusting God or believing what God says in his Bible (i.e. lack of faith, essentially doubting that God really means what he says and/or calling God a liar). Disobedience (lack of faith) is idolatry. By faith (believing what God says) are ye saved. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:16, 21 August 2020 (EDT)
He created us in Christ Jesus for good works, and we shall all be judged according to our works. Ephesians 2:10 and Revelation 22:12; Matthew 7:15-23; 16:27; Titus 1:16.
You say: All are not justified by grace. Only those who are in Christ are justified.. But Paul himself wrote in 1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV):
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
And in Romans 3:23-24
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
As John himself wrote in the Gospel:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
As he wrote in his First Letter
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
He has therefore saved the whole world.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. —II Peter 3:9
But those who have been thus justified (the whole world of sinners) but who nevertheless refuse to believe and refuse do what pleases him will be condemned, because they reject the precious gift of God, and turn and fall away from him. The whole context of the New Testament says in very clear warnings, that those who have been saved and justified (the whole world of sinners) as individuals can each fall away and forfeit eternal life if they do not seek to do the will of God.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 06:44, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
John also wrote,
  • As many as received him gave he power to become sons of God ("children of God" in today's politically correct translations)
You must receive him. As in contract law, there is offer and acceptance. You must accept God's offer of free grace. The Jews and Pharisees refused to accept him:
  • Ye are of your father the devil.
While God's offer of grace is indeed open to all, you must accept it for it to be valid. The idea of sinners being "justified" who have not accepted God's offer of grace is a deceptive, Satanic teaching. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:04, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
This is exactly what the ekklasia (church) is - the Called Out Ones. God is calling out a people unto himself, just as he did in Egypt. God offers us free grace, we must respond or we remain citizens of the world and children of the devil. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:14, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Scripture rightly interpreted does not contradict scripture. God has saved the whole world. The Bible says so, as quoted above. All have been justified freely by his gift of grace. Those who refuse to accept the offer of grace bestowed as a gift on all will be condemned. Just as those who each received the free gift of the coins were expected to produce fruit, and the one among them who did not (the worthless servant) was condemned. Matthew 25:14-30; John 15:1-6. Those who do not place in the way of God's grace any impediment to reception in their souls of the grace of salvation in Christ are saved, and become by the power of his grace sons of God (become, not instantly made sons of God), as evidenced by their works of faithful obedience to his goodness as to a loving Father, for God is at work in them, both to will and to do for his good pleasure. Philippians 2:13
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:25, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Your citation to John above shows that the whole world is not saved:
  • the world through him might be saved.
Only those who accept God's offer of free grace and receive him are saved. John would have used the term shall if all sinners were justified by grace, as Catholic catechism teaches. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:30, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
DC says, "All have been justified freely by his gift of grace." If this were true, why is Hitler and Charles Manson condemned? I know I know. Don't answer, cause they refused the sacraments, etc.
Better yet, why the need for infant baptism if all are justified? Hmmm, evidently again, like purgatory, God did not "justify all sinners" by his grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:37, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
  • There is therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
This is the proper meaning of justification - no condemnation. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 07:40, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Those who commit mortal sin have severed themselves from Christ and have forfeited the grace of salvation offered to all the whole world. They are no longer in Christ. They are condemned. But they can be reconciled through the ministry of reconciliation entrusted to the ambassadors of Christ, God speaking by them, "Be reconciled to God". --Dataclarifier (talk) 07:55, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Your posting here implies, again, that by the offer of God's grace the whole world is "justified from sin" without having to receive Christ (John as many as received him....). No, the offer of God's free grace requires us to react or respond by accepting this grace. Any other teaching or interpretation is a grossly errant doctrine. And you've cited it specifically in CCC Para 1992. Are you not convinced yet this is a doctrine of men, and not of God? See Isaiah 3:12, they which lead thee cause thee to err. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:39, 22 August 2020 (EDT)


The Catholic doctrine of Invincible ignorance has been clearly revealed through scripture and the Magisterium of the Church as the mercy of God to those who are not culpable for what they did not know but would have embraced if they had known it because in their hearts they truly desire to do what God wills. --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Jesus by one sacrifice once for all (bestowing that grace on all through his church his body through his sacraments) has saved and justified all the whole world. That is why Paul wrote in Romans that now God will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God. —Romans 2:7-11
"No respect of persons" excludes the elitist doctrine of the elect alone being saved, specially selected persons he has chosen above all others, and having respect to them and to no one else, since Christ is the Savior of the whole world. And because the whole world has been saved and justified by the sacrifice of Christ once for all, all that remains is to delight in doing what pleases him by the power of his grace in us to be able to do his will and so become sons of God, and to faithfully persevere to the end and so be saved. Matthew 10:22.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:49, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
I see where you are going with this. If any of what you claim is true, that Christ saved and justified the whole world, why then the need for infant baptism? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Jesus established it. John 3:5; Matthew 28:19-20. That includes the baptism of desire for baptism if only they knew of its necessity. The desire to do the whole will of God includes implicit obedience to the Church which he has made the source of salvation being the Body of Christ Himself dwelling in her as the Savior of the whole world. But not all are aware of this, and God looks upon their hearts. But those who do know it and refuse cannot be saved, except they repent and confess their sin against his Holy Spirit as the indwelling soul of the church, the dwelling place of God in the Spirit. The Spirit of the Church is not Satan. Matthew 12:30-37.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:05, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
It still doesn't make any sense. If Jesus died to remove our sins as far as the east is from the west, why are people still born in sin? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:11, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Except for Mary who was saved beforehand by the salvation of Christ at the moment she was conceived, for the sake of Christ alone, "a body thou hast prepared for me", all are conceived in sin, and all respond to the freely-given grace of God, some willing to receive it and others unwilling to receive it, but all souls in their hearts are given the offer of salvation. Some in the inner recesses of their hearts and souls desire it in humility, others in the inner recesses of their hearts and souls reject it out of pride. This involves the Catholic doctrine of free will in the soul of man. --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:23, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Yes, free will is something we definitely need to discuss; infant baptism which allegedly makes a person a member of God's elect denies free will. But that's a debate for a different day. For now, I'm focusing on God's grace and the ekklasia (the Called Out Ones or God's church).
2 Corinthians 6:1-2, 17-18 - We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) ... 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Interestingly, 2 Corinthians chapter 6 verses 17-18 also answers your questions about denominationalism as well as the points raised earlier from John chapter 1, as many as received him and the world might be saved. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 08:37, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Those baptized as infants have been given the saving grace of God. They are raised by their parents in the saving faith of Christ which they accept from their parents as truth, until they begin to question it. If they decide to doubt the grace of God and salvation in Christ alone in the Church and the Holy Spirit dwelling in her as his Bride and Body leading into all truth forever and refuse to seek to do the will of God and fall away by mortal sin they are severed from Christ and forfeit eternal life. They are like the prodigal son who was already given his inheritance and squandered it and came close to starving to death. But like him they can return to what they lost.
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. —James 5:19-20.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 08:53, 22 August 2020 (EDT)


