Talk:Infant baptism

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Romans 10:9

Romans 10:9 is most often cited that no form of baptism is required for salvation. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 6 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you Rob. The dispute over this issue also includes a requisite follow-up by the believer
according to the Great Commission of Matthew 28:19-20
and the requirement of Mark 16:15-16 and Acts 8:35-39; Acts 9:17-19; Acts 10:47-48; Acts 19:1-6,
together with the commandment of Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
According to 1 Peter 3:21 baptism (in Christ) is what saves us now (as cited in the article).
Infant baptism here includes a list-citation of undeniable Bible references which mention the requirement of baptism for salvation.
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.
Any preaching that ignores these verses is a good example of confirmation bias and of Cafeteria Christianity.

See also the general article on Baptism.
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:01, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

It's basically the difference between Roman Catholic and Protestant; Protestants say it takes the conscious will of the believer; Catholics say it doesn't. In the Mormon faith they practice intercessionary baptism for the dead, which isn't far removed from infant baptism. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:19, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

The resemblance is only superficial. See the article fallacy of analogy. The differences between Catholic and Mormon theology are profound, not to mention the fact that Catholicism is monotheistic and the Mormon faith posits a multiplicity of separately distinct god-beings comparable to the doctrine of Cosmic Humanism. --Dataclarifier (talk) 15:59, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

Not that far off; the idea of a ceremonial cleansing ritual necessary for salvation for a subject who hasn't given consent is ridiculous. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:23, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

Also, it might be worth noting that several manuscripts and numerous versions of the modern Bible include verse 37 in Acts 8:35-39. The NIV just leaves out this verse:

“

See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” [37] Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” [38] So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

”

This verse makes it clear that the belief is required prior to baptism. --DavidB4 ^(TALK) 16:42, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

The issue is salvation. And what is required for salvation. The answer is metanoia - repentance - a change of heart and change of mind. A change of heart and mind in your attitude toward God, sin, and what God says about sin. Ritual cleansing cannot satisfy God.

Here's the Express drive-thru scriptural interpretation:

• Satan defied God and when he said "I will exalt myself..."
• Jesus provided the way for salvation when he said "Father, let this cup pass, nevertheless Thy will, not my will..."
• In the proverb of the Prodigal son, which is a metaphor for all unsaved humanity, the prodigal son said, "I will return to house of my father...." (i.e. metanoia or repentance, a change of heart and mind toward his father) without any ritual cleansing on his part. When he arrived, he was clothed by his father. Only the blood of Jesus saves;.

And I should have included this part up front: remainder of Romans 10:9-10, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In all three examples above the "I will" part came out of the mouth. Salvation is not dependent upon any action (or "work") by us. "It is finished", as Jesus said. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:20, 7 October 2019 (EDT)

In the body of the article I covered both sides of that point as follows:

This doctrine of "regenerative baptism" which causes an ontological change that actually cleanses and washes away sins, by effecting in the soul a new supernatural life directly infused by the "washing of water with the word", is found by apologists for infant baptism in the following scriptural texts:

Ezekiel 11:19-20; 36:25-29a; Jeremiah 24:7; 31:31-33; Titus 3:5-6; 2 Peter 1:9; 1 Peter 3:21; Ephesians 5:25b-27; and Colossians 2:9-14.

They point to these texts as teaching that according to the Bible baptism saves us now by regeneration of the soul unto new life, as a "new creature", and that Jesus sanctifies and cleanses his church with the washing of water with the word as a sign of the cleansing of the soul by his blood, to present the whole church in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. They point to the fact that Paul teaches by a typological analogy that baptism replaces circumcision, which is done when a child is only eight days old, which made that baby a genuine member of the people of God, to be raised and taught the way of the Lord in truth, by the priests of the faith.

This doctrine of baptismal regeneration, which includes infant baptism, is repudiated as being totally against the teaching of the Bible. Abraham, our father in faith, was converted, regenerated, forgiven and had righteousness reckoned (imputed) to him by faith (an unborn or newborn child cannot exercise faith), being circumcised in the heart by faith, apart from physical circumcision, baptism, or any other statute, or ordinance. Those who reject infant baptism as regenerative or salvific in any manner accept that the outward symbol of washing of water with the word is an ordinance to be faithfully obeyed, not a sacrament, an outward testimony to faith in the salvation of God through believing in the promises of Jesus Christ alone. They obey His ordained ordinances, including baptism, because by faith in Him they are regenerated, not in order to be regenerated; and as a result of having a new heart, not that they might receive a new heart.

No one can say that I didn't present both sides. The scriptures listed here are the best response I can give to the objections raised here regarding the need for conscious repentance, and the fact that infants unborn and born are incapable of it before they are able to walk. You have clearly articulated the position for credobaptism, reiterating the arguments for it which I was very careful to represent without distortion as more extensively explained in the article. Having been an ardent Conservative Baptist and anti-Catholic in my youth, I know the arguments for it from the inside. See the related article giving both views in Salvation: declarational salvation and ontological salvation. Both cannot be true at the same time. Only one is probably right. Either that, or both are wrong. Meanwhile, look at Revelation 22:11 and Matthew 15:14. It remains a matter of faith and discernment and being "honest to God". In accordance with your own tradition of preaching, be very certain that your position is correct before you die. I cannot fault your obviously genuine sincerity and your passion for scriptural proof in defense of your position. This response above, and the whole of the article itself, is all I have to say to your position that baptism is not required for salvation. As a Bible believer, I cannot ignore the whole of the scriptural context of the Bible. I wish you well. pax vobis. --Dataclarifier (talk) 11:00, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Thank you. I wasn't intending to get into an argument over the merits of one side or the other. Th Protestant version is quite straight forward - Romans 9:9-10, and Ephesian 2:8 By grace are ye saved...not of works, attributing baptism as a "work" on the believers part, nullifying the work on the cross. In Protestantism, physical baptism is symbolic, and not necessary for salvation. Even in John the Baptist's day, it was symbolic; it wasn't lepers "going out in the wilderness to see," as Jesus said, it was lost sinners to hear the word of God, and be "immersed" or "baptized" in the word. John the Baptist performed a ritual, which was only symbolic, while delivering the word. This is the Protestant teaching in a few words. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:15, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Even in Catholicism, infant baptism is symbolic, because babies are not immersed, only sprinkled. The word baptism means immersed. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:21, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

The regular Catholic rite of baptism is by infusion (pouring), or by immersion (being immersed) or submersion (standing in water, with water poured over the head), not by aspersion. You have been misinformed by sources that cannot be trusted, since it is evident that what they told you about Catholic baptism is not true.
Look at Hebrews 10:22 "Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water." And John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." And 1 Peter 1:2 "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
According to Catholic doctrine the sacrament of water baptism is an actual application of the blood of Christ directly to the soul through the washing (λουτρόν loutron, not solely immersion βαπτίζω baptizo) of water with the word (both word and water are required). As Moses sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) the book and all the people with blood, purifying them, "purging them", so also the sprinkling (of the blood of Christ) in baptism purges away sin (Hebrews 9:18-23). "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus [Baptism], By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the vail, that is to say, his flesh [Eucharist]; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts [already] sprinkled (ραντίσμος rhantismos) from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed (λουτρόν loutron) with pure water." The evil conscience is the stain of original sin in the sight of God which makes us aware that we already from the moment of conception fall short of the glory of God, and the additional defilement of an evil conscience by any personal sins committed after birth. Thus infants and babies are cleansed of an evil conscience because of original sin. If they didn't have sin, they could not die (Romans 5:12), but many babies and newborns do die. Baptism saves 1 Peter 3:21 by washing away sins Acts 22:16. Catholic tradition since the time of the catacombs and the imprisonment of converts not yet baptized (the Romans even condemned babies of converts) taught then and teaches now the act of baptism into the blood of Christ unto salvation was held to have been accomplished in emergency with the least droplet of "water with the word" in accordance with the command in Matthew 28:19 to [first] baptize making them disciples, to be followed in Matthew 28:20 by [second] the teaching of the faith of belief, "all that I have commanded you". In the article I listed those several verses which are cited to support regenerative baptism.

