Talk:Infant baptism

Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 is most often cited that no form of baptism is required for salvation. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you Rob. The dispute over this issue also includes a requisite follow-up by the believer
according to the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20
and the requirement of Mark 16:15-16 and Acts 8:35-39; Acts 9:17-19; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 19:1-6,
together with the commandment of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
According to 1 Peter 3:21 baptism (in Christ) is what saves us now (as cited in the article).
Infant baptism here includes a list-citation of undeniable Bible references which mention the requirement of baptism for salvation.
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.
Any preaching that ignores these verses is a good example of confirmation bias and of Cafeteria Christianity.

See also the general article on Baptism.
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

It's basically the difference between Roman Catholic and Protestant; Protestants say it takes the conscious will of the believer; Catholics say it doesn't. In the Mormon faith they practice intercessionary baptism for the dead, which isn't far removed from infant baptism. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:19, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

The resemblance is only superficial. See the article fallacy of analogy. The differences between Catholic and Mormon theology are profound, not to mention the fact that Catholicism is monotheistic and the Mormon faith posits a multiplicity of separately distinct god-beings comparable to the doctrine of Cosmic Humanism. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:59, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

Not that far off; the idea of a ceremonial cleansing ritual necessary for salvation for a subject who hasn't given consent is ridiculous. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:23, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

Also, it might be worth noting that several manuscripts and numerous versions of the modern Bible include verse 37 in Acts 8:35-39. The NIV just leaves out this verse:

“

See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” [37] Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” [38] So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

”

This verse makes it clear that the belief is required prior to baptism. --DavidB4 ^(TALK) 16:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. Ritual cleansing cannot satisfy God.

Here's the Express drive-thru scriptural interpretation:

• Satan defied God and when he said "I will exalt myself..."
• Jesus provided the way for salvation when he said "Father, let this cup pass, nevertheless Thy will, not my will..."
• In the proverb of the Prodigal son, which is a metaphor for all unsaved humanity, the prodigal son said, "I will return to house of my father...." (i.e. metanoia or repentance, a change of heart and mind toward his father) without any ritual cleansing on his part. When he arrived, he was clothed by his father. Only the blood of Jesus saves;.

And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth. Salvation is not dependent upon any action (or "work") by us. "It is finished", as Jesus said. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:20, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

In the body of the article I covered both sides of that point as follows:

This doctrine of "regenerative baptism" which causes an ontological change that actually cleanses and washes away sins, by effecting in the soul a new supernatural life directly infused by the "washing of water with the word", is found by apologists for infant baptism in the following scriptural texts:

Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:25-29a; Jeremiah 24:7; 31:31-33; Titus 3:5-6; 2 Peter 1:9; 1 Peter 3:21; Ephesians 5:25b-27; and Colossians 2:9-14.

They point to these texts as teaching that according to the Bible baptism saves us now by regeneration of the soul unto new life, as a "new creature", and that Jesus sanctifies and cleanses his church with the washing of water with the word as a sign of the cleansing of the soul by his blood, to present the whole church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. They point to the fact that Paul teaches by a typological analogy that baptism replaces circumcision, which is done when a child is only eight days old, which made that baby a genuine member of the people of God, to be raised and taught the way of the Lord in truth, by the priests of the faith.

This doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which includes infant baptism, is repudiated as being totally against the teaching of the Bible. Abraham, our father in faith, was converted, regenerated, forgiven and had righteousness reckoned (imputed) to him by faith (an unborn or newborn child cannot exercise faith), being circumcised in the heart by faith, apart from physical circumcision, baptism, or any other statute, or ordinance. Those who reject infant baptism as regenerative or salvific in any manner accept that the outward symbol of washing of water with the word is an ordinance to be faithfully obeyed, not a sacrament, an outward testimony to faith in the salvation of God through believing in the promises of Jesus Christ alone. They obey His ordained ordinances, including baptism, because by faith in Him they are regenerated, not in order to be regenerated; and as a result of having a new heart, not that they might receive a new heart.

