Talk:National debt of the United States
Contents
Quote by President Reagan
I don't quite know of the wording to use in the section on the debt ceiling, but I think something needs to be added to contextualize President Reagan's quote; specifically, it needs to be clear that the debt ceiling and the national debt were both much lower during this term than now, even when adjusting for inflation. As the article stands now, there is a statement that the Tea Party and financial experts aren't worried about a default immediately juxtaposed with one of Reagan appearing to contradict that statement. I don't believe there is a contradiction, since the situation was so different then compared to now. Does anyone have any ideas on how to make this clear? Sadly, my writing abilities are failing me at the moment. Thank you! Kevin Davis Talk 21:33, 12 September 2011 (EDT)
- OK, so are you saying that there is no contradiction because the possibility of a default is somehow lower now that the debt ceiling and national debt are much larger? If this is true, perhaps it should be explained immediately after the Reagan quote. --AaronT 17:36, 18 September 2011 (EDT)
Removal of link
In 2007 Mtur added a link to a website I think called Zfacts. He was later blocked indefinitely. The article he linked to is critical of deficit spending and blames Republican leaders for engaging in it.
But neither of these facts is the reason I am removing the link. I'm removing it because when the author of the webpage does compare Democratic and Republican deficit spending, he doesn't mention the essential purposes for which deficit spending was performed, i. e. Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush fighting the Cold War; George W. Bush fighting the war against terrorism. These wars provided security to later generations, a security which these generations would or will not need to put their lives at risk to enjoy. It seems fair that they should shoulder some of the financial burden.
I feel this ignorance in distinguishing between debts for essential and non-essential purposes before attacking their accumulation disqualifies the author of the website from providing an opinion about the United States economy. VargasMilan 14:51, 9 July 2014 (EDT)
Page title
Shouldn't this page be titled "United States National Debt"? That's what it is about. It doesn't define or describe the general concept of national debt. JohnWe 19:45, 2 September 2014 (EDT)
Revising population estimates
From Intercensal Estimates of the United States Resident Population plus Armed Forces Overseas by Age and Sex: Apr. 1, 1990-Apr. 1, 2000.
Oct. 1, 1994: 264,301,370 (line 5569)
Oct. 1, 1995: 267,455,751 (line 6806)
Oct. 1, 1996: 270,581,435 (line 8043)
Oct. 1, 1997: 273,852,326 (line 9280)
Oct. 1, 1998: 277,003,409 (line 10517)
Oct. 1, 1999: 280,203,284 (line 11754)
From Monthly Intercensal Resident Population Estimates for the United States: April 1, 2000 to July 1, 2010.
Oct. 1, 2000: 282,957,962
Oct. 1, 2001: 285,689,399
Oct. 1, 2002: 288,379,244
Oct. 1, 2003: 290,916,101
Oct. 1, 2004: 293,573,356
Oct. 1, 2005: 296,306,871
Oct. 1, 2006: 299,159,981
Oct. 1, 2007: 302,026,271
Oct. 1, 2008: 304,858,602
Oct. 1, 2009: 307,518,237
St. Louis Federal Reserve source includes Armed forces in population after April 1, 2000. But where the Census Bureau published this is unknown.
The exact data I used pre-April 1, 2000 from the U.S. Census Population Clock did not include the Armed Forces population abroad. I intend to revise the population figures using the St. Louis Federal Reserve data which matches the resident + armed forces U.S. Census data set to which I linked, and which, guesstimating from the difference, would logically be expected to continue that full count in its post-April 1, 2000 counts. VargasMilan 23:36, 3 December 2014 (EST)
For example, the October 1, 2000 St. Louis Federal Reserve figure is 283,201,000, which is about 243,000 different than the civilian intercensal estimate. VargasMilan 23:39, 3 December 2014 (EST)
See also list
JDano: It's clear to me that TheAmericanRedoubt meant this list as a sort of hybrid between see also items and a navigation box containing various items about a subject. The subject seems to be U. S. national debt, and the first item you pointed out as irrelevant, Obama's donor list, could be relevant to persons wishing to engage in political action in response to the enormous debt Obama has accumulated and is of secondary relevance through the primarily relevant theme he stated, government spending via crony capitalism.
And the second item you pointed out as irrelevant, The United Nations, again is of secondary relevance to the primarily relevant theme of big government, as the United Nations would be a beneficiary of the loss of national power caused by large debts.
You're clearly not a friend to these themes: first you called it clutter, then you tried to dismiss it as irrelevant, then you tried to erase its thematic structure in the name of consistency, then you expected me to "compromise" along the lines of the previous actions, on your now maintaining that it ought to be removed altogether. It doesn't look like to me you are acting on rational principles but rather on personal preferences of what ideas to which the public should not have access. VargasMilan (talk) 18:12, 6 March 2016 (EST)
- Please do not misinterpret my motives. I believe that Conservapedia can be a reliable and credible alternative to Wikipedia, even though we have adopted much of WP software and overall encyclopedia format. (I no longer edit Wikipedia and have come here to work instead so that home-schooled students may have a suitable alternative.) For Conservapedia to meet those needs, edits "must be informative, family-friendly, clean, concise, and without gossip" (Commandment 3). When we put an idea in a sentence in the main part of the article, it should have footnotes to sources where the student can verify what we are saying. If an article is reasonable well-written, the ideas and sentences will flow within an overall context. A "See also" list is not the place to add unrelated ideas. According to the Style Manual, "The See also section consists of a bullet list of article names without pipes. Only one article name should appear on each line. Only articles that are directly relevant to the topic of the article should be included on the See also list." However, by including Obama donor list on the see also list rather than in the text above promises the reader that if they click on the link they will find relevant information. The donor list article is only two sentences long and the relationship to the US National Debt is not obvious to the reader.
