Counteressay: The United States cannot pay down its national debt without taxing the rich. It has done it before
Counteressay: The United States cannot pay down its national debt without taxing the rich. It has done it before
More liberal claptrap
If every one dollar of labor performed is taxed at 15.3%, and thus 15.3 cents are added to the national debt to be paid back as Social Security payments, how by labor can the United States ever pay down its national debt? RobSGet thee behind me, Satan 11:59, November 13, 2023 (EST)
- If you take issue with this essay, I suggest creating a counteressay at: Essay: The USA cannnot reduce its national debt. It's totally impossible. Godspeed. Conservative (talk) 12:10, November 13, 2023 (EST)
- Okay, I'll take you up on that (if Andy won't delete it).
- How do you intend to pay down the national debt by labor when each hour or unit of labor adds to the national debt? RobSGet thee behind me, Satan 12:16, November 13, 2023 (EST)
Milton Friedman: Forget about "paying down" the debt - the only way to slow the growth of the national debt is by repealing the social security withholding tax.
You cannot "pay down the national debt" without repealing the Social Security withholding tax (See: Milton Friedman, Free to Choose, Appendix). This entire discussion is disingenuous without addressing that question.
Look at your paycheck stub. Look at the item called "FICA". That item, times 135,000,000 workers every minute of every day, is the main cause of national debt accumulation, more than any other cause. When you see the debt clock running, that is what it is counting - the money owed to future retirees from existing workers as their labor is performed and the money withheld from their paychecks. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 19:57, April 19, 2024 (EDT)
- Have you heard of other taxes? People pay income tax, which does not go to social security. MayGodBless (talk) 19:16, July 19, 2024 (EDT)
- FICA is a tax. Don't confuse the issue. This is simple enough that even User:Conservative should be able to understand.
- The more people work, the larger the workforce, the harder they work, the more they are paid, the more time and overtime they put in - drives the national debt. The national debt is not like credit card or mortgage debt - it cannot be paid down by labor. Labor is the biggest driving force behind the national debt. It's a structural flaw in the system. More labor = more national debt. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 20:05, July 19, 2024 (EDT)
- Then he makes the ridiculous comparison now to when the US was on a gold standard, which is like comparing apples to emu doo doo. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 20:16, July 19, 2024 (EDT)
- MGB: What's the joke here Al Gore tells with "Lockbox"? - that workers FICA withholdings wouldn't be plundered by Congress and spent on something else and will be held in a "lockbox". Anyway, there is no connection between what is withheld from workers' pay and what they receive in retirement benefits (User:Conservative & I actually discussed this issue on the phone, and he later admitted publicly that I was correct - that he would not receive payment in retirements benefits equal to what he paid in).
- The structural flaw is the way Keynesian New Dealers created the Social Security system - kicking the can of debt accumulation down the road ("In the long run, we're all dead", as Keynes said). But User:Conservative has no qualms using the same lies and deception Democrats have used for 90 years now selling the idea that the national debt can be "paid down". RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 12:56, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
- The structure of the Social Security system is like running backwards on a treadmill. The farther you run, the harder you work, the more debt gets accumulated.
- And inflation is the relief valve for the debt accumulation - how the debt gets "paid down".
- To put this Essay in a good light would be to call it pro-inflation. It is not an expression of conservative values. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 13:13, July 20, 2024 (EDT)
- Labor drives the debt, yes. But labor also drives income, which reduces the debt. On balance, increasing productivity decreases the debt. It is so simple someone even dumber than Joe Biden, such as RobSmith, could understand it. MayGodBless (talk) 23:03, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
- 15.3% of the national income is added to the debt yearly ($3.8 trillion in un-inflation adjusted 2022 dollars). To freeze debt growth, that would mean raising the Social Security tax to 30.6% of take home pay. Freezing debt growth is the first step before any "pay down" of existing debt could occur. This of course, would have an impact on the level of employment and output, which would fall. Not to mention impoverishing workers and households. All other federal spending would still have to be funded by the income tax, with fewer workers. Non-Social Security spending couldn't be fully funded without either a reduction in spending or more borrowing (i.e. increasing the debt). (Or raising federal income taxes, as User: "Conservative" proposes in the Essay, as well, further impoverishing workers).
