Talk:Public school culture

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Where are you getting this information from? I am in public school and do not fit into ANY of those categories... AndrasK: 22:26 April 27 (EDT)

Same here. --transResident Transfanform! 22:27, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

I can usually recognize someone as being from public school by (i) his or her fashion, (ii) his or her demeanor, and (iii) his or her outlook as conveyed by body language. Sometimes I need them to say something, and that reveals the remainder. I'm not kidding. The culture is pronounced.--Aschlafly 22:35, 27 April 2008 (EDT)

Your experiences justify making enormous generalizations? AndrasK: 22:37 April 27 (EDT)

It's a culture. Objective observations can be made about cultures. Are you trying to censor that?--Aschlafly 22:38, 27 April 2008 (EDT)
Ok first of all, stop accusing me of trying to censor anything just because I am pointing out flaws in your Modus Operandi. And that is one example of high school culture. There are other aspects of high school culture, and I will add them to the article. AndrasK: 22:41 April 27 (EDT)

I dont think what you describe is 'Public school culture' andy. It is just modern fashion, popular music taste expressed through fashion etc. jeez, 40 years ago you could say so called 'public school culture' was long hair and bell bottoms. What you describe is modern culture. It is apart from schooling. Unless you're homeschooled and dont associate with modern culture. AdenJ 06:11, 28 April 2008 (EDT)

Eye contact

My excuse for not looking someone in the eye is the same as Japanese culture: a sign of respect.

The other reason might be because they are afraid of their true selves and being "figured out" by others. Kektk 18:39, 28 April 2008 (EDT)


How are those points you removed uncultural, ASchlafly? It just looks like you removed all of the positive ones. FernoKlump 10:26, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Hmm, good point. How is joining clubs/sports along with being pro-homosexual not part of public school culture? Aren't a lot of home schoolers barred from joining clubs even though they are "enrolled" in the school? -^_^- Kektk 10:30, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
The list is not about what people can join, but what their "culture" is (such as style, views, etc.).--Aschlafly 14:38, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
OK, I re-added some and reworded so it reflects "culture" FernoKlump 18:46, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Another laughable page

Please can you tell me something? This site is supposed to be an encyclopedia, isnt it? The function of an encyclopedia is, as I understand it, to act as a reference for facts. This is just another list of things that someone doesn't like and likes to imagine describes another group.

As I understand it, part of the function of this website is to act as a learning resource and as something young people can use to research projects or homework from school. Given that pages like this keep appearing, do we honestly believe that any teacher who follows a reference to conservapedia will think that this is a site that is worth referencing in a piece of work? I can tell you, if someone I teach gave me a quote or a reference from an "encyclopedia" that contained this sort of thing, I would mark them down quite heavily. More so even than I would if they used Wikipedia, and my classes know that wikipedia is NOT a good source for referencing, but at least they TRY to have some sort of support for the claims they make on the pages.

Please, please please can we pull ourselves together and realise that lists like this are NOT encyclopedic in nature and should, at the very least, be labelled as some sort of talk or debate page. Otherwise we will drive away people looking for serious information.--KimSell 13:53, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

KimSell - you obviously know that access to opinion is often stifled in educational environments. I'm glad to see you have advised your students about referencing Wikipedia, but opinions on the actual schools they are attending - and the quality thereof - would be hard for them to find. It's important that your students understand the poor environment they are in, and so this is, indeed, an encyclopediac entry, and it should stay as is. There's enough liberal opinion out there, let's at least have some balance against it. NormanTebbitt 14:31, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
Well put, Norman. Kim, give me a lineup of students, and I can pick out the public school ones based on their appearance and, if necessary, some general conversation. That's objectively observable. It's not opinion. Let's not censor it.--Aschlafly 14:37, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
Sorry Andy, but a completely unsubstantiated claim about what you can do is NOT evidence of anything. Icould say that I can tell a Frenchman by the way his toes are, but we dont have an article called French Toes do we? No. Because it is not encyclopedic in nature.--KimSell 16:53, 29 April 2008 (EDT)
It is not a matter of denying them access to opinions. Opinions are fine. They have their place. But NOT in something that claims to be an encyclopedia. And sorry, but "soome guy on the internet says he can tell a public school student" does NOT make an article encyclopedic in nature. Open any real world encyclopedia and find me an article even slightly similar to this "article". You won't be able to do it, because real encyclopedias require something more than the opinion of some guy on the web. --KimSell 16:51, 29 April 2008 (EDT)