The necessity of baptism for salvation is seen by the majority of Christians as divinely revealed by God in the following Bible texts:
John 3:3-5; Matthew 28:18-19; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39; Ephesians 5:25-27; 1 Peter 3:21.

"You are badly misled" Mark 12:27. (James 5:20) —Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:58, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

John 4:10, "I will give you living waters" [1], spoken by the same guy who said, "unless a man be born of water and of the Spirit (he said nothing of immersion in either context).

I was baptized Catholic I think at about 10 days old. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:13, 10 October 2019 (EDT)

Take a look at the new section presenting a comparative analysis of Faith and Works relating to infant baptism Infant baptism#Faith and works. If this is not balanced, or unfair, please let me know. I hope this helps. --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:56, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Thanks. And the link to Eternal security (salvation) is a big help. It all comes down to the simple Question of What is Salvation?

From there we ask Why did Christ die?, or What is the work of the cross?

When those questions are answered, then comes the question What is necessary for salvation?, which leads to the question surrounding "baptism", and what does it mean "to be baptized."

IOWs, we sort of started in a reverse order here. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:19, 12 October 2019 (EDT)

Article completed, request that it be locked

I have finally completed the whole article, after carefully reviewing and representing all of the relevant controversial views and sources historical and contemporary both pro and con. Due to the intense controvery and polemic attending this topic that I found still evident online during my researches, I humbly ask that the article be locked to prevent both vandalism and any re-editing by subtle deletions and additions intended to slant it more toward or away from any one particular doctrinal view. "Just the facts, Ma'am." (Det. Sgt. Joe Friday–Dragnet TV series).
Peace be with you. Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 14:39, 18 October 2019 (EDT)

"Helpless" babies and sinners - Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19; Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39; 2 Timothy 2:13 and 2 Corinthians 1:19-22 and John 10:35

Consider the argument that Jesus died to save the helpless and powerless who have no faith, "having no hope and without God in the world" Ephesians 2:11-16 and Romans 5:12-19.
No one is more helpless than the unborn, newborn, infant, baby, or child in arms who cannot walk, and has no conscious faith and no conscious hope βρέφη brephe (Luke 18:15).
Compare Romans 5:6-11 and 8:31-39
Yet Jesus says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
Taken all together within the context of the whole of the Bible and together with the fact that God cannot contradict Himself, and that scripture cannot be broken, infant baptism is supported by the Bible.
Compare 2 Timothy 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:19-22; John 10:35.
The word "faith" does not appear in any of these passages. Infants without faith and hope and God are helpless, and God saves them "while they are still helpless" by baptism with water and the word (Ephesians 5:26).
Peace be with you. --Dataclarifier (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

After careful reflection and consideration, I have decided it would be useful to adapt the comments immediately above into a brief separate article: Helpless babies and sinners.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 09:14, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

What is salvation?

And please, make your response simple enough that an 8 year old child can understand. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:01, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Let me help you. First, I see you left out the context of Ephesians:

2:8 By grace are ye saved, through faith, and that not of you own; it is a gift from God. - no conditions are placed on grace, other than acceptance. A pardon must be accepted to be valid.

But you are citing it in your second reference,

Romans 5:15: But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man - again, a gift with no conditions.

So grace is a free gift of God - with no conditions (i.e. such as baptism). And salvation is by grace.

The only condition for salvation is acceptance of the gift. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:48, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Your argument seems to be that salvation is some future event, after life in the flesh. To discuss any of this, you need to (1) define salvation; (2) explain why salvation is not for the here and now. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:00, 23 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation is eternal life instead of death, given by baptism now. Simple.
The gift of unmerited salvation which gives eternal life is directly bestowed by the regeneration of baptism (Titus 3:5) "which saves you now" (1 Peter 3:21) ex opere operato, through the ministry of others not of themselves "on behalf of Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:18), on behalf of the same Lord Jesus Christ who does the actual work of the sacrament himself through his blood (1 Peter 1:2), in accordance with the established doctrinal condition demanded by the Lord Jesus Christ himself, "Except a man (Gr τις tis "anyone") be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God." John 3:5. This is the free gift of God—with the condition that the Lord himself laid down to be saved. Jesus sanctifies and cleanses "by the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26). He commanded baptism in Matthew 28:19.
"Why do you call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do what I command?" (Luke 6:46; Matthew 7:21; John 15:10).
Jesus does this from love for a purpose (John 3:17; Ephesians 1:5; Matthew 28:19).
Salvation is the rescue of the soul, by the cleansing blood of Christ on the cross (1 John 1:7) through the washing of water with the word, that the soul might be born again (regenerated) by water and the Spirit, saved from the everlasting ruin of sin, saved for "good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Romans 2:7; 1 John 3:7; James 2:24). Babies saved by the salvation of baptism grow up to serve the Lord by the power of the grace bestowed through salvation by regeneration, by the washing of water with the word, born again by water and the Spirit, buried with him in baptism—saved from the wrath to come on those who are not cleansed of their sin (1 John 3:10; 2 Corinthians 7:1; Revelation 20:15; 22:14-15). The essence of salvation, and the result of salvation, bestowed on the helpless sinner is a partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4) by the everlasting life of God in Christ Jesus poured out on the helpless soul (Romans 5:6) by "water and the Spirit", and the eucharist, which bestows the "life that now is and is to come" 1 Timothy 4:8.
Read the article Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? - Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org).
--Dataclarifier (talk) 03:10, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Ok. A rather full, complete response. Now, When does salvation begin?

And you know my next question, Can a person loose their salvation? Is God's promise of salvation limited? Can "salvation by baptism" be lost? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:46, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation begins with baptism. See the Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1213-1284 and 1987-2029. God loves the whole world so much (John 3:16-17) that he is "not willing that any should perish" 2 Peter 3:9. The doctrine that salvation can be lost, that it can be rescinded, revoked and forfeited by mortal sin, is covered in the article Eternal security (salvation). Abundant supporting Bible passages regarding the danger of losing salvation are listed and quoted there. It is also already adequately covered here in this article Infant baptism. From your question above, you either forgot the material covered in the article here, which fully answers your question, or you did not actually read it. If you did read it, please read it again. (1&nbap; Peter 3:15)

(by the way, you misspelled "lose", as in lost. "loose" is to release, set free, unfasten.)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 17:22, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Baptism does not save. The blood of Jesus saves. And eternal life does not mean eternal life, I suppose; God must be a liar, then. And you nullify the doctrine of grace and and death of Jesus if you think mortal sin can undo the work of Christ.

Who needs Jesus? and what did he die for? if we are still judged by our works (being baptized) or mortal sins? Grace, I suppose is non-existent. And when God promised eternal life, it wasn't contingent on God's sacrifice of his Son, but still on your own works is what you are preaching.

This people worships me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, teaching as commandments the doctrines of men

See also Mark chapter 7: “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!....13 thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”

Let me point out the obvious error - without shedding of blood there is no remission. Baptism is by water, not of blood. You are offering a bloodless sacrifice of your works, rejecting the work of Christ, to establish your own tradition.. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:43, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us." —You deny this.

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." —You contradict this.

Hebrews 10:26 "if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins."

2 Peter 2:20 "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." —You deny this.

2 Peter 3:17 "beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness." —You deny this warning.

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." —You deny this danger.

2 John 8 "Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward."

1 Timothy 6:3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;" 1 Timothy 6:4 "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings" 1 Timothy 6:5 "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself."