An explanation is still needed for how the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 08:41, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
"and the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock." Matthew 7:25 --Dataclarifier (talk) 09:24, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
That's simple. God never passed his sovereign authority to sinful men. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:03, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Where does the Bible say that?--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:23, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Are you making the contention that God did pass his sovereign authority to sinful men? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:29, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Even more simple: the scribes and the Pharisees said, "Who is this who even forgives sins. Only God can forgive sins"—"This man blasphemes. Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world.
The disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one.
God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
The scriptures cited here show clearly that the Church has the biblical authority of Christ himself acting in her and with her as his Body, one with him, bestowing his saving grace on all who do not reject him or flee from him (John 3:19-21).
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:23, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Here, we would need to expand the discussion to a new Debate page on law vs. grace. Roman Catholic claims are based upon a doctrine of law, however the Bible says by grace are ye saved. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:08, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
"by grace are ye saved"—That's the doctrine of the Catholic Church:
click here: Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part Three, Section One, Chapter Three, Article 2 Grace and Justification, CCC paragraphs 1987-2029
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:59, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
No it's not, cause you just made extensive postings that whosoever does not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic church are condemned. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:06, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Who's right? God, who says by grace are ye saved, or the Roman church that says whosoever disobeys the supposed authority of the Roman church is condemned? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:12, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
There is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.
God in Christ built his church on a rock and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, "a dwelling place of God in the Spirit".
An explanation is still needed for how the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:18, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
You're recycling arguments that should be on the Magisterium debate page. You are not putting forward a Roman Catholic doctrine of grace.
Yes, I am, and I did, by providing the link above to the Catechism of the Catholic Church Grace and Justification. The doctrine of the Church is a mercy from God pointing to the grace bestowed in Christ through his precious blood by his Spirit to all mankind through the ministry of his Church sent by him as the Father sent him, as the Savior of the world. That's the grace of God. Not all accept it or want to receive it. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:32, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
We are saved by grace, through faith (faith, defined as trust or obedience to God; disobedience is the word received not mixed with faith or trust in God, hence the disobedient are under law, not grace. Roman church law is for the disobedient or unsaved). RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:21, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
We are saved by grace, through obedient trusting faith in Him Who built his church on a rock and promised that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Church doctrine is for the salvation of the world. Whosoever will may come and partake of the divine nature (see 2 Peter 1:3-11). --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:32, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
An explanation is still needed for how the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen. God cannot lie. --Dataclarifier (talk) 10:37, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
The explanation is simple: both parts of you post above, twisting Ephesians chapter 2 by adding a section from Matthew to it, and you misinterpretation of Matthew chapters 16 and 18, are all built upon doctrines of men. And again let me reiterate, as you yourself have so extensively made clear, Roman Catholic teaching is a doctrine of law, not of grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:56, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
And we have already made clear, which you yourself have admitted to, that the gospel of salvation by grace and the presence of the Holy Spirit already existed in the Old Testament, with Israel in the wilderness, and with David and Manasseh (and maybe Solomon as well). This should be enough to disprove all your claims about the Roman church being founded upon Peter, etc. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:03, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
You are putting words in my mouth and using the straw man fallacy instead of accepting what the scriptures say about the authority of the church that Jesus built on a rock. God established a new covenant not like the one he established with the fathers through the old covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-34. He built his church on a rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, "and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock". God cannot lie. --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:22, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Whenever you make up your mind who the rock is that the church is built on, let me know. In the meantime, God calls it disobedience for not believing him. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:49, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
The New Covenant is based upon grace and includes the Gentiles - that's how it's different.
Let me draw a parallel. Israel was offered grace in the wilderness. Israel rejected grace and was given law, which cannot save and can only condemn. In New Testament times, the whole world, including Gentiles, was offered grace (that's how it's different as prophesied by Jeremiah); the Roman church centuries later rejected grace and returned to, or adopted, law which cannot save. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:33, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
The Church has never rejected grace: Catechism of the Catholic Church Grace and Justification --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:41, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
  • By grace are ye saved, through faith, not of works
How many more centuries do you care to waste not accepting God's word? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:49, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
And your posting above places you in a quandary; you've expended countless bytes arguing that the rock is not Christ, but Peter. God is not the author of confusion.RobSTrump 2Q2Q 11:40, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Not at all. Christ the rock and chief cornerstone and the living stone is in Peter the rock ("Christ in you the hope of glory") and in all twelve foundations of the church and in all the living stones united together in him as one Savior of the world, his body, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the church that Christ Jesus himself the chief cornerstone and Son of God himself built on the "rock" of "Peter" (Rock) as he said he would, built by him on the twelve foundations of the new Jerusalem having on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, built by him on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, having established authority instituted by God, built of living stones into a spiritual house to offer spiritual sacrifices, the temple of God in the Holy Spirit, with us forever, leading into all truth, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, so that what the church he built teaches as doctrine must be the truth.
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen. —Ephesians 3:20-21
and lo, I am with you always —Matthew 28:20b
An explanation is still needed for how the gates of hell prevailed against the church Jesus founded on a rock, when He Himself said it could never happen. God cannot lie. --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:45, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
You're not even arguing in good faith anymore. You spent months on other pages claiming that Christ is not the rock upon which the church is built. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:49, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
Immediately below in the next section are citations of scripture removed out of context and directly applied to the Catholic Church, as if Jesus was speaking of the church He built on rock, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it", the church which Paul called, "the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth"'
  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.
Keep in mind that Jesus was instead addressing Jewish Pharisaic hypocrisy inherent in the traditions of the fathers, the very same Jewish traditions of the fathers that Paul rejected. (See commentaries on Galatians 1:14.)
Jewish tradition is not the Christian tradition that Paul praises in 2 Thessalonians 2:15; 3:6; 1  Corinthians 11:2.
Compare the context of Jewish traditions in Matthew 15:2-6; Mark 7:3-13; 1 Peter 1:18. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:40, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
  • 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
This quotation is taken out of context and used to misrepresent and oppose the Catholic doctrine of Intercession by ignoring the whole biblical context of the passage of verses immediately preceding it, in which Paul says
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. —1 Timothy 2:1-6
There is only one mediator, but there are also many intercessors.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:00, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
You're just spamming redundant spam now. You have not articulated the Roman Catholic doctrine of grace. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 17:49, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
One mediator, huh?
CCC 1456:...When Christ's faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest [my bolden and emphasis added][4]
Job 5:13 - He catches the wise in their own craftiness.
RobSTrump 2Q2Q 18:23, 22 August 2020 (EDT)
I concede that there is a difference between the intercessory prayer that DC mentioned before, and Christ's role as mediator, but RobSmith is right when he says that the role of the Priest is that of mediation. Shobson20 (talk) 18:41, 22 August 2020 (EDT)