Reversions by ASchlafly

Could you please explain why "An emphasis on social development" should not be in the article? You have reverted it twice, and as far as I can tell you have not given any explanation. Thank you. FernoKlump 21:02, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

There is nothing about the "public school culture" that embodies "an emphasis on social development." What does that phrase have in mind? Gang initiation? Drug use? It's absurd.--Aschlafly 22:00, 2 May 2008 (EDT)
Uhh actually high school is heavily involved with social development. In highschool one learns to communicate and interact efficiently and effectively with one's peers. One learns social rules regarding limits with different types of individuals (how to interact with students vs relaxed teachers vs strict teachers vs administrators). Highschool demands the acquisition of group and team skills and the ability to work together. These are all essential parts of social development. Where you get the idea that public schools are all gangs and drugs I have no idea. In a recent anonymous survey at my highschool, only about ~30-35% admit to trying drugs, and only about 5% admit to using drugs weekly. Despite what you may think, public schools develop crucial interaction and social skills that home schooled students often lack. AndrasK 22:17, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

So factual info is now liberal bias? AdenJ 23:50, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

None of the items that you removed, Aschlafly, were non-cultural. Your edit was just a removal of all positive points. FernoKlumpLeave Death Threats Here 00:03, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

I am with you Ferno. But no good will come of it. This project is doomed as it is totally unbelievable. AdenJ 00:07, 3 May 2008 (EDT)

May I ask why you (Schalfly) decided to remove the references to interest in certain subjects? Most if not all high schools offer advanced courses (if not AP/IB courses such as my highschool). These courses allow and promote students to pursue a deeper understanding of subjects that interest them. High schools are completely about promoting education and passion regarding knowledge and learning. I know that courses at my high school certainly have built a passion for my friends and I. I, for one, English, History, Physics, and Mathematics at a much more personal level than ever before. I absolutely love mathematics and am fascinated by it. Most people I have spoken to have some subject of passion born from such courses. Just because the bullet said something positive about public schools, does not make it wrong. AndrasK 11:21, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Aschlafly, we all know you hate public school but that doesn't mean there aren't any positive points to it. Those items are indeed cultural. Being "not particularly 'public school'" is not a reason for removal because several of the negative points are not necessarily public school either. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 13:27, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Reply re: reversion

  • Having a wide range of new ideas, both positive and negative
There is very little diversity of ideas in the public school culture. For example, it's difficult to find a single public school student who even realizes that classroom prayer has been censored, let alone oppose the censorship.
  • Involvement in various sports events and other participation
No more than any other student culture. On a percentage basis, actually, probably less.
  • Membership to social groups such as chess clubs or more important groups such as school council or editing a student newspaper which helps social development
  • Genuine interest in math, literature, science, history, etc.
This is absurd. An alarming percentage of public school students drop out. Public schools even have rules against taking courses above grade level.--Aschlafly 13:41, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Where did you get that last little tidbit of information (above grade level restrictions). As I said prior, every school I have ever seen, heard of, or interacted with had advanced courses. In middle school I was placed on a 2 year advanced mathematics track, doing Algebra I (a freshman highschool course) at 7th grade. As a Junior, I have just completed two semesters of College level calculus in less than a semester and a half. It is not just my school, almost all schools offer Advanced Placement courses of some form. Some do not offer as many as others due to budget, faculty, and interest limitations, but nearly all do offer some form of it. As to the involvement aspect, do you have any statistics to justify your statements? High schools offer a wide variety of sports (at many different levels from intramural to Varsity) as well as clubs (subject based clubs, service clubs, political clubs, academic teams, and yes, religious clubs). As the wide range of new ideas, high school classrooms are often a place of debate. I know that in my classroom we have debated regarding thousands of subjects, and new, never before heard ideas to most of the class came up. I don't know where you get the idea that highschool is some form of brain washing, it is more the encouragement of intellectual pursuit. (As to the classroom prayer, students are 100% allowed to pray as they so desire, and form prayer clubs (we have one). The school simple cannot force a child to pray or allow a child to force another child to pray. This is protecting all religions and all individuals 1st amendment rights. If a muslim teacher tried to force your child to pray to Allah, would you oppose it?)
AndrasK 14:00, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
As to classroom prayer, if a group of students attempt to pray together at the beginning of the class, then they would be censored and probably disciplined. At one school last year, the valedictorian was thanking God (or Jesus) during her own speech and the school officials turned off the microphone. So either you're in liberal denial or your clueless about this.
As to your other points, public school students are generally not allowed to take courses above grade level. There are some AP courses available to high school students at various grades, but that does not contradict the general rule as stated. Also, activity participation by public school students is probably less than average by teenagers. Finally, you omitted the main point: an alarming percentage of public school students simply drop out.--Aschlafly 14:13, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Oh? What is this alarming percentage? IndianaJ 14:30, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
There will of course be extreme examples of any ideology (just as there are examples of censorship of liberal ideas in some highschools) but on the average your statement does not hold true. And to quote you "Also, activity participation by public school students is probably less than average by teenagers." You even used the word probably! You are just making pure assumptions in order to make something fit your view. You hold no credibility until you show any reputable statistics (aka not from but any accredited scientific/statistical study (APA, the Department of Education, reputable universities). As to the grade level restrictions. If schools offer honors/AP/IB curriculum and opportunities for students to take higher level courses, what exactly else do you want them to do? Show me one school that clearly states in its operational manual that students "may not take any course deemed above their grade level." Good luck. Finally, the percentage of public school drop outs. This can be cited because statistics exist regarding this group (suddenly statistics are your friend?). Public schools repeatedly undergo statistical analysis, are constantly critiqued, and this produces large amounts of information. There is a standard MO for obtaining information regarding the success of public schools because they are, on the whole, standardized. Home schoolers, however, are not regulated by the government nearly as strictly (if at all) and thus are not subject to such analysis. Statistics regarding home schooled individuals are harder to obtain and create as there is no established channel by which to create them. AndrasK 14:36, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
If a group of students attempted to pray together at the beginning of the class, they would only be censored if they were disrupting the normal flow of the class. For example, if the teacher was not about to begin teaching and the other students would be free to talk anyway, the praying would be allowed. But if the teacher was trying to teach and they began to pray out loud, disrupting the class, they would probably be asked to stop (but I would doubt that they would be disciplined without a warning). FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!!