2 Timothy 2:14 "Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers."

Titus 3:9 "But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."
Titus 3:10 "A man that is an heretic after the first and second admonition reject;"
Titus 3:11 "Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

Mark 7:9 "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

Rob, you deny scripture for the sake of your tradition. I stand by the Bible. Baptism saves by the blood of Christ. And Christian believers must be careful not to lose their reward. James 5:19-20.
Semper Fi ! --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:56, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

It is the blood of Christ that saves, not water baptism. Eternal life means eternal life. While we yet sinners (helpless), Christ died. There is nothing you can do to save your self, other than faith in the finished work of Christ. For by grace are ye saved, not baptism. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

1 Peter 3:21 "baptism doth also now save us."

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born (regenerated) of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
I will not debate this further. It is evident you contradict the Bible. A perfect example of Confirmation bias and Fallacy of invincible ignorance. I will die before I ever deny the word of Jesus Christ.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

One flaw: I asked What is salvation? You responded with church doctrine and church tradition, Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:49, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

The Bible says "baptism now saves us." That's salvation. Clearly, no debate. --Dataclarifier (talk) 20:07, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Without shedding of blood there is no remission. I suspect the problem is you do not under stand what salvation is.

Lean what salvation is first, then we'll talk about being immersed in the word, or baptism in the spirit (same thing). RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 20:12, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Salvation

Let's go back to John 3:3,5. Jesus first says,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God.

In verse 5 he says.

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

So, what is the difference between "seeing" the Kingdom of God, and "entering" the Kingdom of God? Moses saw the Promised Land, but did not enter. Was Moses saved? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 20:25, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

Ok, let's go to the next level, which only the Spirit of God can reveal:

John 1:27 No man hath seen God at any time

Exodus 33:11 The Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend

Now, being immersed in the spirit, reconcile for me these two passages, and I'll believe that you are not unskillful in the word of God. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 22:41, 27 October 2019 (EDT)

we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

But we have the mind of Christ.

So, to restate: No (natural) man hath seen God at any time... Moses had the mind of Christ enabling him to speak with the Lord face to face.

Exodus 33:13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found grace in thy sight, shew me now thy way, that I may know thee, that I may find grace in thy sight

Salvation is by grace. You must have the mind of Christ, without which no man can see God (or see the Kingdom of God)

It's pretty simple. It's not rocket science. God never intended it to be a scholarly exercise. It's gotta be simple enough for a child to understand. Just remember, That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit. Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 03:46, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Fundamental Salvation

For the benefit of other readers here, it is evident that you did not read the two links I provided for direct access to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which affirms your last statement above "Baptism is of the spirit, not of the flesh" (1213-1284 and 1987-2029).
It's pretty simple. Baptism saves the soul. A child can understand that.

You asked me to answer the question, "What is salvation?" I gave you my answer from the Bible. The Bible answer to the question "What is salvation?" is set forth fully in the Catechism of the Catholic Church as a reiteration of all that the Bible says. The Catechism defines salvation from scripture alone, using abundant citations and quotations from scripture, with literal conclusions from scripture, drawn from the common understanding of the Church Fathers east and west, who based all they said on the literal sense of scripture, the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior and sensus Christianorum of Christianity, faithfully expressing "the mind of Christ", so that what you rejected as "traditions of men" is in fact the teaching of scripture, "and the scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35; Mark 12:24; 1 Corinthians 15:34).

I can say this because I am primarily and fundamentally a Bible apologist, who just happens to be Catholic. I was raised a Baptist. I know the Bible. I am 72 years old and I have read it cover to cover 82 times since before the age of 12 when I finally "went forward and accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior" and was baptized by full immersion at Grace Baptist Church (Conservative Baptist) in Des Moines, Iowa, in the spring of 1959. Shortly afterward I was appointed by the pastor as one of the "youth conversion counsellors" of newly baptized young teen converts and made one of the leaders of our Youth Group, and actively joined "Youth for Christ". Years later, as an adult, by fervent prayer, and by my knowledge of scripture and history and finding out by careful investigation what Catholicism and Orthodoxy actually teaches (which is not what I had been told they teach), at age 33 the Lord Jesus led me to embrace the Catholic Church as the most biblically faithful Church on the face of the earth. I held to three fundamental scripture passages:

Galatians 1:6-9; 1 John 2:18-19; and John 14:16-17 with John 16:12-14.

I looked for a church that did not come out of another church and teach a doctrine different from the church it came out of. Only one church qualified historically and scripturally. People asked me, "How can you do that?" I said, "Because I believe the Bible. Let me show you." I stand on the firm foundation of the doctrine of the Bible which includes all "authority established by God" (Romans 13:1-10; Hebrews 13:17; 1 Peter 2:13-17). The established Church has "the mind of Christ".

Rejection of scripture written by men who were sent by the Lord, is rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by the Father, and rejection of the word of the Lord who was sent by God is rejection of the Lord who sent Him (Luke 10:16; Matthew 10:40; Luke 9:48; John 13:20; 12:48). The full context of the teaching of the Bible itself according to the whole of the first sixteen centuries of consistent Christian understanding of salvation through the blood of Christ alone, poured out by the Holy Spirit of Christ (Romans 8:9-11) in baptism with water (1 John 5:6; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Revelation 1:5), was the reason the whole Christian Church, Catholic, Orthodox and mainstream Protestant together, guided by the Holy Spirit (John 14:16 and 26; 16:13-14; Matthew 28:19-20), condemned the credobaptism doctrine of the Anabaptists and Baptists as a doctrine of Satan himself. What they say I say with them. This is my final answer. You will not hear from me again on this page.
Proverbs 28:9 — also 18:1; 20:3; 22:10; 26:12; 27:3; 30:5.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?

Very well. Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Hebs: 4:2 RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

Erroneous links have been corrected. My sincerest apology for access error. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

So, was the gospel preached to Israel in wilderness?

Remember, death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14). Are you arguing that Law gave life? Or was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness?
RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:23, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

[2] [3] [4] --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

So, I'll take that as being affirmative. The gospel was indeed preached to Israel in the wilderness. What gospel was preached? the gospel of grace? the gospel of salvation? the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:25, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

It wasn't affirmative. If you had read the links I provided you would have seen the answer was not affirmative. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

I took it as affirmative when you re-posted my link to Hebrews 4:2 above, and a quotation from some Pascal teaching. Yes or no, Was the gospel preached to Israel in the wilderness? Use scripture to support your claims, not Pharisaical traditions. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Two clues:

Exodus 33:12: And Moses said unto the Lord, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me.

John 5:39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Also,

Luke 24:44 These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

So what are we to conclude? The Gospel of salvation by grace was preached to Israel in the wilderness before the Law of Moses was given. But they could not enter in because of disbelief. Because of rejection of God's grace, and God's salvation, they were given Law. And the Law cannot give life. The Law cannot save.

Salvation is by grace, through faith. Baptism (other than spiritual baptism), i.e. baptism in the flesh, had nothing to do with it.

If you want to dispute this, show me where Moses preached water baptism? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 21:24, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

[5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]
--Dataclarifier (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2019 (EDT)

The law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

So, you cited a bunch of texts from the Law of Moses; but that doesn't answer the question. You haven't provided anything to answer What is salvation?, or an understanding of grace. All you've done is post Mosaic Law and church doctrine.

That which is flesh is flesh. That which is spirit is spirit.

The natural man cannot understand the things of God.

You're proving the truth of the Word of God by evading a simple question, clinging to Law and church doctrine, and ignoring the gospel of grace. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 00:26, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

[19] [20] [21] [22] [23] [24]--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:40, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

More church doctrine, rendering the word of God to no effect.

IOWs, Moses set before the people a choice between God's Law and God's grace. The people chose Law (and their carcasses fell in the wilderness).

Rom. 7:10: And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.

Rom. 4:15: For the law brings wrath

Rom. 8:6: to be carnally minded [the natural man] is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom. 5:9 having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

You're just preaching wrath and law, not the gospel of life, peace, and grace. A gospel of works, 'which is no gospel at all (Gal. 1:7).