No, the gospel promises us abounding grace

  • Matthew 15:8-9 - This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.
  • Mark 7:13 - making the word of God of no effect through your tradition which you have handed down. And many such things you do.
  • Ephesians 2:8-9 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast.
  • Galatians 2:21 - if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
  • Romans 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
  • Romans 3:27-28 - Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
  • Hebrews 7:27 - Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
  • Hebrews 10:14-22 - For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” 17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus,[5] 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
  • 1 Timothy 2:5 - For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

User:Shobson20

The Catholic Church has effectively done the same as the Pharisees in the scripture cited above.

The Pope (and Catholic authority) has taught a different Gospel

Pope Francis has run against Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!" [2]

The Catholic authority says "faith and works" but the Bible says "Faith and NOT works." [3][4][5] Romans 11:6 says that adding works into the equation nullifies the concept of grace, therefore, they CANNOT mix. Catholic attempts to use other scripture out of context nullifies the clear meaning of these verses. Here are examples: [6] [7] [8] Those who are saved will do good works and are called to do so, but the works are not what saves. Keep this in mind when reading verses about doing works.

Critical thinking vs appeal to authority

Catholic side of debates relies on appeals to authority from people who happen to agree with the Catholic interpretation regarding the Apostle Peter. However, the Protestant side has used critical thinking to actually compare whether the teachings of the Roman Catholic Magesterium has been consistent with the teachings of Scripture. Mike Winger in the video linked above shows conclusively that Pope Francis has not. James G. McCarthy created a simple Pamphlet detailing how Roman Catholic doctrine is in conflict with the word of God in several places: [9] and authored the longer "The Gospel According to Rome: Comparing Catholic Tradition and the Word of God." [10] Richard Bennett, former Catholic Priest of 20 years details the doctrinal problems and bad fruits of the Catholic Church in Catholicism: East of Eden [11]

"Critical thinking" can be a "tradition of men" too. Colossians 2:8 says, paraphrased, "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception OF tradition OF men OF elements OF principles OF the world, rather than OF Christ." VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 21:44, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
Blind appeals to authority can just as much (if not more) lead you into traditions of men too. Critical thinking is the ability to figure out what is of God vs. of men. Shobson20 (talk) 17:06, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Catholics leave the Catholic Church when they study scripture for themselves

[12] [13] Historically, most laypeople have been illiterate and did not have direct access to the Bible, so they were dependent on what religious leaders told them. In an era where all of scripture has been translated, anyone can fact-check what their leaders tell them just as the Bereans did in Acts 17:11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true." The congregation must be modern-day Bereans and only submit to church leaders whose teaching are in harmony with the scriptures.

User:RobSmith was raised Catholic, but said in his own talk page:

“ "In parochial school I heard the word read everyday at mass for 8 years, and it didn't square up with what we were taught in catechism and religion class. The priests and nuns couldn't resolve the questions where the Roman Church and bible seemed to be in direct conflict. I wasn't alone in this - I have three brothers and numerous friends who also were confused by the contradictions. In those days Catholic law forbade independent reading of the scripture.

We used to joke about the Assumption of Mary, that Church law and church tradition "assumed" Mary was levitated cause it appears nowhere in the Bible. Image the shock years later when you discover that the joke is literally true."