I'll review all of the negative points

Why don't I review some of the other points?

  • a lack of commitment to respect the religious civil rights of students has resulted in "religion-free zones."

Not at my school. We are pretty tolerant to anyone's religious beliefs. Even when teaching evolution, our teachers clearly tell us that it may or may not be true and that we just have to understand it, not believe it.

But the teachers will not mention alternative theories, and they will not allow substantive criticism of the theory of evolution, such the implausibility of any evolutionary path for the whale.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • sex education, homosexual curriculum and sexual abuse by school personnel has been referred to as a "red-light district" for students

We had a brief sexual education assembly, but it mostly talked about STDs and that protection does not always work. The only time that I can remember talking about homosexuality in class was when we were learning about the civil rights movement of the 1960s. There have been no reports of sexual abuse at our school as long as I have gone there. A few years after I left my middle school a teacher was accused by a student of accessing pornography using a school computer, but they couldn't find any proof of it.

Homosexual indoctrination in public schools has grown enormously in recent years. Sex abuse by public school personnel is rampant, and a whole series of newspaper articles uncovered this.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • a culture of incompetence

I don't know what you mean by that, nor do I care

Not sure myself.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • fashion that includes black (Goth) clothing

Black is a popular color for clothing, but there are only about 3 goths at our school

"Only" 3? That's 3 more than in other cultures. And I bet far more than 3 are preferring black clothing at your school.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
I'm not entirely sure why black clothing would be cause for concern. I tend to wear black clothing on a fairly regular basis, primarily because I'm color-blind and I know black goes well with almost anything. The Pastor of my church also wears black rather frequently. --Benp 17:51, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
Obsessive black clothing is worn to signify lack of life, death, mourning, Goth culture, lack of faith, and intimidation. Other than that, I don't have a problem with it!--Aschlafly 18:23, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
Priests and nuns are well known for wearing black, and I doubt any would claim that they represent a lack of life, death, mourning, or goth culture. A black and white ball isn't about goth culture either. The Pilgrims also wore black. I wear black because its easier to do laundry - "light clothes and dark clothes". It also does a good job of not showing dirt. I believe you miss the interpretation of 'simplicity' with black. --Rutm 18:39, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

I have a story about wearing black in school: When I was a freshman in high school, several students organized a "gay pride week" at school. The point was to wear bright colors to support gay rights. Now instead of wearing rainbow colors me and my friends all got together and wore black and other dark colors for the week as a protest to the homosexual agenda . I do see where your getting at with goth culture but not everyone who wears black is part of goth culture.

facial piercings and rings, tattoos, and male earrings I don't notice many facial piercings or tattoos, but what is wrong with male earrings?