The early Apostles had this debate, Ye must be circumcised, the same as "ye must be physically baptized." Circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter (Rom. 2:29). RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:08, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

Oh, and there is no "going forth unto the nations" if you don't know what the gospel of salvation by grace is. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:12, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

The flesh profiteth nothing. Let me be more specific - baptism in the flesh profiteth nothing. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:04, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

Regenerative salvation by water and the Spirit: water baptism saves

Although I said above that I would not be heard again on this page, I thought it would be useful to the reader to have a summary of what the word of God says (see the article):

• Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
• Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
• Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
• This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 1 John 5:6
• There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 1 John 5:8
• Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
• With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
• The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
• Be baptized, and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
• Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
• Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
• Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
• God is not willing that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
• We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
• To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
• A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14

• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
• He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
  Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.
• He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9

The word of the Lord. Thanks be to God.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 18:25, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

• That which is flesh is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit
• God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth
• they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Water baptism is of the flesh. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:50, 29 October 2019 (EDT)

No, it is not. It is of God. The Bible itself says that God the Holy Spirit baptizes through water. Christian baptism is not of the flesh. It was established by Jesus Himself as necessary to enter the kingdom of God. Christian water baptism is the work of God who baptizes with water and the Spirit together to regenerate life. It is not man who baptizes, and water alone devoid of the sanctifying Spirit of God is not Christian baptism. By the regeneration (γεννεθή gennethe) of baptism of water and the Spirit a person is enabled by the Spirit of God to worship God in spirit and in truth and given the power to please God.

• Except a person be regenerated by water and the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" γεννεθή gennethe interlinear text
  from γεννάω gennao "procreate, regenerate".
• And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11
  "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19.
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
• For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27
• Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4.
• even when we were dead through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). Ephesians 2:5.
  (Grace χάριτί charity the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the faith πίστεως pisteos of man toward God. See Ephesians 2:8-10. Compare
  grace χάρις charis "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God and
  faith ριστις pistis "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for salvation, expressed by man.)
• one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:5-6.

According to the Bible Christian Baptism is a divinely ordained union of the operation "of water and the Spirit" together in God by the blood of Christ who alone sanctifies us, having cleansed us by the washing of water with the word. Christian Baptism is not a water ritual empty of the Spirit and totally separated from the blood of Christ. Food itself is made holy by prayer 1 Timothy 4:5. So water is made holy with the word. To speak of Christian Baptism as if it is merely a symbolic ritual of the flesh alone, utterly devoid of the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit Himself directly applying the saving blood of Christ to the soul, is not to speak of Christian Baptism at all.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth." True. God also is material flesh incarnate—"And you...he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and irreproachable before him, provided that you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven"–for "the word became flesh and dwelt among us", the Holy Spirit descended and remained upon him at baptism, and we have an altar from which those who serve the Jewish Tabernacle have no right to eat. (John 4:24; Colossians 1:21-23; John 1:14; Hebrews 13:10.)

The belief that God can not, does not, will not work his grace of salvation through the instrument of material water in union with the spiritual word of God by the power of the Holy Spirit is similar to the doctrine of Docetism which held that the purity of God the Word, the Son of the Father, could not personally defile himself by becoming incarnate human flesh, because it is impossible that pure spirit can ever interact with impure matter, "having flesh and bones". His appearance was only a symbolic vision, not the personal reality of Himself, so that it was impossible that Jesus could really shed his blood, die on the cross, be dead, and actually rise from the dead. God has no need whatever for any material means of effecting salvation. John refuted this in the first words of his Gospel (John 1:1-18). Credobaptism absolutely denies, repudiates and condemns the claim that God ever would or ever could work salvation directly through any kind of proper material ministry of Christian Baptism by water and the Spirit, which he himself ordained in John 3:3-5 and Matthew 28:19-20 ex opere operato. God waits helplessly for man to open the door of his heart by faith so that the Lord might come in to him. The doctrine of salvation by faith alone is totally dependent on the willing cooperation of man who must first know and understand and believe before God can save him. Infants cannot do that. By this reasoning salvation by faith is a work of man, and baptism is not the cause of spiritual regeneration because it is only a legal ordinance of water without the power of the Spirit.

Consistently, on the basis of sacred scripture, and because of scripture, the catholic and orthodox Christian Church east and west has condemned as a heresy the doctrine that baptism has no power from God, that Jesus did not establish the sacrament of baptism as the ordinary means of salvation by water and the Spirit, and that salvation is sola fide without any need for works of mercy, condemning also as a heresy the doctrine that eternal life once received by faith alone cannot be lost, rescinded, revoked, or forfeited by sin and apostasy, the doctrine of eternal security.

This entire Talk page, and the debate represented on it by myself and RobS above, is to my thinking an excellent companion article to Infant baptism. RobS has vigorously argued and persistently defended the doctrine of credobaptism and salvation sola fide. I count it a privilege to have contributed as clearly as possible without misrepresentation or distortion the Catholic doctrine of regenerative baptism unto everlasting life by the saving power of the blood of Jesus Christ alone, by reasoning based on the Bible. To all who read this page, thank you, and may God richly bless you and guide you into the fullness of truth. Amen. --Dataclarifier (talk) 04:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Were any Old Testament figures saved by grace or baptism?

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight

Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Next question: Was Job saved? Were Zachariah and Elisabeth saved? Were Simeon and Anna (Luke 2) saved? Was David saved? and Solomon (relates to the question of Eternal security, as well)? And a real tuff one, was Manassah saved?

We know Abraham was saved (Gal 3:6, Rom 4:3) long before there ever was a Law of Moses or doctrine of baptisms. We know righteous Abel was saved, as well, because he understood the necessity of a blood sacrifice.

So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures. But we see some could not enter in, because of disbelief (lack of faith).

The Law (or "the letter") killeth. Grace gives life. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 14:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

"So the gospel of salvation by grace has been preached since the beginning, long before the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ took place in fulfillment of the scriptures." You say they were already saved before any of this took place.
Either you have done away with the need for Christ by the credobaptist doctrine of salvation by faith alone sola fide, or you have confirmed the doctrine of "baptism of desire" by which all those "spirits in prison" were freed by the preaching of Christ himself because of their hope which waited (they were forced to wait) for his baptism of them in fulfillment of their desire for salvation 1 Peter 3:18-21. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1260

"Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity."

Hebrews 11:39-40 says most explicitly,

"And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

They had to wait, because they had not yet been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ and had not yet been born again of water and the Spirit.
--Dataclarifier (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Was Abraham saved?

Rom 4: 1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness, etc.

Cite scripture for your response, not church tradition, church doctrine, Catholic catechism, or any other teaching of man. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:12, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

I did cite scripture. My response each time was solidly based on scripture. Church doctrine supports scripture. You reject fundamental parts of the Bible and twist its meaning for the sake of your credobaptist tradition, "a tradition of men", which the vast body of all Christianity in the sixteenth century, solidly based on scripture (on the whole context of the entire Bible), denounced as a Satanic heresy based on violation of the Bible itself. Cafeteria Christianity#Proof texts. And I will not reject Christian doctrine based for over sixteen centuries on the whole context of the Bible and the "mind of Christ" in the sensus fidelium, sensus plenior, sensus Christianorum in all of the passages of the Bible I have cited all down through this page. I am heedful of the warning of Peter 1 Peter 3:15-18. However much you press me to do so, I will not deny Christ. --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

You haven't answered the question: Was Abraham saved? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:15, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

What have we learned from our father, Abraham?

Abraham was instructed to take his son, thine only son, and kill him. Not wavering in faith, Abraham never doubted that God would resurrect him somehow to fulfill God's promise to multiply Abraham's seed as the stars of the sky. Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned (or imputed) unto him as righteousness.

Rom 5: 1 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2 through whom also we have the access by the faith into this grace in which we have stood

Where was Abraham ever baptized? before the law of baptisms was ever was given (Leviticus, and elsewhere)? Abraham was circumcised, but circumcision is of the heart, not of the flesh. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:39, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Exodus chapter 33

1 Cor. 10:4 all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Exodus 33: And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight

Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:49, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

God also told Moses, "My face you shall not see, for no one can see my face and live" (Exodus 33:18-23). Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel went up on the mountain, and they did see the God of Israel up on the top of the peak, but only from a distance, not up close (Exodus 24:9-11). Abuse of the statement that Moses talked with God "face to face" has been competently answered by qualified biblical scholars as a Semitic expression of intimate friendship of communion, not a pre-incarnate appearance of Jesus face to face, nor a direct visual encounter of the Beatific vision. These scholars also explain that the "gospel" preached to Israel in the wilderness of Sanai was not the Christian revelation, but the good news in the law revealed to Moses explaining the rewards of obedience "if you obey my word". That message included the promise of a Prophet to come.
In answer to the challenge of reconciling Moses and John – Take a look at the commentaries on Deuteronomy 5:4 "The LORD spoke with you face to face at the mountain, out of the midst of fire." Their answer is mine also. Moses beheld the presence of the Lord, and spoke with Him "face to face", but he did not see the face of God. The scholars have explained all this. I agree with them. The challenge to reconcile Moses and John has been met and answered already. Their response is my response as well. This makes me and them "competent to explain" the scriptures according to "the mind of Christ".