”

Former Catholic priest Richard Bennett left the Catholic Church when he began to seriously study the Bible: [14]

“ While I had learned earlier that God’s Word is absolute, I still went through this agony of trying to maintain the Roman Catholic Church as holding more authority than God’s Word, even in issues where the Church of Rome was saying the exact opposite to what was in the Bible. How could this be? First, it was my own fault. If I had accepted the authority of the Bible as supreme, I would have been convicted by God’s Word to give up my priestly role as mediator, but that was too precious to me. Second, no one ever questioned what I did as a priest. Christians from overseas came to Mass, saw our sacred oils, holy water, medals, statues, vestments, rituals, and never said a word! The marvelous style, symbolism, music, and artistic taste of the Roman Church were all very captivating. Incense not only smells pungent, but to the mind it spells mystery. ”

Former Catholic nun Alicia Simpson likewise: [15]

“ In due time, I went with a bus from our church. For the first time in my life I found myself in a vast evangelical gathering. I had no idea what was going on. There I saw the words, “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life”, and I heard for the first time the words, “Ye must be born again.” There was a new way of preaching from the Bible, very different from anything I had ever heard. My interest was truly aroused and questions were arising in my mind. Was there salvation outside the Church of Rome? The preacher said that salvation was obtained through believing in the finished work of Christ at Calvary, not through belonging to any particular church. All my training and indoctrination denied such a possibility. But this preacher kept asking us to repent and come to Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Who was right? ”

God's gifts are irrevocable

Romans 11:29-31 "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you." The context is clearly the gift of salvation. an ability to lose salvation makes it revocable. [16]

Yes, gift of the means to run the race well. The gift of the means to fight the good fight. You are starting to follow an "OF tradition OF men OF elements OF principles OF the world" philosophy, instead a faith OF Christ. People try to combine a Christian faith with worldly success and fall grievously. Their faith is forgotten, they fall away and end up hardly saved if it all, when they HAD the means of salvation that they didn't have to lose, because they would have known that nothing could have separated them from the love of Christ. VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 22:03, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
In Ephesians 2:8-9 also says that salvation is a gift of God. Adding works to the equation at any point nullifies the concept of Grace (Romans 11:6). You seem to be ignoring what it clearly says there and putting something else in it's place. Works are not unimportant, James 2 makes clear that faith without works calls that faith into serious question at the very least, or at worst, proves that faith is not real (Protestants are often of two minds on the subject). 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 shows that good work will survive, but useless work will be burned, but the man will still be saved. Which side are you on, anyway? If you're on the Catholic side, you should post in the Catholic section. Back-and-forth conversations tend to make these pages confusing and hard to follow. Shobson20 (talk) 22:53, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
If you are going to philosophize with critical thinking, do you understand the dichotomy of normative and terminal? If it's hard to follow, it's not my fault; XavierNishant gave the "Catholic" position on assurance of grace in the form of an amphiboly (word construction with two meanings), so I don't even know what the Catholic position is. I don't know. Does having burned works make a qualitative difference in the hereafter? VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 23:58, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
Yes, those whose works are not burned get Heavenly reward, here's an explanation: [17] When you understand the difference between the Bema Seat and the Great White Throne, it smooths out a whole lot of confusion. Shobson20 (talk) 00:05, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Here are some following premises:

A)Salvation is a gift

B)Gifts are irrevocable

C)Catholic teaching teaches that salvation can be lost, therefore violating premise B.

Even if one can find a supposed "proof-text" that one can lose salvation, if that interpretation violates premises A and B, there is a problem with that interpretation.

[18] [19] [20]

Here are some useful links for those who wonder why the Bible warns about falling away: [21] [22] [23]

Free gifts are free period, and sacraments are works

The requirement of doing sacraments, by simple straightforward logic, requires something to be earned and not freely given. Catholics could potentially boast in their own keeping of their Sacraments, and would therefore have something to boast about before other people, but Ephesians 2:9 says that "no one may boast."

Jesus has done all the necessary work, the church only delivers the message

John 17:4 "I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do." Hebrews 7:27 "Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself." Catholic Eucharist, despite how it's often spun, is replacing the old Jewish sacrificial ritual with another. It denies the sufficiency of Christs work. The Catholic explanation is that "God works through the Sacraments" but that suggests that what Jesus did back then was not enough, that additional "sacraments"--which require works and acts of volition on the part of the believer--are necessary. The Apostles were mere messengers "After all, who is Apollos? Who is Paul? We are only God’s servants through whom you believed the Good News. Each of us did the work the Lord gave us. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. The only "work" that was Paul's (which was not for salvation) was to give the good news, but it was God, and only God, who created the change.

User:RobSmith

Roman Catholic doctrine denies salvation by grace. In fact, it denies salvation completely. In Roman Catholic doctrine salvation is unattainable in the flesh. Roman Catholic doctrine claims eternal life begins only after death of the flesh. Roman Catholic doctrine teaches all humankind face judgement after death of the flesh. All this is unbiblical. Jesus said,

  • Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

All translations are in the present tense.[6]

Roman Catholic doctrine cannot distinguish between spiritual death and spiritual birth, neither can it distinguish between life in the flesh and life in the spirit. Conservapedia Christianity#Salvation says, "Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church, use the phrase born again as a synonym for baptized"; baptism is not repentance. Repentance comes before being born in the spirit or spiritual birth.

Yes, if you do both those things, you have eternal life because you have the means and the motive to get it! VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 20:52, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Bible teaching is very simple:

  • Born once, die twice.
  • Born twice, die once.

Roman Catholic doctrine, for all its bulk and contradictions, and hijacking of God's sovereignty, avoids this simple truth of God. It keeps adherents walking in the ways of death with no hope of salvation in this life. And it openly mocks preachers of the good news of the Gospel of Grace and Salvation. This is what converting 2,000 years of the traditions of men, and the sinful, rebellious nature of man into the gospel has wrought. If all the claims that the Roman Catholic church is the body of Christ and Christ himself were true, we'd be living in the millennial reign of Christ now. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 10:03, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

Spiritual life

Roman Catholic doctrine on spiritual life or the life of the believer is unbiblical. Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that spiritual life is attainable in this life (life in the flesh) through a series of works called sacraments. Roman Catholic doctrine teaches that spiritual life is always something to strive for, whereas God's mercy and grace is ever abounding and always accessible. It is a free gift available without price. Roman Catholic doctrine hinders our access to this grace by requiring us to go through a mediator other than Christ.