Look around more, and you'll begin to notice more. Observations, by the way, do not depend on it being wrong.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • depressed demeanors

By this I'm assuming that you mean emos, but they have almost disappeared in the last year

I can often spot a public school student just by the depressed expression on his or her face.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • an absence of objective morality; instead, a principal will say someone 'made the wrong choice'

I have never heard a teacher use that phrase.

Listen to what principals say after a kid is busted for drugs.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • a sense of hopelessness

I'm not sure what is meant by that, but I haven't encountered anything of the sort

Maybe you don't notice it.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • a lack of critical thinking about liberal indoctrination

Totally wrong. My physics teacher (and most of the science teachers) doesn't believe global warming is caused by humans, and is disgusted at the lack of opposition to it in the science world.

That's good, and I'm impressed. But does your physics teacher describe where modern scientific theories have been proven wrong, such as the Origin of the Moon or the Piltdown Man?--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
My physics teacher hasn't mentioned that, but my biology teacher talked about the origins of the moon theory once. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:34, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Well ... what did he say about the Origin of the Moon??? Doesn't sound like he taught he truth, or you would probably would have remembered it better.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

She explained it, but it was like 3 years ago and I don't really remember much about it. I read the article on here about it and it was essentially the same idea from what I remember. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

As I said, had she told the truth about it, you would have likely remembered. As it stands, what she said was meaningless because you don't recall it. She might as well said nothing.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • compulsive profanity

This is one that I would have to agree with.

OK, I respect your admission here.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • general inability to look someone in the eye

Maybe, but there are many reasons for that.

OK.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • extreme anxiety

Again, I'm not sure what is meant by that or what the causes would be.

Causes are confusion, deprivation of faith, and constantly being taught falsehoods.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
The only thing I can think of would be anxiety over tests or other related stress like that. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:34, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Perhaps 10% of your class is regularly taking drugs, legal and illegal, for anxiety, and it's not due to tests. Your comment seems a bit out of touch.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

There really isn't much drug use at our school, and it is pretty looked down upon. We have had a lot of education regarding this and most people stay away from it. But I guess for anxiety I am a bit out of touch because it seems like the people who have these problems don't really want to talk about it. I don't think that this is somehow caused by public school though, I think that it is just youth in general. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I'm confident there is more drug use -- legal and illegal -- than you realize at your school.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Isn't that what I just basically said? FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 20:17, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • feeling that it is funny to be dumb

I would have to agree with this one too.

OK, thanks.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • being so accustomed to censorship of ideas that there is genuine surprise when someone actually says something unfamiliar or politically incorrect

Nope, not at all

I doubt you'll hear in public school any criticism of the censorship of classroom prayer, or of the gay agenda, or of the abortion industry.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
For criticism of school prayer see below. In U.S. History we discussed the gay rights movement, and our (liberal) teacher criticized the violence of the Stonewall riots in comparison to the peaceful Civil Rights movement of Martin Luther King, but was also empathetic to the fact that gays were being arrested and subject to police brutality. Out teacher had criticized both sides of the abortion issue and has even used it to draw a comparison to the conflict over abolitionism. But I remember that he talked about people who are supposedly "pro-life", yet bomb abortion clinics. I have a hunch that he is not in favor of abortion, though, because he is very critical of the promiscuity today and has credited abortion to helping the increase of it. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:34, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Your comment does not address or rebut any of my three points.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

It does address your points because I was giving examples of how one of my teachers talked about those issues. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

No you didn't. You didn't mention (i) criticism of the censorship of classroom prayer, or (ii) of the gay agenda, or (iii) of the abortion industry. You talked about abortion, not criticism of the abortion industry.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • lack of awareness that prayer is censored in public schools and that teachers' unions are very liberal

as I said above, we know that mandatory prayer is illegal. I didn't know that the teacher's union is liberal, though.