No one can say that I didn't present both sides. The scriptures listed here are the best response I can give to the objections raised here regarding the need for conscious repentance, and the fact that infants unborn and born are incapable of it before they are able to walk. You have clearly articulated the position for credobaptism, reiterating the arguments for it which I was very careful to represent without distortion as more extensively explained in the article. Having been an ardent Conservative Baptist and anti-Catholic in my youth, I know the arguments for it from the inside. See the related article giving both views in Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation. Both cannot be true at the same time. Only one is probably right. Either that, or both are wrong. Meanwhile, look at Revelation 22:11 and Matthew 15:14. It remains a matter of faith and discernment and being "honest to God". In accordance with your own tradition of preaching, be very certain that your position is correct before you die. I cannot fault your obviously genuine sincerity and your passion for scriptural proof in defense of your position. This response above, and the whole of the article itself, is all I have to say to your position that baptism is not required for salvation. As a Bible believer, I cannot ignore the whole of the scriptural context of the Bible. I wish you well. pax vobis. --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you. I wasn't intending to get into an argument over the merits of one side or the other. Th Protestant version is quite straight forward - Romans 9:9-10, and Ephesian 2:8 By grace are ye saved...not of works, attributing baptism as a "work" on the believers part, nullifying the work on the cross. In Protestantism, physical baptism is symbolic, and not necessary for salvation. Even in John the Baptist's day, it was symbolic; it wasn't lepers "going out in the wilderness to see," as Jesus said, it was lost sinners to hear the word of God, and be "immersed" or "baptized" in the word. John the Baptist performed a ritual, which was only symbolic, while delivering the word. This is the Protestant teaching in a few words. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:15, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Even in Catholicism, infant baptism is symbolic, because babies are not immersed, only sprinkled. The word baptism means immersed. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:21, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

The regular Catholic rite of baptism is by infusion (pouring), or by immersion (being immersed) or submersion (standing in water, with water poured over the head), not by aspersion. You have been misinformed by sources that cannot be trusted, since it is evident that what they told you about Catholic baptism is not true.
Look at Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." And John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
According to Catholic doctrine the sacrament of water baptism is an actual application of the blood of Christ directly to the soul through the washing (λουτρόν loutron, not solely immersion βαπτίζω baptizo) of water with the word (both word and water are required). As Moses sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) the book and all the people with blood, purifying them, "purging them", so also the sprinkling (of the blood of Christ) in baptism purges away sin (Hebrews 9:18-23). "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus [Baptism], By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say, his flesh [Eucharist]; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed (λουτρόν loutron) with pure water." The evil conscience is the stain of original sin in the sight of God which makes us aware that we already from the moment of conception fall short of the glory of God, and the additional defilement of an evil conscience by any personal sins committed after birth. Thus infants and babies are cleansed of an evil conscience because of original sin. If they didn't have sin, they could not die (Romans 5:12), but many babies and newborns do die. Baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21 by washing away sins Acts 22:16. Catholic tradition since the time of the catacombs and the imprisonment of converts not yet baptized (the Romans even condemned babies of converts) taught then and teaches now the act of baptism into the blood of Christ unto salvation was held to have been accomplished in emergency with the least droplet of "water with the word" in accordance with the command in Matthew 28:19 to [first] baptize making them disciples, to be followed in Matthew 28:20 by [second] the teaching of the faith of belief, "all that I have commanded you". In the article I listed those several verses which are cited to support regenerative baptism.

The necessity of baptism for salvation is seen by the majority of Christians as divinely revealed by God in the following Bible texts:
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.

"You are badly misled" Mark 12:27. (James 5:20) —Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

John 4:10, "I will give you living waters" [1], spoken by the same guy who said, "unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit (he said nothing of immersion in either context).

I was baptized Catholic I think at about 10 days old. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:13, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Take a look at the new section presenting a comparative analysis of Faith and Works relating to infant baptism Infant baptism#Faith and works. If this is not balanced, or unfair, please let me know. I hope this helps. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Thanks. And the link to Eternal security (salvation) is a big help. It all comes down to the simple Question of What is Salvation?

From there we ask Why did Christ die?, or What is the work of the cross?

When those questions are answered, then comes the question What is necessary for salvation?, which leads to the question surrounding "baptism", and what does it mean "to be baptized."

IOWs, we sort of started in a reverse order here. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:19, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Article completed, request that it be locked

I have finally completed the whole article, after carefully reviewing and representing all of the relevant controversial views and sources historical and contemporary both pro and con. Due to the intense controvery and polemic attending this topic that I found still evident online during my researches, I humbly ask that the article be locked to prevent both vandalism and any re-editing by subtle deletions and additions intended to slant it more toward or away from any one particular doctrinal view. "Just the facts, Ma'am." (Det. Sgt. Joe Friday–Dragnet TV series).
Peace be with you. Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:39, 18 October 2019 (EDT)

"Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35

Consider the argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19.
No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope βρέφη brephe (Luke 18:15).
Compare Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39
Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible.
Compare 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35.
The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God saves them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26).
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: Helpless babies and sinners.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

What is salvation?

And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:

2:8 By grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God. - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.