The Bible teaches that God is always faithful,

  • 2 Timothy 2:13 - if we are faithless, he remains faithful— for he cannot deny himself.

The Bible teaches that God's grace and mercy is ever abounding [7]

  • 1 Timothy 1:13b-16 - I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, 14 and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost. 16 But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life.[8]
  • Romans 5:6 - Christ died for the ungodly
  • Romans 5:1-2 - justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand [9]

The Bible teaches that brokenness (and/or repentance) makes God's salvation and grace accessible.

  • Psalm 34:18 - The LORD is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit.
  • Psalm 51:17 - The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

We must be broken in our pride.

The Roman Catholic church itself is not broken in its pride. It has lifted itself up against God, replacing Christ with Peter, replacing the Rock with the church, replacing God with man, worshiping and serving the creature (as Lucifer did) more than the Creator. It has exalted itself above the most High: I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.[10] Roman church apologists defend this self glorification many ways. See for example the claim that the Roman church exclusively is the "Savior of the World": The Body of Christ, the Savior of the world. Other examples abound.[11] The Church is not our Savior. Jesus is our Savior.

Response to Dataclarifier

Dataclarifier posts a summary of his argument above:

So, yes, the gospel of entering into his rest was preached to us as well as to Israel in the wilderness with the warning to not be disobedient. But the fullness of the gospel was also hidden for ages, and Israel in the wilderness did not see what the disciples of Christ saw, nor did they hear what the disciples of Christ heard, for many prophets and kings desired to see and hear it but did not, because it was not yet revealed. Hebrews says plainly that although all these were well-attested by their faith, they did not receive what was promised. The promise had to wait for its fulfillment in the preaching of Christ through the Church the message hidden for ages, which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, which they had not heard nor seen. What was preached to Israel in the wilderness was not the whole plan of salvation, but the promise of the good news of entering into the rest of God, which was preached to us as well as to them.
This is the understanding and interpretation of the Catholic Church. It is not the same understanding or interpretation of those who profess a gospel of grace that needs no works and does not require living a holy life after being justified, but simply salvation by faith alone once and forever without any need afterward of any struggle for perseverance in faith and good works of any kind whatsoever. That in a nutshell is the controversy at the core of the Debate...

We probably can agree that there is only one gospel, and this gospel preaches a promise of entering into his (God's) rest. And this promise can be fulfilled now, in the present tense, as Jesus says,

  • whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has [present tense] eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life [is resurrected]. (John 5:4)
  • whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his [own] works (Hebrews 4:10)
  • It is finished. (John 19:30)

The disobedience Dataclarifier emphasizes is spelled out in the same chapter - not mixing the word that was preached with faith. Disobedience = lack of faith. It is not our works that brings us salvation. Dataclarifier unwittingly is making the argument for sola fide. If one were to replace everywhere in Dataclarifier's posting obedience = faith in God, and disobedience or unbelief = lack of faith,[12] we see the entire meaning of those passages from Hebrews (incidentally, it has nothing to do with baptism or our works to enter in His rest. Now we open the door to the meaning of Romans 12:3, measure of faith , which would require its own Debate page).

Dataclarifer quickly takes Ephesian 3:7-12, which is what Paul calls an exhortation (exhortations differ from commandments, and are by definition not commandments), and turns the Gospel of Grace into a gospel of condemnation, leaving out the entire context of what Paul is preaching in Ephesians chapter 3 - the revelation of the Gentile church which was not prophesied in the Old Testament. (I suspect this is related to the contention Dataclarifier posted in many mainspaces of "the mythical Jesus invented by Paul"[13]).

Paul revealed in this passage from Ephesians chapter 3 beginning at verse 6 That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs which Dataclarifier conveniently leaves out, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles....that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known.... Simply stated, the revelation of the Gentile church is not a gospel of condemnation. Roman Catholic doctrine essentially is a restatement of ye must be circumcized, debated among church elders beginning at Act 15:24 and other places throughout the New Testament,[14] and dismissed by the same.

Time and again we see that the scholarship that Dataclarifier relies on to preach the gospel of the Roman Catholic church is written by sinful men, and not based upon the Word of God. And Dataclarifier goes out of his way to emphasize this point. The Magisterium is the work of sinful men, and is not the inspired teaching of the Holy Spirit. The Magisterium rejects the inspired Word of God and replaces it with the works of sinful men.

Scholarship, i.e. the wisdom of men, has for 2,000 years - 5,700 years if you want to go back to Moses, attempted to defeat the word of God and the message from God that you must put aside your pride and humble yourself, in an effort to justify hanging onto one's selfish will and sin, i.e. pride.

User:VargasMilan

I'm going to regret this, I know, but maybe the presence of SHobson will serve as a buffer to prevent attacks.

Abounding grace but "sufficient for thee?"

This question was introduced by the Catholics before 1300, but this is the subject of the very amphiboly that I pointed out that XavierNishant slipped in that he called an essential of the Church. If one of the "gang of four" introduced the subject of this debate, or one of their confederates, they are undoubtedly continuing this line of attack. As far as I'm concerned they should repent of this deception before anyone proceeds further along this line of argument. But some people won't listen.

A Church Doctor said we can know we have "sufficient grace" by a special revelation. "God by a special privilege reveals this at times to some, in order that the joy of safety may begin in them even in this life, and that they may carry on toilsome works with greater trust and greater energy, and may bear the evils of this present life, as when it was said to Paul (2 Cor. 12:9): "My grace is sufficient for thee."