That's your response?

• Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:58, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

God didn't mean what he said, or he was too stupid to clarify himself. He needed human scholars and teachers to set it straight, huh? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

He said, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." It is you who make the word of God of no effect through your credobaptist tradition. That is why credobaptists in the sixteenth century were condemned by Protestants and Catholics for abuse of the scriptures. Documented anathemas against credobaptism go all the way back to the 3rd century. And Protestants agreed.

Conservative Christian historians and apologists are mindful of this statement by John Eck addressed to Martin Luther, in the year 1521:

"...there is no one of the heresies which have torn the bosom of the church, which has not derived its origin from the various interpretation of the Scripture. The Bible itself is the arsenal whence each innovator has drawn his deceptive arguments. It was with biblical texts that Pelagius and Arius maintained their doctrines. Arius, for instance, found the negation of the eternity of the Word—an eternity which you admit, in this verse of the New Testament—Joseph knew not his wife till she had brought forth her first-born son; and he said, in the same way that you say, that this passage enchained him. When the fathers of the council of Constance condemned this proposition of John Huss—The church of Jesus Christ is only the community of the elect, they condemned an error; for the church, like a good mother, embraces within her arms all who bear the name of Christian, all who are called to enjoy the celestial beatitude."

(Compare the article on Hypocrites.) --Dataclarifier (talk) 16:59, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Did God speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend (Martin Luther has nothing to do with this question). The answer is a simple 'yes' or 'no'.

The next question is: Are there contradictions in the bible? Is the bible inviolate? (Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you. Your response is entirely dependent on your faith). RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:11, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

The Pentecostal article below is a rebuttal of your position, and is presented here as my response. Jesus saved many people without their faith. That includes babies, Old Testament saints, and all pagans who never had opportunity to hear the Gospel, who would have accepted baptism by water and the Spirit if they had known of its necessity.

"Here, scholars, church teaching, and church tradition can't help you." Devout scholars, church teaching, and church tradition do help. But you refuse to accept it (John 10:25-26). Your refusal is a clear example of classic Confirmation bias. All of the centuries-old consistent understanding of the Bible by all of Christendom based on the Bible is held in contempt by you. Even when presented with an abundance of scripture alone which demolishes the house of credobaptist doctrine as clearly opposed to the Bible, you reject it. Matthew 23:38. I had thought that you were a person of honest Christian integrity dedicated to the truth of the Bible. From the way you worded some of your answers I believe that you actually refused on principle to read the authoritative Bible texts and sources linked for immediate access which contradict credobaptism. Look at the article on Enmity.
Some of the people who read this page when I showed it to them said you were being sarcastic, and are someone who always has to have the "last word" no matter what is said. They told me I was wasting all my time and energy on this page in a pointless exercise of unending futility. They said if you ever change your mind, it won't be because of me. They said just leave it to the Lord and he will deal with you.
I have been patient with you, and firm. I am also grateful. Because of your challenges I have carefully re-read the Bible like the long-ago Beroeans of Acts 17:11, and the fruit of all this is that I have gained a much deeper insight to what it was like for Jesus to debate with the scribes and Sadducees and Pharisees who refused to listen to him even when he cited the scriptures. And I have an even deeper and more loving appreciation of Him as a true man, both fully human and fully God. The result of this research was the abundance of Bible texts cited in context all down this page which clearly support the doctrine of regenerative baptism against credobaptism "salvation by faith alone sola fide". I had constant recourse to the help of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance with its Hebrew and Greek dictionaries of the Old and New Testaments. I will have no more to do with you, as Paul advised Titus 3:10. --Dataclarifier (talk) 18:17, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

So, I'm taking your response to mean (a) the bible has contradictions, and (b) the bible is not inviolate.

Is that correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

I never once used the term "credobaptism". The word does not appear anywhere in the bible, as I understand and/or are familiar with it (look it up in Strong's if you don't believe me). It is entirely your invention in this discussion. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:43, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Lastly, your posting below is simply more church doctrine from somewhere irrelevant to this discussion. Spamming the page has not helped any of your arguments; it's more reminiscent of Christ's warnings about other Pharisaical teachings: they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 18:51, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

'Let your answers be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.' (Matt 5:37) - affirming what is, and what is not, the Word of God. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 19:38, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

One final comment: God is not an intellectual exercise.

• He catcheth the crafty in their craftiness
• I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

I learned from Catholic catechism that 7 years of age is the "age of reason;" by 10 I had it figured out and left the church. God's teaching must be simple enough for a child to understand.

I can appreciate the teaching of the Catholic church. At the age of 8, as an altar boy, I recall a high mass on Easter Sunday, where me, the priest, and 3 other altar boys sat down at the beginning of the mass. I wanted to rise up and perform the service, but the priest signaled to me to remain seated. The Gospel reading that day was from Hebrews, chapter 10:12 stood out to emphasize the point and symbolism: "when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down". All else is extraneous. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. (Heb 4:10). "It is finished (John 19:39). I'm grateful to the Catholic church for having taught me God's word, but all the calisthenics and hand-washing is extraneous. The message is simple. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 00:45, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

Back to Exodus 33 (I love this chapter). So, what is the Gospel? Again, it must be simple enough for a child to understand. For expedience sake, I'm going to thumbnail and encapsulate it in John 15:13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends

Disclaimer: we all know it's much more but for expedience sake I'm using this verse.

Now, we have to back up momentarily to Exodus 32 (verse 10-32 for complete context). Verse 31-32 Moses says Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

This is the Spirit of Christ speaking. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

"The Church cannot save" is not in the Bible; "Baptism does not save" is not in the Bible; "Born again by faith" is not in the Bible

• There are 80 listings in Strong's under CHURCH έκκλησία ekklesia.
  There is in the New Testament of the Bible no direct statement in any form anywhere that explicitly states that the Church cannot save (you, anyone), that salvation is not in the Church, or that membership in the Church cannot save (you, anyone).
  A search online at Topical Bible: church and Topical Bible: Church: Membership In does not produce any passages under the key words "church" or "church membership" that teach any form of the doctrine that the Church cannot save, as repeatedly and persistently asserted here on this page.
  You won't find it. I've looked.
  Look at 100 Bible Verses about Church Membership.
  It may be that what is meant in reality by the assertion that membership in a church cannot save is that church membership alone cannot guarantee salvation. The Catholic Church agrees. According to Catholic doctrine it is possible to lose the saving grace of one's baptismal salvation through loss of faith or by falling away from Christ into apostasy away from the body of the Church, which is his body, the temple of the Spirit. But it can be restored, through the Sacrament of Penance and Reconciliation (Confession) to a member of the Church having the ministry of reconciliation (2 Corinthians 5:18-20).

Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "no church can save" or that "salvation is not from the church" or "salvation is not found in the church (any church)" or that "the church cannot save you" (and never did) or that "church membership cannot save" (you, anyone). The passage must have the word "church" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for salvation on this page.

• There are 22 listings in Strong's under BAPTISM βάπτισμα baptisma.
  There is in the New Testament of the Bible no direct statement in any form anywhere that explicitly states that Baptism does not or cannot save (you, anyone).
  A search online at Topical Bible: baptism and Topical Bible: water baptism does not produce any passages under the key words "baptism" or "water baptism" that teach any form of the doctrine that baptism does not regenerate and does not save (us, you, anyone) now, as repeatedly and persistently asserted here on this page.
  You won't find it. I've looked.
  Look at 100 Bible Verses about Baptism and 100 Bible Verses about Unsaved.