But you are citing it in your second reference,

Romans 5:15: But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man - again, a gift with no conditions.

So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And salvation is by grace.

The only condition for salvation is acceptance of the gift. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Your argument seems to be that salvation is some future event, after life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define salvation; (2) explain why salvation is not for the here and now. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation is eternal life instead of death, given by baptism now. Simple.
The gift of unmerited salvation which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism (Titus 3:5) "which saves you now" (1 Peter 3:21) ex opere operato, through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the sacrament himself through his blood (1 Peter 1:2), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr τις tis "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be saved. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26). He commanded baptism in Matthew 28:19.
"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; John 15:10).
Jesus does this from love for a purpose (John 3:17; Ephesians 1:5; Matthew 28:19).
Salvation is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross (1 John 1:7) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, saved from the everlasting ruin of sin, saved for "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Romans 2:7; 1 John 3:7; James 2:24). Babies saved by the salvation of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through salvation by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—saved from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin (1 John 3:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Revelation 20:15; 22:14-15). The essence of salvation, and the result of salvation, bestowed on the helpless sinner is a partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul (Romans 5:6) by "water and the Spirit", and the eucharist, which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.
Read the article Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org).
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, When does salvation begin?

And you know my next question, Can a person loose their salvation? Is God's promise of salvation limited? Can "salvation by baptism" be lost? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation begins with baptism. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1213-1284 and 1987-2029. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that salvation can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article Eternal security (salvation). Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing salvation are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article Infant baptism. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. (1&nbap; Peter 3:15)

(by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Baptism does not save. The blood of Jesus saves. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.

Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.

This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men

See also Mark chapter 7: “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Let me point out the obvious error - without shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us." —You deny this.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." —You contradict this.

Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." —You deny this.

2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." —You deny this warning.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." —You deny this danger.

2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."

1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"
Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism saves by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20.
Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

It is the blood of Christ that saves, not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died. There is nothing you can do to save your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. For by grace are ye saved, not baptism. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of Confirmation bias and Fallacy of invincible ignorance. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

One flaw: I asked What is salvation? You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

The Bible says "baptism now saves us." That's salvation. Clearly, no debate. --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Without shedding of blood there is no remission. I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what salvation is.

Lean what salvation is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation

Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

In verse 5 he says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses saved? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:

John 1:27 No man hath seen God at any time

Exodus 33:11 The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend

Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But we have the mind of Christ.

So, to restate: No (natural) man hath seen God at any time... Moses had the mind of Christ enabling him to speak with the Lord face to face.

Exodus 33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight

Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)

It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Fundamental Salvation

For the benefit of other readers here, it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your last statement above "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh" (1213-1284 and 1987-2029).
It's pretty simple. Baptism saves the soul. A child can understand that.

You asked me to answer the question, "What is salvation?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is salvation?" is set forth fully in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a reiteration of all that the Bible says. The Catechism defines salvation from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the literal sense of scripture, the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior and sensus Christianorum of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35; Mark 12:24; 1 Corinthians 15:34).

I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (Conservative Baptist) in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been told they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:

Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; and John 14:16-17 with John 16:12-14.

I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" (Romans 13:1-10; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:13-17). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".

Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him (Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; 12:48). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of salvation through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) in baptism with water (1 John 5:6; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Revelation 1:5), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant together, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 and 26; 16:13-14; Matthew 28:19-20), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the Anabaptists and Baptists as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page.
Proverbs 28:9 — also 18:1; 20:3; 22:10; 26:12; 27:3; 30:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Hebs: 4:2 RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?

Remember, death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

[2] [3] [4] --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of salvation? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Two clues:

Exodus 33:12: And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.

John 5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Also,

Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of salvation by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness before the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's salvation, they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot save.

Salvation is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.

If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer What is salvation?, or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.

That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit.

The natural man cannot understand the things of God.

You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

[18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

More church doctrine, rendering the word of God to no effect.

IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (and their carcasses fell in the wilderness).

Rom. 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

Rom. 4:15: For the law brings wrath

Rom. 8:6: to be carnally minded [the natural man] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, 'which is no gospel at all (Gal. 1:7).

The early Apostles had this debate, Ye must be circumcised, the same as "ye must be physically baptized." Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter (Rom. 2:29). RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of salvation by grace is. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

The flesh profiteth nothing. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves

Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says (see the article):

• Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
• Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
• Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
• This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 1 John 5:6
• There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 1 John 5:8
• Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
• With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
• The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
• Be baptized, and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
• Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
• Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
• Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
• God is not willing that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
• We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
• To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
• A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14

• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
• He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
  Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.
• He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9

The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

• That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit
• God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
• they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Water baptism is of the flesh. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes with water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration (γεννεθή gennethe) of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the power to please God.