But the Psalmist fears hidden sins that make other assurances of grace less perfect:

Who can understand sins? From my secret ones cleanse me, O Lord, and from those of others spare Thy servant.—Psalm 18:13

VargasMilan (talk) Wednesday, 19:55, 12 August 2020 (EDT)

Not even Paul was absolutely sure of his salvation. He struggled to do so, to make his salvation sure. Philippians 3:12-14.
And Peter said to be even more zealous to confirm our calling and election. Being zealous requires making every effort, living lives of holiness and godliness. 2 Peter 1:3-11 and 3:11-12
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:51, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:11-13 Shobson20 (talk) 23:58, 12 August 2020 (EDT)
The Bible itself says that it is possible to fall away and forfeit eternal life. Opposing arguments. --Dataclarifier (talk) 00:08, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
[24] [25] [26] Shobson20 (talk) 00:44, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Those who believe in the name of the Son of God know that they have eternal life. Even believers in the name of the Son of God can fall away from eternal life and "forfeit their security" if they turn away from him by willingly turning back to their former practices of serious sin, or deny him in order to save their lives—Opposing arguments. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:37, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
So, would you agree those souls condemned to hell for eternity do not have "eternal life", and that "eternal life" is synonymous with "salvation"? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 14:13, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
The grace of salvation through the precious blood of Christ alone is the sacramental doctrine of the Catholic Church. There is only one body of one Christ by one Spirit sent by the Father as one source of salvation (1 Corinthians 12:4-30; 1 John 4:13-14; John 20:21-23). Christ Jesus through his Church saves souls.
In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what common Tradition of the East and the West calls "the sacramental economy"; this is the communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits of Christ's Paschal mystery in the celebration theof the Church's "sacramental" liturgy.
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
The "communication (or "dispensation") of the fruits is the imparting of grace from Christ alone. The priest absolving in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is a member of His body and therefore is not separate or apart from the one mediator and Savior Jesus Christ dwelling in him by the power of his sacraments as his ordained minister and channel of his Almighty Spirit. It is he in his body forgiving, interceding, mediating, saving, absolving, forgiving, praying, through the members of his body (all the baptized). But not all members of his body have the same ministry. Together they are one body one Christ one Savior. This is explained in detail from the sacred scriptures in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:13, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
Christ the rock and living stone is in Peter the rock and all twelve foundations of the church and all the living stones united together in him as one Savior of the world. It is Christ who baptizes and forgives. He is the church. Whoever persecutes the church persecutes Christ Himself. Acts 9:4-5. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:20, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
Read Ephesians 4:4-16, especially Ephesians 2:10 and Philippians 2:13
4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all.
7 But each of us was given grace according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said,
“When he ascended on high he made captivity itself a captive;
he gave gifts to his people.”
11 The gifts he gave were that some would be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, 12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until all of us come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to maturity, to the measure of the full stature of Christ. 14 We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine, by people’s trickery, by their craftiness in deceitful scheming. 15 But speaking the truth in love, we must grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every ligament with which it is equipped, as each part is working properly, promotes the body’s growth in building itself up in love.
10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
The sacraments are the work of God, not man. He acts through the sacraments.
Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, "until he comes." In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments
— http://scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s1.htm (boldface added)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:08, 13 August 2020 (EDT)----
That's a great answer to a question that nobody asked. Let me ask it again: Would you agree those souls condemned to hell for eternity do not have "eternal life", and that "eternal life" is synonymous with "salvation"?
Let's expound on the meaning of this: condemned sinners in hell certainly have eternal consciousness, but do they have eternal life? What exactly does the Bible mean by "eternal life"? What does John 1:4 mean, In him was life? What does the Bible mean by "life"? Are those without Christ dead? What is the difference between "life in the flesh" and "life in the spirit"? How do I obtain this spiritual life? RobSTrump 2Q2Q 20:06, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives the truthful answers to each of those questions, and more, straight from the Bible itself on almost every page. Answers including the consistent understanding of the Christian traditional interpretation of the Bible in the life of the church regarding those same questions from the first century to the present day are there to read. Go study it with a Bible ready at hand and read for yourself each scriptural reference cited.
The church is the body of Christ himself living and working in her, in the members of his body united to him as the one Savior of the world, the bride of the Lamb he purchased for himself with his own blood and sanctified by the washing of water with the word that she might be holy, the household of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the church that Christ Jesus himself the chief cornerstone and Son of God built himself on the rock of Peter as he said he would, built by him on the twelve foundations of the new Jerusalem having on them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, built by him on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, built of living stones into a spiritual house to offer spiritual sacrifices, the temple of God in the Holy Spirit, with us forever, leading into all truth, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, so that what she teaches as doctrine on those questions must be the truth. Listen to the church (Matthew 18:17-18). Hear what the Holy Spirit says to the churches (Revelation 2:7,11,17,29; 3:6,13,22). His yoke is easy and his burden is light, and your soul will find rest.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 01:03, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
I remember the saying from my childhood, that Christianity at its heart is one beggar telling another starving beggar where to get good food. I found the banquet of the fullness of the full Gospel of biblical Christianity in the Catholic Church. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:11, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
I want to point out that Protestant pastors who preach the word are never accused by their congregations and members of adding to the word of God. Their whole purpose is to explain what it means more fully, and without error. That is their prayer. Sadly, some of them are accused of misinterpreting the Bible, which they deny. Preaching is not adding to the word. It is intended to serve the word of God and make it clear. The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not an addition to the word of God. It is the preaching of the Catholic Church, intended to serve the word of God and make its meaning clear. Its purpose is the same. The doctrine of the Catholic Church regarding the authority of the Bible has been grossly misrepresented. The actual teaching can be found at this link The Transmission of Divine Revelation. You can read it for yourself. --Dataclarifier (talk) 03:15, 14 August 2020 (EDT)
Look, I just want to buy a bag of candy, not the whole store. I'll take my business elsewhere if you can't answer a simple question about the bible. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 09:43, 14 August 2020 (EDT)

User Conservative

True faith/grace produces good works and a holy/righteous life.