- Labor drives the debt, yes. But labor also drives income, which reduces the debt. On balance, increasing productivity decreases the debt. It is so simple someone even dumber than Joe Biden, such as RobSmith, could understand it. MayGodBless (talk) 23:03, July 21, 2024 (EDT)
- In a supposed "democracy", I'm not certain workers & voters would consent to massive pay reductions and persistent high unemployment before any reduction in debt would occur, just to "freeze" debt growth. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 00:46, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
- Alternatively, you could try Milton Friedman's proposal to freeze debt growth: repeal the Social Security withholding tax (downsides to that proposal is another discussion). RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 00:51, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
- Now, someone might protest: Rob, doesn't that mean raising the debt by owing back to workers 30% of their lifetime earning? No. The benefits formula is not based upon how much you paid in. There is no "lockbox" were the money paid in is held in a "Trust account". (This is the discussion User: "Conservative" and I had on the phone, where he was under the false impression it was). Under this scenario the benefits formula would also have to be frozen, where 15.3% continues to accumulate to the existing workforce, offset by 15.3% to pay existing claims. All previous accumulated US Treasury debt would remain frozen, provided Congress could commit future Congresses from increasing overall spending (including defense), which basically is impossible (insert discussion on Constitutional Amendment to balance the budget here). This essentially is the way Social Security has operated since it was first introduced at 1% in 1937. The withholding has been raised incrementally to its current level. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 02:00, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
- Additionally: The Social Security Tax is Non-Deductible, meaning you pay federal taxes on you Social Security contributions which you never see. Unlike federal tax, there is no "standard deduction" or "Exemption". You pay Social Security Tax on the first dollar of income. You pay 7.65 (15.3% if self-employed or a 1099 Independent Contractor) plus your federal tax rate on top of FICA tax.
- For example, if you pay 25% federal tax, your actual rate is 7.65% + 25% = 9.56%.
I never thought social security was held in a trust account/lockbox. And if I did at one point (say as a child/teenager, etc), I was informed it did not well before I became an editor of Conservapedia.
According to a 2004 Social-Protection.org article, 30 countries partially or fully privatized their mandatory public pensions between 1981 and 2014.[1][2] The USA will probably be forced to do the same. Alternatively, it will means test social security. Old people vote at high percentages so some of the baby boomers will probably have to die out before this happens. Other belt tightening measures will have to be introduced in other areas of the federal government. The reshoring of American supply chains will be costly to American society so difficult choices will have to be made, but maybe robotization and AI will make this less costly. Something may have to be done because China has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world so reshoring could solve part of this problem (China does a lot of the world's manufacucuring compared to other countries). With that being said, the USA has a keen demographic advantage over China/Russia/Europe (See: The United States Has a Keen Demographic Edge. Competitors of the United States face plunging birthrates and social gloom.[3]
The Republicans would be wise if they moved forward with more and more school choice programs in their states so the USA labor productivity will rise and so more people/taxpayers will move to their states. A higher labor productivity would help the USA manage its national debt better. Conservative (talk) 05:40, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
- (a) You cannot "pay down" the debt without "freezing" debt growth first. The word "freeze" does not even appear in this essay, meaning you don't understand the underlying problem.
- (b) Your premise is an apples and oranges argument between the gold standard and fiat money.
- There. I've been polite and wasted more than enough precise minutes of my life with your trolling for one day already. Please stop. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 09:28, July 22, 2024 (EDT)
- Fiat money? Given that the Russian ruble has further fallen against the US dollar and that the Chinese yuan has fallen against the US dollar, you are not in a position to bring up the issue of fiat money. Conservative (talk) 22:25, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
- You are being totally unreasonable. The essay doesn't use the words "zero based budgeting" either. Just because the essay doesn't use the word "freeze", doesn't mean there is anything errant in the essay. Conservative (talk) 09:41, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
- Look, you're outside your league. You're praising Keynesianism (whom you personally regard as a pedophile) and inflation. Stick with what you know and love best, anal sex. RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 09:53, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
- Oh, you mean deficit spending can inflate GDP & GNP figures? Whowudathunkit? RobSThe Truth. Just Putin It Out There 16:32, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
- Big deficits do serve as a break to economic growth and increase economic risk of inflation/stagflation and economic recessions/depressions. At the same time, the high-income country of Japan has had big deficits for decades and its standard of living is much higher than what exists in your buddies in Russia, China, North Korea and Iran. Conservative (talk) 16:40, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
- By the way, put this in your rabid anti-Americanism pipe and smoke it: China's Massive Debt: China's debt hangover is a result of years of inefficient stimulus spending. "Since 2021, the debt-to-GDP has climbed by almost 30 percentage points to 310% of GDP in the second quarter of 2024 — and is set to climb further to 312% by the end of this year, according to Morgan Stanley." (China Economy: China’s local government debt problems are a hidden drag on economic growth, 2024). Conservative (talk) 19:15, September 28, 2024 (EDT)
The Founding Fathers never made it an inalienable right that one could retire at 65. In 1776, the average male life expectancy in America was about 35 to 38 years old. Get out of your Lazy Boy chair grandpa!