• Except a person be regenerated by water and the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" γεννεθή gennethe interlinear text
  from γεννάω gennao "procreate, regenerate".
• And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11
  "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19.
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
• For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27
• Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4.
• even when we were dead through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). Ephesians 2:5.
  (Grace χάριτί charity the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the faith πίστεως pisteos of man toward God. See Ephesians 2:8-10. Compare
  grace χάρις charis "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God and
  faith ριστις pistis "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for salvation, expressed by man.)
• one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:5-6.

According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer 1 Timothy 4:5. So water is made holy with the word. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.)

The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of salvation through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of Docetism which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting salvation. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work salvation directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 ex opere operato. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can save him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning salvation by faith is a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal ordinance of water without the power of the Spirit.

Consistently, on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture, the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a heresy the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of salvation by water and the Spirit, and that salvation is sola fide without any need for works of mercy, condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and apostasy, the doctrine of eternal security.

This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to Infant baptism. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and salvation sola fide. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Were any Old testament figures saved by grace or baptism?

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight

Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Next question: Was Job saved? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth saved? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) saved? Was David saved? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah saved?

We know Abraham was saved (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) long before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was saved, as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.

So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).

The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

"So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures." You say they were already saved before any of this took place.
Either you have done away with the need for Christ by faith alone sola fide, or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for salvation 1 Peter 3:18-21. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1260

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."

Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,

"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

They had to wait, because they had not yet been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Was Abraham saved?

Rom 4: 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.

Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Exodus chapter 33

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight

Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the Beatific vision. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come.
In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on Deuteronomy 5:4 "The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire." Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".

That's your response?

• Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Let Us Reason Ministries - a Pentecostal refutation of sola fide - "Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?"

We ourselves in our own helpless weakness do not even know how to pray, like helpless infants in their weakness who have no faith (see Helpless babies and sinners . We are all like newborn babies who need the Holy Spirit to intercede for us in the regenerative baptism of water and the Spirit unto new life. "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit intercedes for us with sighs and groanings too deep for words."

The following Pentecostal article is here quoted in full.