The Merriam-Webster dictionary definies grace as: "unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification".[27]

If the Catholic Church were abounding in divine regeneration they would not be so deeply mired in corruption and scandal. True faith/grace produces good works and a holy/righteous life.

In the Epistle of James, James says in James 2: 18-26 (ESV):

"But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead."

The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits

"Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach," 1 Timothy 3:2 Shobson20 (talk)) 19:05, 13 August 2020 (EDT)
"So, the Pope is perfect and has to be chosen by perfect men. That’s impossible, obviously. I would say this, that the papacy is the biggest hoax ever foisted on the world. The biggest hoax ever. Popes who were fornicators and bribers and murderers, and some who were good men in a human sense, dot the landscape of this history and make it impossible to see in it the work of God or any apostolic succession." -John MacArthur Shobson20 (talk) 19:06, 13 August 2020 (EDT)

Specifically, Jesus said: "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them." (Matthew 7:15-20)

Religious scholars generally separate Christianity into 3 main branches: Catholicism, Protestantism and Eastern Orthodox.

Reformation writers Martin Luther, John Calvin, and John Knox taught that the Catholic Church was the Whore of Babylon mentioned in the Book of Revelation. Identification of the Pope as the Antichrist was written into Protestant creeds such as the Westminster Confession of 1646.

In the last 60 years, the corruptness of the Catholic Church has gone to a whole, new stratospheric level (For example, it has had many pedophile and homosexual priests and there have been many Vatican bank/financial scandals).

There are major problems as far as homosexuality, pedophilia and Vatican bank/financial scandals within the Catholic Church.

"The report released Thursday by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said the 2019 report — which covered July 2018 through June 2019 — counted 4,434 allegations of clergy sex abuse against minors." [28]

  • A global look at the Catholic Church’s sex abuse problem [29] Associated Press, 2019

Homosexual clergy problem within the Catholic Church: The staunch, Catholic Michael Voris indicates there is a major problem with there being many homosexual priests in the Catholic priesthood, Western Catholic hierarchy and in the Vatican: The Vortex — The Homosexual Papacy?

The Catholic church is a corrupt joke. Its corruptness is long-standing, but in the last 60 years its corruptness has gone to a whole new stratospheric level (Sexual abuse victims report their abuse many years after the fact typically).

There is no pandemic of pedophilia in conservative, Bible-believing, Protestant churches (I am not referring to liberal Protestant churches which I consider heretical because they often reject the authority/inerrancy of the Bible and promote unbiblical practices such as as homosexuality). I have been going to conservative, Bible-believing, Protestant churches for years and I am not aware of any such pandemic either locally (in the various geographic areas I have lived in), nationally or globally. On the other hand, the Catholic diocese in my city has declared bankruptcy due to all the sexual abuse cases lodged against it.

There is also no pandemic of homosexuality in conservative, Protestant churches.

I am not aware of any pandemic of pedophilia in Eastern Orthodox Churches. According to Newsweek: "But the Orthodox Church has not experienced as many scandals as its Roman Catholic counterpart, which has been the frequent target of protests by activist groups advocating for victims of sexual assault. Unlike Catholic priests, Orthodox priests are allowed to be married." [30]

Roman Catholic Church, Homosexuality and pederasty

Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, the American Roman Catholic bishops and the Vatican had noted a growing problem with clerical sexual abuse in the U.S.[15] In addition, Ireland and other European countries have experienced problems relating to instances of Roman Catholic priests sexually abusing children.[16]

Catholic League president Bill Donohue declared concerning the scandals of priests molesting minors:

“ The latest attempt to silence me comes from GLAAD (Gay & Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation), Call to Action and the Interfaith Alliance. The three left-wing organizations have joined hands demanding that the media "ignore Bill Donohue." Their complaint? My telling the truth about the role homosexual priests have played in the abuse scandal.

The data collected by John Jay College of Criminal Justice show that between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male and 75 percent of them were post-pubescent. In other words, three out of every four victims have been abused by homosexuals. By the way, puberty, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, begins at age 10 for boys.

No problem can be remedied without an accurate diagnosis. And any accurate diagnosis that does not finger the role that homosexuals have played in molesting minors is intellectually dishonest. The cover-up must end. And so must attempts to muzzle my voice. Everything I am saying is what most people already know, but are afraid to say it. It's time for some straight talk.[17]

”

Bill Donahue published in the New York Times: "The Times continues to editorialize about the "pedophilia crisis", when all along it's been a homosexual crisis. Eighty percent of the victims of priestly sexual abuse are male and most of them are post-pubescent. While homosexuality does not cause predatory behavior, and most gay priests are not molesters, most of the molesters have been gay."[18]

Thank God homosexuality isn't prevalent in Bible-believing, conservative, Protestant Christianity!

Good fruit of Protestantism:

See also: Protestant cultural legacies and Christianity and social stability

The atheist and Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[19]

The article The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries published in Christianity Today notes:

“ In his fifth year of graduate school, Woodberry created a statistical model that could test the connection between missionary work and the health of nations. He and a few research assistants spent two years coding data and refining their methods. They hoped to compute the lasting effect of missionaries, on average, worldwide...

One morning, in a windowless, dusty computer lab lit by fluorescent bulbs, Woodberry ran the first big test. After he finished prepping the statistical program on his computer, he clicked "Enter" and then leaned forward to read the results.

"I was shocked," says Woodberry. "It was like an atomic bomb. The impact of missions on global democracy was huge. I kept adding variables to the model—factors that people had been studying and writing about for the past 40 years—and they all got wiped out. It was amazing. I knew, then, I was on to something really important."

Woodberry already had historical proof that missionaries had educated women and the poor, promoted widespread printing, led nationalist movements that empowered ordinary citizens, and fueled other key elements of democracy. Now the statistics were backing it up: Missionaries weren't just part of the picture. They were central to it...