Why the Number Was So Low
• High Infant Mortality: A massive driver of this low average was childhood death. Roughly 10% to 43% of children died before reaching age five due to poor sanitation and infectious diseases like smallpox, dysentery, and malaria. • Not Everyone Died Young: If a person managed to survive childhood and reach adulthood in colonial America, their outlook changed completely. Adults frequently lived well into their 60s and 70s, much like people do today. most people in the late 1700s worked until they died or were physically unable to continue. In early America, the concept of a modern "retirement" did not exist. Several cultural and economic realities shaped this lifelong labor model:
1. An Agrarian, Household Economy
In the late 1700s, the vast majority of Americans lived and worked on family farms or in family-run artisanal shops. Because work was deeply integrated into household survival, there was no institutional concept of "leaving" a job.
• Shifting Roles: As people grew old, they didn't stop working; instead, they transitioned to less physically demanding tasks. An aging farmer might hand the heavy plowing over to his children but continue tending to livestock, repairing tools, or managing household affairs.
2. No Financial Safety Nets
There were no corporate pensions, no Social Security, and no retirement savings accounts in the 18th century.
• Family Dependency: If an elderly person became completely incapacitated, they relied entirely on their children or extended family for care. • The "Poor House": For those without family or property, the options were grim. They often had to rely on local community charity or ended up in local poorhouses.
3. The Shift to Modern Retirement
Retirement as a mass phenomenon only emerged much later with the Industrial Revolution in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. When workers transitioned from family farms to urban factories, older individuals could no longer keep up with the grueling speed of assembly lines. This shift forced companies and the government to invent pensions and retirement ages to transition older generations out of the industrial workforce. Conservative (talk) 13:00, October 7, 2026 (EDT)
- Wow. What insightful wisdom. It still doesn't answer the question why you reject the prescriptions of Dr. Milton Friedman to address the national debt and embrace the Marxist policy of class war - "rich against poor", tax the rich?
Foghorn LeghornDo normal heterosexuals spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 13:03, October 7, 2026 (EDT)
True conservatives don't slow down at 65 because FDR wanted them to. Real conservatives are predators of wokeness and increase the national GNP. They are not retirees
For more information, please see: Essay: The USA can reduce its national debt. It has done it before
Update: User:Conservative now subscribes to and promotes the economic theories of Karl Marx & John Maynard Keynes.
Question: is User:Conservative's claim that "real conservatives are not retirees" a veiled pitch for euthanasia and exterminating the elderly to reduce the national debt and other "throw grandma from the cliff" ideas? Foghorn LeghornDo normal heterosexuals spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 13:36, October 7, 2026 (EDT)
Did Milton Friedman propose repealing the Social Security withholding tax in Free to Choose?
AI Overview
Yes, Milton Friedman (along with Rose Friedman) proposed winding down Social Security and repealing the payroll tax in their 1980 book, Free to Choose: A Personal Statement.
Key Details of the Proposal in Free to Choose:
• Winding Down Social Security: The Friedmans argued that the Social Security system was fundamentally flawed and operated as an intergenerational transfer program rather than a true retirement-savings plan.
• Immediate Repeal of the Payroll Tax: They proposed immediately repealing the Social Security payroll (withholding) tax.
• Honoring Current Beneficiaries: To transition away from the system, they recommended continuing to pay all existing beneficiaries the amounts they were promised.