I'm not talking about mandatory prayer. I'm talking about voluntary prayer.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Actually when I wrote that I was referring to something I had written on the top of my post, but I ended up deleting it, so it makes no sense now. We know that we are allowed to pray as long as it does not disrupt the class. Our U.S. History class debated this and we generally agreed that forced prayer violates freedom of religion. We also talked about some cases where teachers have jumped the gun and censored students while praying nondisruptively and decided that they had no right to do that. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:34, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
You're in denial. You haven't heard voluntary classroom prayer once during all your years in public school. Try it with some friends and ask to start a class with a voluntary prayer, and watch what happens. You'll be censored, if not disciplined.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Does prayer have to be out loud? There is nothing wrong with praying silently, I don't know what benefit there is from praying out loud. God still hears you the same. Again, we have the right to pray as long as it does not disrupt the class. As one of my teachers said, "As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in school". FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Your comment here reflects the public school culture well. Yes, classroom prayer is censored but, no, teachers and students won't admit it. You've never once heard a single classroom prayer in all your years in public school, and won't try to say one with your classmates now. Rather than admit it, you insist that God doesn't want it! That's the public school culture: it censors and won't admit it.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Again, why does prayer have to be spoken? Personally, I am uncomfortable praying out loud even in church. Doesn't Matthew 6:5-7 say something about this? FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 20:19, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I went to DeLand High School. I was in the Air Force JROTC Program which had a student Chaplain who opened all our military activities (such as flag decommissioning) with a non denominational prayer. My drama club also prayed before every play. Also, the Campus Crusade for Christ prayed at the flag pole every morning before school. I'm not seeing how this was censored. --IanG 14:53, 18 September 2008 (EDT)
  • alcohol and drug abuse

I believe the statistic at our school for drinking alcohol was 34%, so indeed many drink but it is still a minority. I think that it was about 5% of the students at our school that use marijuana frequently, but really nothing worse

34% is huge, and the 5% is an underestimate (or perhaps the "frequently" adjective is the trick there).--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
Alcohol is a particularly large problem at our school, but it is declining. The statistic for ever trying marijuana was much larger, but many students didn't find an appeal to it and never tried it again. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!!

  • disrespect for teachers

Again, a minority of the school is disrespectful to teachers. But at our age we all want to be 'rebels' so that kind of thing is expected

It's more in public school.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
I'm sure it is, but teachers never lose control over the classrooms, so it is not really a huge problem. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:36, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
No one said that teachers lose control over the classrooms, but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. It's demoralizing and degrading.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Disrepect against teachers is usually dealt with quickly and with punishment. I remember a kid that gave a teacher the middle finger and he got suspended for a week. They also told him that if he ever did anything like that again he would be expelled. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • bullying

Maybe a little, but nothing serious

OK.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

  • gang activity

There are absolutely no gangs at our school (or in our area). The areas with gang activity are usually going to have it everywhere, not just in schools.

Rest assured that gang activity is a huge problem in some areas. Do you live in a wealthy suburb?--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
I live in a middle-class suburb, so gang are never really a problem. My point is, though, that the gangs aren't caused by the school, gang activity just spills into it.FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:36, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
I don't think you realize what goes on in less wealthy public schools. Do you have metal detectors in your school? Many do, but it doesn't sound like yours does.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

My point is that gang activity isn't caused by public schools or somehow unique to them. Gang activity is usually caused by poverty, where parents can't afford to send their kids to private schools or have the education or time to homeschool them. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!!

I appreciate your analysis, but gangs often form in school and terrorize kids there. In some areas children are even afraid to go to public school.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

That is just a summary of my experience in the public school system. I think that it shows that a lot of the points are just presumed and don't really reflect a majority of public schoolers. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 14:33, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

I've taught many of them, and see their contrast with homeschoolers firsthand.--Aschlafly 15:05, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
My problem with this article is that it is stereotypingFernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 15:36, 4 May 2008 (EDT)
It's not stereotyping to describe a culture.--Aschlafly 16:59, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

It is, because you are describing a small minority of teenagers and implying that everyone who goes to public school is just like them. FernoKlumpLeave me a death threat!! 18:48, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

It's a culture that censors and denies it is censoring, to give just one example. It's not just a minority, but rather a large majority. Observations about culture are not stereotyping, but important to understand what happens in that culture. Much of history class is spent learning about past cultures.--Aschlafly 19:44, 4 May 2008 (EDT)

Much of my Classics classes were spent learning about the good and bad of ancient cultures. Not just focusing on some guys perception of what is good and bad. Aschlafly, other people might have made their own observations. This list is what Aschlafly thinks and anyone trying to add their own observations will have their edits reverted. Kinda hard to have a collaborate encyclopedia when no other observations are allowed but yours, is it not? AdenJ 01:06, 5 May 2008 (EDT)

Poor Homeschooler behavior

There's an exception to every rule - these three young men were homeschooled, and it doesn't seem like this is model behavior? JerryMander 18:53, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