Cite chapter and verse in the New Testament that says explicitly that "baptism does not save" (us, you, anyone) "now" or that "baptism cannot save you" (us, anyone) and never has, and never did or that "salvation is not through baptism" or that " membership in the body of Christ by baptism into Christ cannot save" (us, you, anyone) or that "baptism is not for infants and babies" or that "babies should not be baptized until they can confess faith in Jesus". The passage must have the key word "baptism" as used frequently in denials of its necessity for salvation on this page, and in the case of babies "infant baptism" or "baptized infants" together with the key words "must not", "cannot", "forbidden", "false", "unnecessary".

• The phrase "born again by faith in the word of God", "born again by faith in the Lord", "born again by faith", is not found in the New Testament.
  Look at 100 Bible Verses about Being Born Again (openbible.info).
  Being saved by faith is proclaimed.
  Being born of God is proclaimed.
  Being born by the washing of regeneration is proclaimed.
  Being saved by the blood of Christ is proclaimed.
  But no passage of scripture has the explicit phrase "born by faith" or "born again by faith". The term "born again" is not found together with the term "faith" in any text of the Bible. The term "born again" is not found together with the term "saved" in any passage of the Bible.

• See the main page of this article under "Regenerate" in John 3:3-5: Greek γεννηθή gennethe. The Greek text of the New Testament itself teaches regenerative baptism, which has been absolutely denied on this page by the frequent and persistent assertion that baptism is unnecessary for salvation and does not save because it opposes salvation by faith alone sola fide. The plain and obvious reality of γεννηθή gennethe as spiritual regeneration of the soul from death to life is directly asserted as truth without any recourse to Church doctrine or tradition or academic scholarship and exegesis. It's solely what the Bible says, plain and simple. See the interlinear text of John 3:3 and John 3:4 and John 3:5. Anyone who says Jesus is wrong, by actually saying γεννηθή gennethe by water and the Spirit is not regeneration unto life, opposes the word of the Lord. Whether knowingly or unknowingly doing so makes no difference. It is a falsehood. Denial contradicts the Bible and puts no faith in Jesus' word as truth. That alone condemns as not of God the point of view that "the washing of water with the word" Ephesians 5:26, baptism with water consecrated by the word of God, can not, does not, never has, and never will save by regeneration unto eternal life, by joining the baptized to the very body of Jesus Christ himself as a living member of his body in whom is no sin.

• Bring forth the scripture that explicitly states "baptism does not save, baptism cannot save", "the Church does not save, the Church cannot save", and "membership in the Church does not save", or that "membership in the Church eternally assures salvation" (which Catholic doctrine also rejects)—Chapter and verse, with words "church", "membership", "baptism" (cannot, does not) "save", "salvation". Show the Bible passage that explicitly says in any form "born again by faith." (You can't. I know, because I looked, and tried to find it. It can't be found. It's not in the Bible.)

If you cannot find such passages in the Bible to support the assertions made here about salvation by faith alone—salvation without the necessity of baptismal rebirth by water and the Spirit with the word of God and "working out your own salvation" by sustaining Corporal and spiritual works of mercy (Philippians 2:12-13; Ephesians 2:8-10)—if you cannot find such passages in the Bible, then it is undeniable proof that the doctrine you have been defending here on this page is not of God. It's not in the Bible. If not, then it either comes from the flesh alone, or from some other place, not from God. In any case it absolutely opposes the truth of the Gospel of salvation through γεννηθή gennethe regeneration by water and the Spirit with the word of God and is rightly condemned as a false gospel teaching "another Jesus" qualifying for Paul's anathema. Maranatha (2 Corinthians 11:4; 1 Corinthians 16:22). It is a rejection of the obedience that Jesus commanded in Matthew 18:15-20, the obedience of faith in the Church he built, his body and the temple of the Holy Spirit, the church gathered in the name of the Lord.
James 5:20.

--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

More spam. Answer a simple question: Was Abraham saved? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 23:48, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Let Us Reason Ministries - a Pentecostal refutation of sola fide - "Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith?"

Introduction to Pentecostal article reproduced below

– The article below is an outstanding response to the credobaptist doctrine of "believer's baptism" as the only way of salvation. We ourselves in our own helpless weakness do not even know how to pray, like helpless infants in their weakness who have no faith (see Helpless babies and sinners). We are all like newborn babies who need the Holy Spirit to intercede for us in the regenerative baptism of water and the Spirit unto new life. "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit intercedes for us with sighs and groanings too deep for words."

The following Pentecostal article is here quoted in full from Let Us Reason Ministries (letusreason.org)
--Dataclarifier (talk) 19:34, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