• Compensating Younger Workers: For younger workers or those who had not yet earned full coverage, they proposed providing a capital sum—such as government bonds or an annuity option—equal to the accumulated value of the taxes they (and their employers) had already paid into the system.
• Shifting to Private Retirement & Negative Income Tax: Under their vision, individuals would be free to manage and invest their own retirement savings privately, while a negative income tax would serve as a safety net for anyone who remained indigent or poor.
Immediate repeal of the Social Security tax 46 years ago in 1980 when the National Debt was $986 Billion, less than $1 Trillion. In 46 years, now that the debt has grown 40x, User:Conservative has had plenty of time to read Friedman's Free to Choose or at least familiarize himself with Friedman's ideas. But he hasn't.
"an intergenerational transfer program". What does User:Conservative propose in this Essay to cover a $40 Trillion debt? a transfer program from rich to poor, i.e. communism.
The man is not a conservative. He's a pretentious idiot.
Foghorn LeghornDo normal heterosexuals spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 04:35, November 8, 2026 (EST)
U.S. GNP growth
For more information on this topic, please see:
*Essay: Slow and steady growth of the money supply under the economic theories of the incompetent pedophile John Maynard Keynes and its rapid growth by Keynesian economic stimulus the few times its GNP has gone down is costly to the long term economy.
Don't worry. Come January 2027, the Democrats will increase the $40 Trillion national debt by adding 3 or 4 Trillion dollars more over the next two years by kicking down another $1.25 billion in Food Stamp aid and $325 billion to the corrupt Ukraine Nazis.
Locking the barndoor after the horse gets out, again
At what point do you decide, "Okay, I have done enough damage to Conservapedia & the conservative movement. Time to cover my butt?" RobSZelensky Must Go! 02:15, June 5, 2025 (EDT)
Slowing the expansion of debt is not "paying down the debt"
Reducing borrowing as a percentage of the national debt IS NOT "paying down the debt." It is reducing borrowing, NOT paying down exiting debt. More misleading liberal claptrap PIDOOMA'd by user:Conservative.
By stopping or reducing the use of your credit card IS NOT "paying down the debt". All it does is reduce future debt service obligations. RobSZelensky Must Go! 02:30, June 5, 2025 (EDT)
User:Conservative proven wrong, AGAIN
User:Conservative is author of the phrase, "the incompetent British economist and pedophile John Maynard Keynes" spammed into dozens of encyclopedic Mainspaces. Then User:Conservative defends Keynesian Economics with "A great strength of the United States is its very consistent growth of its GNP over decades and its quick recovery the few times its GNP has gone down" which has resulted in a $40 Trillion National Debt.
- User:Conservative writes:
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User:Conservative claims simultaneous deficit spending "three decades" after WWII on the Great Society, Vietnam war, and the military-industrial complex by liberals is "disciplined postwar budgets". The Gingrich Revolution and a balanced budget did not happen until five decades after WWII.
"It has done it before"
Yep. It was the 92% tax rate of the New Deal, seizure of private wealth and assets, that caused Ronald Reagan to leave the Democrat Party. RobSDo heterosexual normies spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 15:41, September 28, 2026 (EDT) Personal remark removed MayGodBless (talk) 17:16, September 28, 2026 (EDT)
User:Conservative announces his conversion to the Occupy Wall Street "We Are The 99%" movement with his recommendation in this Essay to confiscate $40 Trillion in private equity wealth.
- The Whole World Is Protesting. Global wealth inequality is leading to global protests.
Has Vladimir Putin been getting ideas from User:Conservative's claptrap?
Further analysis
- Article:
I trust this further clarifies matters. Conservative (talk) 17:26, September 28, 2026 (EDT)
- No. spamming your own blog is self-promotion - a cause for which dozens of accounts are in the process of being blocked right now. RobSDo heterosexual normies spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 17:57, September 28, 2026 (EDT)
- Just stop digging. You're only digging the hole deeper. If you could learn how to carry on a civil discussion, and abandon the maliciousness you feel toward your "enemies", you may learn how to effectively collaborate.
- Foghorn LeghornDo normal heterosexuals spend 20 yrs obsessing over gay bars, bathhouses and drag queens? 14:15, November 8, 2026 (EST)