No, that's not model behavior, I agree! I also agree that there is often an exception to correlations. But the liberal attempt to disprove correlation with a counterexample is fallacious. See point #6 in liberal logic. It's amazing how many people are fooled by that trick. Would they also conclude from seeing a 100-year-old smoker that smoking does not cause lung cancer???
And, I might add, often the counterexamples are not really as they appear. The article says the 17-year-olds are homeschooled. I wouldn't be surprised based on their conduct if they were expelled from or dropped out of public school; note that the newspaper does not say that they have always been homeschooled.--Aschlafly 19:31, 9 May 2008 (EDT)
So your point here is that an example of "bad behavior" from a public schooler indicts everyone who goes to a public school, but an incident of "bad behavior" from a homeschooler... Has no effect on anything? DannyRedful 20:57, 17 June 2008 (EDT)

Would conservatives conclude, from seeing a young singer with breast cancer, that hollywood types have more breast cancer? AdenJ 19:37, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

AdenJ, either you don't understand, or you think you'll fool others. I hope it's the former. Examples can indicate correlation. A counterexample cannot disprove it.--Aschlafly 20:04, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Social Skills

I think it is worthy of note that whereas some of the facts about public schoolers are true, in general public schoolers have much better social skills than homeschoolers. Also, don't you think it's rather unfair to list all of public schoolers' bad qualities and omit all of their good ones? PhyllisS 20:35, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

Thanks for the PhyllisS. I added a few good points which were reverted by Aschlafly including development of social skills. AdenJ 22:58, 9 May 2008 (EDT)

United States

I'm assuming that this article is about public school culture in the United States, because it certainly doesn't agree with my experience of other countries. I've added to the article to explain that. If this was a mistake please feel free to change it. Daphnea 15:22, 24 June 2008 (EDT)

Invalid Homosexuality Reference

There are two problems with the reference used to back up the assertion that public school culture is identified with homosexuality. First, the article that is referenced is about gay rights groups advocating more teaching of awareness and tolerance for homosexuality in private schools (which is a bit much, I agree). That does nothing to back up an assertion that homosexuality itself is a part of the public school culture. Second, the article is from a Canadian source and is about a Canadian-based dispute, while this article starts of by focusing its scope on the public school culture in the United States. --DinsdaleP 18:40, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Classic example of "Public school culture"

Anyone who needs an example of "public school culture" should go to our school's cross river rival Charlotte High School in Punta Gorda, Florida. The first thing you see besides the obnoxious looking tarpon (which was created by the school's cheerleading squad in the mid 90's, probably the most indecent cheerleading squad in the state giving the entire sport a terrible name) is a sign that states "Surveillance cameras in use." Over gloification of the school's athletic teams and lack of interest for academics has earned the school an impressive "D" grade from the state DOE whereas no other school in Charlotte County has ever had less than a "C" grade. Don't know about the prayer issue there, but I do know that our school (Port Charlotte in Port Charlotte, FL), which has been deemed an "A" grade school, sometimes has moments of silence, and has even had public prayers at certain events, such as the NJROTC annual inspection, being witnessed by the principal, superintendent for Charlotte County Public Schools, NJROTC Area 7 manager, many students, and over 100 parents. Charlotte HS is known for behavioral issues; Wikipedia can no longer be accessed from any CCPS school because girls at CHS could not resist vandalizing the site, and they'd probably do the same here if they were intelligent enough to find this site. I consider CHS more of a typical public school, meaning the type described here, and the type you see on the news and every TV show depicting a public school. I don't, however, believe that all public schools are like this or that all private schools are any better. I realize many people here don't like Wikipedia, but anyone that wants to see how immature this world is, public school or otherwise, should go to and look at the diffs coming from the IPs. You'll see "public school culture" at its worst, and it will come from public schools, private schools, libraries, churches, people working for corporations, small businesses, government agencies, and non-profit organizations, mobile providers and WiFi hotspots, and residential accounts. DMorris 13:43, 31 December 2009 (EST)

Positive Aspects

I just had an edit listing some positive aspects of school culture removed. It is not entirely bad, or else we'd have a LOT more sociopaths and psychopaths! Public schools grant benefits that many parts of the world do not enjoy. Things as basic as reading and writing seems commonplace now but remember that this was a rare skill just a thousand years ago. It helps provide a foundation for children to pursue their career choice whether it is science, mathematics, the arts, etc. It seems completely unfair to undermine public schools because of a difference of opinion. I say, list the negatives AND the positives and let the reader decide the value of public schools rationally. --Composer 01:20, 16 February 2010 (EST)