Let Us Reason Ministries

“

Cults Escaping the Cult Apologetics Current Trends Bible Doctrines Bible Explanations Ecumenism Emergent church Prophecy Latter Rain Word Faith Popular Teachers Pentecostal Issues Trinity / Deity World Religions New Age Movement Book Reviews Testimonies For printing our articles please copy the web page by highlighting the text first - then click copy in the browser- paste the article into a word program on your computer. When the text is transferred into word, click to save or print. Did Jesus or the apostles heal everyone because of their faith? We hear many teach that every time Jesus healed a person he said "According to YOUR faith, be it unto you," as if God always waits to enact His miraculous power by our faith. But this is not accurate, and one simply has to read all the Scriptures on healing and not focus on certain ones to understand this. I believe in God's supernatural healing , Our God is one who does miracles. Today we hear that it only takes faith for the Lord to answer our prayer.What If one is not healed by faith, does it means they are a failure, because they did not exercise the faith that God needed in order to react. Jesus When Jesus was physically on earth he healed everyone that asked Him, But he also healed those who did not ask Him. Luke 6:19: “And the whole multitude sought to touch Him, for power went out from Him and healed them all.” Luke 9:11: “But when the multitudes knew it, they followed Him; and He received them and spoke to them about the kingdom of God, and healed those who had need of healing.” Yet when we look carefully Jesus healed as many people that had no faith, than did. Sometimes he required faith, other times he did not. They were healed by His grace and mercy because of His love and most importantly to show the people who He is. Matt 14:14 :“And when Jesus went out He saw a great multitude; and He was moved with compassion for them, and healed their sick.” So many brought friends and loved ones out to be healed. Matt 15:30:: “Then great multitudes came to Him, having with them the lame, blind, mute, maimed, and many others; and they laid them down at Jesus' feet, and He healed them.” Healings were done in numerous ways. There were times Jesus responded to the faith of another person who asked on behalf of the one who needed healing. Matt. 8:5-10 It was the faith of the centurion that healed his own servant. If we apply this today those who have enough faith for their own healing can apply it to everyone else to be healed. Mk.5:35-43 The daughter of Jairus was healed from the fathers faith and asking. The paralytic was carried by his friends to Jesus and “When Jesus saw their faith” (for their friend) He pronounced his sins forgiven first and then healed him (Mark 2:2-12). Lk.17:11-19 Jesus healed all 10 lepers but only one obeyed showing that he was the only one to possess true saving faith. Jesus healed people from the ultimate sickness of sin, death. In Jn.11 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, certainly it wasn’t Lazarus’ faith that raised himself, he was dead, neither did anyone else believe it could occur then. It was done so they could believe he was their Messiah (also Lk. 8:54). Other examples are in John 18:10, when Peter cut of the ear of Malchus, Jesus healed him without any faith from anyone. Lk.8:26-39 The demoniac of Gadarene was healed without asking before he was capable of expressing his faith. The Bible records Jesus doing just as many miracles without anyone exercising faith then with their faith. Jesus performed miracles with disbelief among the disciples. Of the 35 miracles recorded in the Gospel accounts the faith of the recipient is exercised in only 10 of the accounts. Healing of the lame man (Jn.5:1-9) the cleansing of a leper (Mt.8:2-4) healing a mans withered hand (Mt.9:2-8) the healing of the man born blind (Jn.9:1-7) healing the blindness of Bartemaeus (Mt.20:29-34) The women who had a blood flow (Mt.9:20-22; Mk.5:24-34) Peter who walked on water to Jesus (Mt.14:24-33) the miraculous catching of the fish (Lk.5:1-11) and the second miraculous catch (Jn.21:1-11) The cleansing of the 10 lepers of which only one had faith (Lk.17:11-19). Jesus did not indiscriminately heal ALL the people ALL of the time, but It was those God willed to be healed that were healed. While he required faith for some he did not require it for all. In John 5:1-15: (v.3) multitudes were gathered at the pool of Bethsaida to be healed, Jesus did not call everyone forward, He picked only one person to be healed, a blind and lame man. Jesus initiated a conversation and asked the man at the pool of Bethsaida if he wanted to be made well. His answer was that there was no one to carry him to the pool, believing that if he entered the water he would be healed. The man with the infirmity was healed by God’s grace. He had no faith in Jesus; he didn’t even know it was Jesus who healed him until later (v.12-13). In John 9 we find a blind man who did not ask to be healed, but was picked to be healed out of many others. This also was God’s grace. When Jesus saw the man blind from birth responding to His disciples’ inquiry, He healed him without his asking. It was not about their faith as much as it is about His will. Everyone Jesus WILLED to be healed was healed, 100%. This is the basis for a healing from a biblical frame of reference. He did not only heal those who had faith, He often picked those who had no faith. Matt 13:13-15: "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. "And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, and seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, so that I should heal them.' Because they did not understand Jesus did not heal them. What did they not understand? His teaching and who He was, they did not repent. True supernatural healings do not always require faith it’s bestowed in mercy by the providence of God. The healings that are from God are always 100% successful, without any relapses, and are almost always immediate. False and psychological healings require physical contact, they can have relapses, and do not heal organic disorders and are not usually immediate. “Faith healers” claim you must keep your faith for your healing or the devil will come and steal it. Nowhere are God's healings spoken of in this way. Real miracles are under God's control with or without the use of man; false miracles always come by mans hands, and are done by their own dictates. The Bible records Jesus doing many miracles in the absence of anyone exercising faith than with faith present. This is very significant considering the current teaching of faith being necessary for ones healing. The Apostles healing ministry After Jesus physically left earth and the apostles were leaders of the church, they were commissioned with the gospel and authority to do as Jesus did. Acts 3:2-6: “And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms from those who entered the temple; who, seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple, asked for alms. And fixing his eyes on him, with John, Peter said, "Look at us." So he gave them his attention, expecting to receive something from them. Then Peter said, "Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk." The man at the Gate beautiful was not seeking healing but money, he had no faith. John and Peter might of walked by this man a number of times to the temple but on this certain day they were moved to raise him up from his sick bed. Miracles through the apostles became widespread outside of Israel to the Gentiles. In 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. Lack of Faith was not the problem. 2 Timothy 4:20 says: “Trophemus I left in Miletus sick.” Trophemus a companion of Paul was left as Paul went on ministering, he did not encourage him to have faith to be healed. In Philippians 2:26, 30 mentions Epaphroditus as a devoted servant of the Lord; he became sick and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see their prayers were answered by God’s will and in his timing. All Christians should pray for God to heal when it is needed. In 2 Corinthians 12:9-10 Paul had a thorn in the flesh In Vv.9-10 Paul laments “Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” God denied Paul to be healed for a reason. So to say everyone must be healed because of what Jesus did on the cross is wrong, the gospel is primarily about forgiveness of sin. There is now a teaching inside the church that our cup of communion heals. Jesus said “This is My blood...which is shed for many for the remission of sins” (Matthew 26:28). Notice He said for sin. This is an ordinance that physically is to remind us of the actual crucifixion event. We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from. Now the question arises: “since sickness is from sin,” if our sin is forgiven we should not be sick? The Bible does not teach we have or can obtain sinless perfection in this life, so why should we think we would be free of sicknesses? Even death is from sin -- if we believe communion heals absolutely then those who take it would never physically die. We die because we are not cured physically from our sickness of sin until the day of resurrection. We are currently forgiven and cleansed by the blood in a legal sense but not in a completed physical sense. This is reserved for the day of our resurrection when corruptible will become incorruptible. It is only then sin will be dealt the deathblow and we will live forever in an immortal physical body. We are presently clothed in Christ’s righteousness because we have faith in him who fulfilled the law, and is our substitute. One day we will personally be made righteous and what He accomplished will be fully applied to our body, not just our spirit. Rom.8:15 we live in a fallen world until the time of restoration. When one teaches all must be healed now they must ignore the context of the greater portion of Scripture. The faith teachers are not dividing the word correctly. They teach by faith we can today obtain everything scripture says. They apply blessings what will only take place millennial to us now. Divine health so that you are never to be sick is not the teaching of Scripture; it is divine healing that is taught, it is in God’s hand when and how one would be healed. Real faith trusts him, is patient and perserveres. Copyright (c) 2012 No portion of this site is to be copied or used unless kept in its original format in the way it appears. Articles can be reproduced in portions for ones personal use, any other use is to have the permission of the author first. Thank You.

”

What can I say? Someone, I don't know who, has salvation confused with physical healing. Oh boy, talk about the road of deception.... RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 21:29, 30 October 2019 (EDT)

You didn't read it. It says

We are told it is “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin” (1 John 1:7). The Bible states that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin, not healing for sickness. Revelation 1:5: “To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood.” It is always our sin we are promised to be healed from.

--Dataclarifier (talk) 00:35, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

So? I don't quite follow how you connect the dots between this being either some affirmation or refutation of something or other. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 01:14, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

.....Still waiting to hear how you are going to connect the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism.... RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:30, 31 October 2019 (EDT)

"Attention all hands: Now hear this!"
"All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me." Matthew 28:18
"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as the Savior of the world." 1 John 4:16.
"As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." John 20:21. "If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven." John 20:23.
"I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Mt 16:18-19
"if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 18:17b-18
"Be subject to every human institution" 1 Peter 2:13.
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment." Romans 13:1-3.
"So then brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15.
"Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you." Hebrews 13:17.
"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Galatians 1:6-9.
"Children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us." 1 John 2:18-19
"And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you." John 14:16-17
"I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you." John 16:12-14].
I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures above and based on the Bible I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. It was the only Church not founded by people who disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left.
It is the authoritative binding doctrine of the established Christian Church that has always connected the dots between Jesus' healing miracles and infant baptism and teaches to this day that "Baptism … now saves you" 1 Peter 3:21.
I accept the doctrine and interpretation of the established binding authority of the apostolic tradition of the Christian Church in connecting them.
Read the new Section below. "The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between salvation and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic"
--Dataclarifier (talk) 07:57, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

I think you nailed it right there, which you've said twice now. Are you accepting Christ's teaching or Church teaching? Are you looking to Christ for salvation or membership in a body? Sorry to dig in so personal, but churches, church membership, and church teaching do not save. Only Christ saves. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:38, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Gal 1:6-9

• I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel—not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

So, you appear to be deserting the gospel of grace. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 11:56, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

By grace are ye saved, through faith, not of works.