Areas where Protestant missionaries had a significant presence in the past are on average more economically developed today, with comparatively better health, lower infant mortality, lower corruption, greater literacy, higher educational attainment (especially for women), and more robust membership in nongovernmental associations.

In short: Want a blossoming democracy today? The solution is simple—if you have a time machine: Send a 19th-century missionary."[20]

”

The atheist and Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[21] See also: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

Protestantism vs. Catholicism and political corruption (Widespread political corruption in Catholic countries):

The Eurozone financial crisis was primarily caused by the spendthrift PIGS countries (Portugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece, and Spain).[31]

4 out of the 5 of the PIGS countries are Catholic. None of them were Protestant. Greece is Eastern Orthodox.

In summary, I will repeat the words of the Protestant Martin Luther who launched the Protestant Reformation: "Here I stand. I can do no other."

Section summary

The Roman Catholic church does not teach a biblical doctrine of grace. Rather than grace being a free gift of God, the Roman church teaches that grace is allocated by a third party mediator through absolution and then in micrograms inside communion wafers until God's grace is defeated by sin, at which point the believer must jump through hoops or perform works in order to be restored to a "state of grace" to qualify for being renewed into receiving a "free gift".

The Roman church teaches that God's grace is extremely limited, rationed by man (i.e., the church through priests), and easily overpowered by sin. It further teaches that grace must be earned or paid for. These errant doctrines are foundational to the Roman church disregarding the Gospel of Grace and Salvation, and replacing grace with the Roman church's infamous gospel of condemnation and wrath: that whosoever disregards or denies the pope and Roman curia's pretensions to power are servants of Satan, the anti-Christ, and condemned to hell. Roman Catholic doctrine is a gospel of wrath, not grace.

How do we discern between a gospel of grace and a gospel of wrath?

A gospel of grace preaches, "Obey and live" (with all the exhortations and edifications to build up the spiritual life of the believer).

A gospel of wrath preaches, "Obey or die"[22] (together with all the threats, warnings, and condemnations for noncompliance).

Law vs. grace

A discussion of law versus grace leads us into a discussion of the natural or carnal mind versus the spiritual mind. And an understanding of the term "disobedience" is a good place to start.

To the natural man and carnal mind, "disobedience" means failure to abide by law keeping, such as smoking in the boys room or having an affair; to the spiritual man, i.e. those born of the spirit, disobedience is a failure to trust God. Those who do not believe or trust what God says in his Bible are the disobedient. Replacing the Bible with doctrines of men is disobedience. Lack of faith is disobedience. This leads us back to Romans 12:3:

  • For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.

Each of us are given a measure of faith,[23] like the parable of talents, to begin with. It is what we do with that measure of faith that matters. Romans 12:3 again is an example of an exhortation and a warning against pride (original sin), not to think of himself more highly than he ought. For these subjects I suspect we need two more Debate pages, one on law v. grace and another on what is meant by a measure of faith. But in sum, I don't think the case for a Roman Catholic doctrine of grace has been made on this page. While the catechism covers this subject in a confused manner, it should be fairly obvious to the casual reader that the Roman Catholic church plays down or does not emphasize God's grace at all, choosing instead to emphasize law, wrath, and condemnation. RobSTrump 2Q2Q 15:37, 21 August 2020 (EDT)

See also

References

  1. ↑ Jew and Gentile
  2. ↑ "the holy places" = Holy of Holies where once only the High Priest could enter, and at that, only once a year on Yom Kippur or Day of Atonement. The Christian believer can enter into the presence of the Father through our one mediator and Advocate, Jesus Christ. See also Matt. 27:51: the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom at the moment of Christ's death on the cross giving us access to the Father beyond the veil.
  3. ↑ https://sermonwriter.com/bittpsblical-commentary/john-651-58/ John 6:51-58 Biblical Commentary (Bible study) John 6:51-58
    http://shamelesspopery.com/what-if-the-protestant-interpretation-of-john-6-is-correct/ What if the Protestant Interpretation of John 6 is Correct?
  4. ↑ https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm
  5. ↑ The idea that a believer still needs a third party mediator, in this case an ordained Roman Catholic priest to "grant absolution", destroys the confidence we have access to the Father. See Eph. 3:12 - In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
  6. ↑ https://biblehub.com/john/5-24.htm
  7. ↑ Except in the cases of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
  8. ↑ Paul is giving a personal testimony.
  9. ↑ See also Ex. 33:21 - Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
  10. ↑ Isaiah 14:13-14.
  11. ↑ "The Church cannot save" is not in the Bible; "Baptism does not save" is not in the Bible; "Born again by faith" is not in the Bible
  12. ↑ Expounding further on this disobedience: So what exactly is this disobedience? We've seen that it is not mixing the word of God with faith. This disobedience is not trusting God, basically calling God a liar. It is idolatry, the 1st Commandment. Replacing God with something else, usually self, leaning on your own understanding (Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding - Proverbs 3:5) or man's wisdom (the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe - 1 Corinthians 1:21 and 1 Corinthian 2:13 - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.) The Magisterium is basically idolatry, replacing the Word of God with the words which man's wisdom teaches. This is disobedience which hinders man from grace and salvation, and brings man under law, condemnation, and wrath.
  13. ↑ https://www.conservapedia.com/Talk:Salvation#Wow
  14. ↑ Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
  15. ↑ https://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26940
  16. ↑ http://www.daily49er.com/opinion/our-view-catholic-church-needs-administrative-reform-1.2200659
  17. ↑ ATTEMPTS TO CENSOR DONOHUE FAIL.April 1, 2010 by Bill
  18. ↑ https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/31/bill-donohue-catholic-sex_n_520187.html
  19. ↑ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  20. ↑ Christianity Today, The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries, January 8, 2014
  21. ↑ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  22. ↑ spiritual death, although Roman church doctrine never really teaches what spiritual life and spiritual death are.
  23. ↑ See Romans 1:19 - For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
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