- So, I would not object to someone adding a paragraph (with proper sources) explaining that Obama donors lead to excess federal spending. (Although other sources would explain that donors to Appropriations Committee Chairmen also lead to excess federal spending.) But having a link to the two sentence donor list article without any explanation leaves the reader confused.
- The only theme that bothers me is that bankers are Jews and gangsters. That is name-calling and gossip. So, I have been working on removing that theme from a number of articles, which lead me to this one.
- I respect the amount of work that you have put into this article. Let's not allow its credibility to be diminished by someone copying and pasting the same, ill-formatted "see also" list into a large number of articles. That is just a lazy alternative to writing new material. Thanks, JDano (talk) 11:26, 10 March 2016 (EST)
Foreign debt
So from 1977 to 1993, a period of economic turmoil under 3 presidents of both parties, the percentage of US debt held by foreigners held steady at 14%. In the Clinton's eight years, a period of relative prosperity and growth in which they brag the Federal budget was balanced for one year, the percentage of US treasury debt owed to foreigners increased to 17%, a relatively large increase over a short span of time when borrowing should not have been necessary. Why is this? RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 18:15, 28 February 2017 (EST)
- Edit conflict: Perhaps the stability of the U.S. economy during the Clinton administration encouraged more foreign countries to invest in U.S. Treasury securities OR the surpluses of these foreign nations who shared in the same worldwide prosperity as the U.S. called for a type of security backed up by a large and stable governing body to keep the windfall in. VargasMilan (talk) 01:59, 1 March 2017 (EST)
- You really do need a section on Foreign debt. No longer does FDR's axiom hold true, to not worry about the national debt because "we owe it to ourselves". (What he really meant was the US Treasury owed it to Wall Street). Now China has become a significant financier of the US Government's daily operations, maintaining its ability to send out Social Security Retirement and Disability checks to buy Chinese-made junk at Wal Mart and support the Chinese economy. But how will it ever be repaid, if the only jobs this stimulus supplies is Wal-Mart shelf stockers of Chinese imports rather than manufactures of US goods (this essentially, is the Obama economy in a nutshell), and what is the consequence of defaulting on a foreign debt? RobSCIA vs Trump. Who's gonna win? 01:20, 1 March 2017 (EST)
- Trump promised yesterday evening to do something about unfair trade practices that restrict U.S. exports. He told a story about a worker at Harley-Davidson motorcycle where the worker said that they couldn't go into business in certain countries because of high import taxes. The worker mentioned that his company's motorcycles had as large as a 100% import tax. VargasMilan (talk) 02:38, 1 March 2017 (EST)
The same question, again
I'm going to raise the same question posed above since it appears more relevant than ever. the Coronavirus is restructuring the global economy as we speak.
- what is the consequence of defaulting on a foreign debt?
In 2009, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's first job was to turn to the CCP to ask them to finance the Obama Stimulus package and Obamacare takeover to recover from the 2008 Financial Crisis. That option, getting the Chinese Communists to buy U.S. Treasury bonds and T-bills to bailout the US economy now is off the table so long as the CCP continues its grip on China.
Again, what is the consequence of defaulting on a foreign debt? As of this moment, it appears to be a wash. The CCP will never pay the $6 Trillion in damages it owes to the global community for criminal negligence and crimes against humanity related to the CCP global pandemic, and the U.S. will not settle up its foreign debt to the CCP. It's a wash. But these scenarios typically in the past have led to wars, violence and bloodshed in the interim. RobSLive Free or Die 18:17, 22 April 2020 (EDT)
You may need a good working definition of "Share of total debt accrued" such as "Share of total debt accrued in 2020 dollars" or "Share of total debt accrued in 2020 constant dollars". The percentage figure has to be measured against the monetary base, and the U.S. is no longer on a gold standard.
As presented, the figures argue for example that Jim Wright held debt expansion to only 2.5% of GDP as measured against the 1989 monetary base. This can be misleading. Paul Ryan's "accrued debt" will shrink to 2.5% at some point in two or three decades after the Federal Reserve Board doubles or quadruples its balance sheet, as seems to be the habit, every ten years or so (2001 after the 9/11 attacks, 2008 after the financial crisis, 2020 after the CCP pandemic. Since leaving the Gold Standard, this has become the habit for meeting crisis: 1933 Banking Crisis; 1941 WWII; 1949 Cold War; 1964 Gulf of Tonkin; 1974 Oil crunch; 1979 oil crunch, recession and international crisis; 1982 recession and defense build-up; 1987 stock market crash; etc. etc. etc.) You need some explanation for context.
For context of "accrued debt" you need something like "constant 2020 dollars".
A truly more accurate rendering would be to present national debt as a percentage of GDP for each Speakership time era in question, but this chart, in the true partisan Keynesian liberal Democrat tradition, papers over relevant data to show a long term declining balance based on assumptions that are never really fully argued or presented. And it somewhat deceptively uses a constant dollar gold standard to make an argument or present evidence. Yes, I know, we're now into monetary theory, but something like "2020 constant dollars" should resolve the problem. RobSLive Free or Die 17:58, 22 April 2020 (EDT)
A note on monetary theory: because of the flexibility of the monetary base since leaving the gold standard in 1933, arguments such as "President X piled on more debt than every president before him" are meaningless and bogus. Every president has piled on more debt than every president before him. It's the only way they can institute any of their programs, fulfill any of their promises, or for that matter, keep the government operating. RobSLive Free or Die 19:38, 22 April 2020 (EDT)