You are full of liberal assumptions, Composer. I reviewed and approved of DouglasA's reversal. Your edits made it seem as if someone homeschooled doesn't have the opportunity for social interaction, or learning first-hand about different cultures. Those assumptions are simply not logical and wrong. Many public schools are completely devoid of different cultures. So how does that fact jibe with your edits? Open your mind and set yourself free! --ṬK/Admin/Talk 03:05, 16 February 2010 (EST)
The language could admittingly be toned down about the positive aspects if that's the problem. There are positive aspects to public school culture and hard working teachers doing the most they can within the structure. Homeschooling benefits are given a lot of detail and a lot of attention and the case for it has been made. You seem to assume I think homeschooling is inferior to public schools. I don't. However I don't believe public schools are the source of all ills as this article makes it seem to be. I'm just suggesting some balance, nothing drastic. Keep all the negative stuff in, I'm not calling for its removal either.

--Composer 07:30, 16 February 2010 (EST)

Then perhaps the best thing is for you to keep those insights in mind before editing. We don't say all public school education is bad, just the majority of them are. I think that's a fair judgment, and have had both public (the majority of it) and home schooling, a couple of years. I didn't assume anything about your edits other than what they actually said, as that is all I had to go on. --ṬK/Admin/Talk 08:58, 16 February 2010 (EST)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks

Okay, to all of these people who insist on protesting here: please Google "The lady doth protest too much, methinks." If you have a differing opinion, okay, but stop trying to force it on Conservapedia and her editors. DMorris 15:02, 17 February 2010 (EST)

A few observations and reservations I have about the content of this article

I believe many of the claims in this article are erroneous and need correction, first because I myself have attended public schools, and because I know those who have attended public schools, and many of the claims need correction for reasons I shall state below:

  • complete censorship of any classroom prayer
    • Not entirely true. I have attended and know others who have gone to schools that allow for a "moment of silence" at the beginning of the school day when a student may quietly pray, and during eating or break periods no particular rules were ever placed on myself or others praying for their meals. I also liked to read the Bible occasionally, and the book was available (alongside other religious texts) in the school library, and while proselytizing was not encouraged, the reading of the Bible when I did not have an assignment for private enjoyment was never in conflict with school policy.
  • fashion that includes all black clothing (Goth), teens dressed like prostitutes
    • This was discouraged, at least in my school experiences. No "uniform" policy had ever been issued, but many types of indecent or gang affiliated clothes were not permissible to be worn by students, and while the exact specifics can vary between school systems, many have similar policies, especially in the more conservative school districts (which I have attended)
  • facial piercings and rings, tattoos, and male earrings
    • These were completely discouraged in my experience, again this varies between school districts, but they are usually not permitted in most public schools as a distracting or indecent fashion statement.
  • depressed demeanor (a so-called "emo" culture amongst some teens)
    • Some public schools usually have poor counseling services or can be cripplingly lax in noticing troubled students, so while I agree this can be problematic, this varies by school district.
  • an absence of objective morality; instead, a principal will say someone "made the wrong choice"
    • I disagree. Most school issue handbooks detailing their policies, and concretely immoral actions such as sex on school grounds, vandalism, arson, or other criminal mischief is dealt with as such and identified as wrong. The exact nature of how it is dealt with varies by school district, but my own experience is that there is not an abscen of objective morality.
  • a sense of hopelessness
    • I'm not sure what this refers to, seems more like an opinion with no basis in fact, though public schools do have students who may feel this way, but the school environment may not be the reason for this state of being or may not be the only determining factor.
  • a lack of critical thinking about liberal indoctrination
    • This is dependent on the school district. I had the good fortune to attend schools that had conservative values, but for the most part I found my school experience largely apolitical.
  • compulsive profanity
    • This can be problematic, despite the fact every public school usually has rules against this.
  • general inability to look someone in the eye
    • This seems like baseless opinion. I've never heard of (or attended) a public school where you were encouraged not to pay attention to the teacher (which included proper eye contact)
  • lewd behavior euphemistically referred to as "PDA" or "Public Display of Affection"
    • Every school I attended had strict rules prohibiting such displays, the exact specifics can vary from school district to school district.
  • racial discrimination resulting from set cliques of racially homogeneous students
    • Racism is generally not tolerated in every public school which I am aware, though this does little to stop the private opinions on the subject held by individual students.
  • tolerance of homosexuality due to school-supported and funded groups
    • I primarily went to schools in conservative school districts, so I never encountered this, but this could vary depending on the political slant of the school district.
  • extreme anxiety
    • Public schools are like any public situation in which stress can occur, this seems to be over generalizing.
  • feeling that it is funny to be dumb
    • This was not tolerated by the administrations of the schools I attended, and most public schools tend to punish encouraging this harshly in my experience.
  • disruptive yelling
    • This was also not tolerated in my experience, and frequently punished.
  • lack of supervision, class cutting
    • Class cutting can be a problem, but that's usually more of a case of the student choosing delinquency, and not an endemic fault of the school system itself, though some can be lax in making sure this does not occur.
  • lack of awareness that prayer is censored in public schools and that teachers' unions are very liberal
    • The first is not true in my experience, cannot speak to the matter of teacher unions, though I don't understand why most students would even care about teacher's unions.
  • smoking, alcohol and drug abuse
    • Were explicitly prohibited in my experiences, most public schools have similar policies.
  • drug testing
    • This was practiced in sports programs in the schools I have attended for legal reasons, the exact requirements may vary depending on school district
  • disrespect for teachers, taking advantage of substitute teachers
    • Generally prohibited and punished in my experience, how problematic this is may vary by school district
  • bullying, hazing, public humiliation
    • Generally prohibited and punished in my experience, how problematic this is may vary by school district
  • gang activity weapon detectors, locker searches
    • Gang activity was prohibited and suppressed in my experience, occasional locker searches were not unheard of in my experience, exact specifics vary depending on school district
  • lack of proper etiquette and manners
    • These are generally enforced via the school rules of conduct, though how well they are enforced depends on the school district
  • glorification of certain groups such as athletic teams and outcast of others
    • Public schools do tend to encourage cliquish behavior, so I can actually agree with this
  • bitter hate for rival schools and their students
    • Never encountered this in my experiences, though this may vary between school districts
  • corrupt and abusive teachers and school administrators
    • The severity of this problem varies between school districts
  • censorship of conservative sources of news and information
    • Not true in my experience (I found my own school experience was rather apolitical), but this may vary depending on the politics of the school district
  • violence and school shootings
    • Can be problematic, varies depending on the school district
  • excessive network abuse
    • Can be problematic, varies depending on the school district
  • complete lack of awareness or involvement by parents
    • This is more dependent on the parents of the students, not the school, though laxness on the school part to duly inform the parents on how their children are doing can be a problem in certain school districts.
  • rampant cheating by students
    • Generally prohibited and punished harshly in my experiences, may vary depending on school district
  • cross-dressing - in schools plays, boys wearing girl jeans, powder puff sports, etc.
    • Was not encouraged in my experience, cannot speak for all school districts, as their policies may vary
  • special concessions for certain ethnic groups and religions while Christianity is ignored
    • Completely untrue in my experiences, though this may be true in certain school districts.
  • allowing students to opt-out of saying the Pledge of Allegiance
    • This is true in my experience, and personally, I do not believe any student should be forced to say anything against their will (as it violates the First Amendment). In fact, those who did not wish to say the Pledge in my experience were given the option to remain silent.
  • pregnant students being accepted by school officials, and sometimes even pregnancy pacts
    • Generally non permitted in my experience, may vary depending on school district.
  • acceptance and sometimes even encouragement of abortion and birth control
    • Not true in my experience. While they were discussed in our school's sexual education programs, virtually all of the teachers who gave the classes admitted the only perfectly effective method of preventing STD's and pregnancy was abstinence. This may vary by school district in other cases.
  • a lack of respect for public property and other people's personal property, as seen by vandalism (e.g. defacing and/or inscribing obscenities into desks, lockers, etc.) and high rates of theft
    • Can be problematic, varies by school district, though this was not an overly large problem in my experiences.
  • disruptive pranks like false fire alarms have caused many schools to implement detection mechanisms such as surveillance cameras and tamper dyes.
    • This is, sadly, true in most cases.
  • disrespect for authority figures and high-ranking elected public officials
    • Can be problematic, depending on school district, though in my experience this is more a lack of self control on the part of the student(s) in question.

PatrickMarion 13:08, 1 January 2013 (EST)PatrickMarion

I move for this entire article to be deleted. It's nothing but an exercise in stereotyping and repeating what sensationalist headlines are out there or how television/movies portray it. I spent 13 years in public school (six schools over time) and none of them were like this. They weren't perfect and I spent them in the south east, but still this is just ridiculous. Half of these assertions are not even sourced! Is stereotyping and prejudice a conservative trait? I've heard enough liberals say it is, and it's articles like these that re-enforce it. So i suggest we get someone to delete this or at very least source all these points. --DavidS 19:11, 16 March 2013 (EDT)