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Cults Escaping the Cult Apologetics Current Trends Bible Doctrines Bible Explanations Ecumenism Emergent church Prophecy Latter Rain Word Faith Popular Teachers Pentecostal Issues Trinity / Deity World Religions New Age Movement Book Reviews Testimonies For printing our articles please copy the web page by highlighting the text first - then click copy in the browser- paste the article into a word program on your computer. When the text is transferred into word, click to save or print. Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? We hear many teach that every time Jesus healed a person he said "According to YOUR faith, be it unto you," as if God always waits to enact His miraculous power by our faith. But this is not accurate, and one simply has to read all the Scriptures on healing and not focus on certain ones to understand this. I believe in God's supernatural healing , Our God is one who does miracles. Today we hear that it only takes faith for the Lord to answer our prayer.What If one is not healed by faith, does it means they are a failure, because they did not exercise the faith that God needed in order to react. Jesus When Jesus was physically on earth he healed everyone that asked Him, But he also healed those who did not ask Him. Luke 6:19: “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.” Luke 9:11: “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.” Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. They were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He is. Matt 14:14 :“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.” So many brought friends and loved ones out to be healed. Matt 15:30:: “Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.” Healings were done in numerous ways. There were times Jesus responded to the faith of another person who asked on behalf of the one who needed healing. Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed. Mk.5:35-43 The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith and asking. The paralytic was carried by his friends to Jesus and “When Jesus saw their faith” (for their friend) He pronounced his sins forgiven first and then healed him (Mark 2:2-12). Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith. Jesus healed people from the ultimate sickness of sin, death. In Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith that raised himself, he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe he was their Messiah (also Lk. 8:54). Other examples are in John 18:10, when Peter cut of the ear of Malchus, Jesus healed him without any faith from anyone. Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith. The Bible records Jesus doing just as many miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. Jesus performed miracles with disbelief among the disciples. Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercised in only 10 of the accounts. Healing of the lame man (Jn.5:1-9) the cleansing of a leper (Mt.8:2-4) healing a mans withered hand (Mt.9:2-8) the healing of the man born blind (Jn.9:1-7) healing the blindness of Bartemaeus (Mt.20:29-34) The women who had a blood flow (Mt.9:20-22; Mk.5:24-34) Peter who walked on water to Jesus (Mt.14:24-33) the miraculous catching of the fish (Lk.5:1-11) and the second miraculous catch (Jn.21:1-11) The cleansing of the 10 lepers of which only one had faith (Lk.17:11-19). Jesus did not indiscriminately heal ALL the people ALL of the time, but It was those God willed to be healed that were healed. While he required faith for some he did not require it for all. In John 5:1-15: (v.3) multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethsaida to be healed, Jesus did not call everyone forward, He picked only one person to be healed, a blind and lame man. Jesus initiated a conversation and asked the man at the pool of Bethsaida if he wanted to be made well. His answer was that there was no one to carry him to the pool, believing that if he entered the water he would be healed. The man with the infirmity was healed by God’s grace. He had no faith in Jesus; he didn’t even know it was Jesus who healed him until later (v.12-13). In John 9 we find a blind man who did not ask to be healed, but was picked to be healed out of many others. This also was God’s grace. When Jesus saw the man blind from birth responding to His disciples’ inquiry, He healed him without his asking. It was not about their faith as much as it is about His will. Everyone Jesus WILLED to be healed was healed, 100%. This is the basis for a healing from a biblical frame of reference. He did not only heal those who had faith, He often picked those who had no faith. Matt 13:13-15: "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.' Because they did not understand Jesus did not heal them. What did they not understand? His teaching and who He was, they did not repent. True supernatural healings do not always require faith it’s bestowed in mercy by the providence of God. The healings that are from God are always 100% successful, without any relapses, and are almost always immediate. False and psychological healings require physical contact, they can have relapses, and do not heal organic disorders and are not usually immediate. “Faith healers” claim you must keep your faith for your healing or the devil will come and steal it. Nowhere are God's healings spoken of in this way. Real miracles are under God's control with or without the use of man; false miracles always come by mans hands, and are done by their own dictates. The Bible records Jesus doing many miracles in the absence of anyone exercising faith than with faith present. This is very significant considering the current teaching of faith being necessary for ones healing. The Apostles healing ministry After Jesus physically left earth and the apostles were leaders of the church, they were commissioned with the gospel and authority to do as Jesus did. Acts 3:2-6: “And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk." The man at the Gate beautiful was not seeking healing but money, he had no faith. John and Peter might of walked by this man a number of times to the temple but on this certain day they were moved to raise him up from his sick bed. Miracles through the apostles became widespread outside of Israel to the Gentiles. In 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. Lack of Faith was not the problem. 2 Timothy 4:20 says: “Trophemus I left in Miletus sick.” Trophemus a companion of Paul was left as Paul went on ministering, he did not encourage him to have faith to be healed. In Philippians 2:26, 30 mentions Epaphroditus as a devoted servant of the Lord; he became sick and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see their prayers were answered by God’s will and in his timing. All Christians should pray for God to heal when it is needed. In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 Paul had a thorn in the flesh In Vv.9-10 Paul laments “Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” God denied Paul to be healed for a reason. So to say everyone must be healed because of what Jesus did on the cross is wrong, the gospel is primarily about forgiveness of sin. There is now a teaching inside the church that our cup of communion heals. Jesus said “This is My blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice He said for sin. This is an ordinance that physically is to remind us of the actual crucifixion event. We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from. Now the question arises: “since sickness is from sin,” if our sin is forgiven we should not be sick? The Bible does not teach we have or can obtain sinless perfection in this life, so why should we think we would be free of sicknesses? Even death is from sin -- if we believe communion heals absolutely then those who take it would never physically die. We die because we are not cured physically from our sickness of sin until the day of resurrection. We are currently forgiven and cleansed by the blood in a legal sense but not in a completed physical sense. This is reserved for the day of our resurrection when corruptible will become incorruptible. It is only then sin will be dealt the deathblow and we will live forever in an immortal physical body. We are presently clothed in Christ’s righteousness because we have faith in him who fulfilled the law, and is our substitute. One day we will personally be made righteous and what He accomplished will be fully applied to our body, not just our spirit. Rom.8:15 we live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. When one teaches all must be healed now they must ignore the context of the greater portion of Scripture. The faith teachers are not dividing the word correctly. They teach by faith we can today obtain everything scripture says. They apply blessings what will only take place millennial to us now. Divine health so that you are never to be sick is not the teaching of Scripture; it is divine healing that is taught, it is in God’s hand when and how one would be healed. Real faith trusts him, is patient and perserveres. Copyright (c) 2012 No portion of this site is to be copied or used unless kept in its original format in the way it appears. Articles can be reproduced in portions for ones personal use, any other use is to have the permission of the author first. Thank You.

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