If we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

It ain't rocket science, and spamming the page to hide your embarrassment don't help. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:01, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Like Paul, I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christ.
I was taught as a Baptist to be faithful to the Bible as the Word of God. As a faithful Baptist heeding all the scriptures I have cited above, and based on the Bible alone sola scriptura, I obeyed and accepted that the Catholic Church had to be the one true Church. "Catholic" means universal, for all people of all places in every time to the day of judgment. It was the only Church not founded by people who had disobeyed those over them, and left and went out from them, and taught a doctrine different from the gospel they had been taught by the Church that they left, and denied that the Holy Spirit had remained for ever with the leadership of that Church, saying that Christ who remained to the end of the world had not remained, saying that He had departed and was no longer with that Church. The Catholic Church was founded by Jesus Christ Himself as His Bride, remaining with her to the end of the world as the vessel and channel of the grace of God given to the whole world as the body of Christ Himself, sent as He was sent, as the Savior of the world, baptizing. The Church is the "Temple of the Spirit", "built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling-place of God in the Spirit" (1 Peter 2:4-5; 1 Corinthians 3:16-17; Ephesians 2:19-22). "He cannot deny himself" (2 Timothy 2:11-13). To depart from the Church is deserting the gospel of grace. The grace of salvation comes from Christ alone through the Catholic Church he founded and sent out into the whole world as "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), "that through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 3:10). --Dataclarifier (talk) 12:44, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

If you have to work to earn grace, it ain't grace. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:05, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Church membership is not salvation. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:09, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Grace is bestowed by Christ through his body the Church and those baptized into him are saved. The Catholic Church saves as the one sent by God. The Church saves because Jesus is in her as her head and the Holy Spirit dwells in her as the temple of God and it is he who sanctifies her and is the source of salvation, because God is in her at work in her members as members of the body of Christ himself, both to will and to work for his good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13). --Dataclarifier (talk) 13:12, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Look, spamming the page with pious sounding rhetoric saves no one. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:19, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

The church saves? I don't think even Catholic doctrine teaches that. You're bordering on speaking anathema. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 13:21, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Amputating a few words from Philippians doesn't help you.

Let's look at the context from which you abuse Phillipians:

• 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus

We already discussed what it means to have the mind of Christ - that part you left out. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:39, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism - Connecting the Dots between salvation and infant baptism - Protestant and Catholic

The teaching of Scripture

"When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism." —James W. Scott, The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

Protestant

The Biblical Basis for Infant Baptism

Many evangelical, Bible-believing Christians believe that baptism should be reserved for those who make a profession of faith. They point to the clear teaching in the Bible that converts should be baptized (see, for example, Matt. 28:19; Acts 2:37–38; 8:12; 18:8). The baptism warranted in the Bible by precept and example, they say, is believer’s baptism.

But wait a minute! The ordinary practice in baptistic churches has no more direct biblical support than the practice in churches that baptize infants. In both groups of churches, those who are converted from outside the church are baptized as new believers. That kind of “believers’ baptism” is not at issue. What is at issue is what to do with those who are born and raised within the church. Should they be baptized as infants or should their baptism be withheld until they make their own profession of faith?

Neither practice has explicit biblical support. There is no example of anyone born to Christian parents being baptized in the New Testament at any age, and no precept addresses their specific situation. The time and circumstances that are appropriate for baptizing such children must be inferred from general biblical teaching concerning baptism.

Let us once and for all disabuse ourselves of the notion that what goes on in baptistic churches has direct biblical warrant. It is only inferred from Scripture, as is our practice. (The question of immersion—the “mode” of baptism—is treated in an earlier article and will not be discussed here, though it is equally important in baptistic thinking.)

The Baptistic View of Baptism

Those who advocate believer’s baptism insist that infant baptism is not baptism at all (even if the infant is immersed). This is because they have a different understanding of baptism. In their view, baptism is principally a testimony given by the person baptized, first in word and then symbolically in water. Since an infant cannot give a testimony, a genuine infant baptism is an impossibility. However, the Bible nowhere portrays baptism as the testimony of the person baptized. Passages that link faith to baptism (such as Acts 8:12; 18:8) simply show that faith, publicly professed, is a necessary condition for baptism. Indeed, it is appropriate to include a statement of faith in the baptismal ceremony. However, a baptism itself (the application of water, with accompanying words) is a statement by God (through the church) to and about the person being baptized, not a statement by that person. The person baptized is the recipient of baptism from a minister of Jesus Christ, acting in his name (Matt. 28:18–20; cf. Acts 2:37–42; 8:16; 35–38).

Once we recognize that faith is a condition for baptism, and that baptism itself is not a demonstration of faith by the person baptized, the question can be asked, Whose faith is required? As we look now at the relevant biblical teaching, we will see that the faith of parents fully suffices for the baptism of their children.

Baptism and Discipleship

When Jesus instituted Christian baptism, he instructed his disciples to “make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them ... [and] teaching them to observe all that I commanded you” (Matt. 28:19–20). Baptism, then, begins the discipling process, which continues throughout one’s life. Everyone recognizes that the children of believers should be taught to observe the commandments of Jesus (see Eph. 6:1–3, 4). But this passage indicates that they should be baptized first.

On the Day of Pentecost, those who were converted by the preaching of Peter “were baptized; and there were added [to the church] that day about three thousand souls” (Acts 2:41). They then received instruction “in the apostles’ teaching” and participated fully in the life of the church (vs. 42). Again we see that baptism marks one’s entrance into the church, into the fellowship of the saints. But what about the children of these converts? Were they baptized and included in the church fellowship? Baptists want to leave children unbaptized but include them in the life of the church, but that is not the biblical pattern.

Children of Abraham

In order to understand the proper place of children in the church, it is necessary to understand that the church consists of those who have received the promise of spiritual blessing that was originally given to Abraham. The third chapter of Galatians spells this out carefully, concluding, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise” (Gal. 3:29). This means that the covenant that God made with Abraham remains in effect today (in its “new covenant” form, of course). Otherwise, we could not be Abraham’s offspring, receiving what was promised to him and his descendants. The Abrahamic covenant (Gen. 12:1–3; 15:1–7; 17:1–14) was confirmed to his son Isaac (Gen. 26:1–5, 23–24) and his grandson Jacob (Gen. 28:10–15; cf. 48:15–16; 50:24). It continued with the nation of Israel (Ex. 2:24; 6:2–8), for whom the Law of Moses was added (as the Mosaic or “old” covenant) until the time of Christ (Gal. 3:17–19), in whom the promises given to Abraham were fulfilled (vss. 16, 22–28).

After Abraham exercised faith in God’s covenant promises (Gen. 15:6), the Lord added the rite of circumcision to the covenant arrangement (Gen. 17:9–14). He received “the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he [already] had while uncircumcised” (Rom. 4:11). Because Abraham was righteous (his sins were forgiven) as the result of his faith, he was circumcised as a sign given by God that sealed that righteousness. Physical, outward circumcision signified spiritual, inward cleansing of the heart (Ezek. 44:7; Rom. 2:28–29), a spiritual reality for Abraham and all his true, believing descendants.

Not only Abraham, but all males in his household, were to be circumcised. Henceforth, all males were to be circumcised as eight-day-old infants, throughout the generations of the covenant community (Gen. 17:12–13). Circumcision marked one’s entrance into the covenant community; without it, one was to be “cut off from his people” (vs. 14).

This was God’s way of signifying that the promises given to faithful Abraham extended also to his children (and anyone else who came under and accepted his authority). Some of those, like his son Ishmael, left the covenant community and renounced the faith of Abraham. Others in Israel’s sorry history remained in the covenant community, but did not share the faith of Abraham. A remnant, however, by the grace of God, remained faithful.

A New Covenant Sign

Into the circumcised community was born Jesus, in whom the promise of spiritual blessing for all peoples of the world would be fulfilled (Gal. 3:8–9, 14). The line of physical descent from Abraham reached its climax in the person of Jesus (vss. 16, 19). After him, only spiritual descent mattered (vss. 7–9, 25–26). Converts would no longer be incorporated into the nation of Israel.

Consequently, a covenant sign that focused on physical descent through the male line was no longer appropriate. A new sign of the covenant was needed—one that all people, whether Jew or Gentile, male or female, could receive. As we have seen, water baptism was instituted by Jesus as the new sign of entrance into the community of faith. Essentially, then, baptism replaced circumcision.

The change from circumcision to baptism is reflected in Acts 8:12, where we read that Samaritans were being baptized, “men and women alike.” There is no reason to point out that people of both genders were now receiving the sign of the covenant, except to contrast it with the old sign of the covenant. Implied in this contrast is the fact that baptism had replaced circumcision.

Spiritual Circumcision

There were Judaizers in the church who wanted Gentile converts to be circumcised and to follow the whole Mosaic law. But in various epistles, Paul insisted that Christians not only had nothing to gain from circumcision and Judaism, but actually had everything to lose! Writing to the Colossians, he declared that Christians were complete in Christ and should not look to Judaism or any other religion to supplement their faith (Col. 2:8–23). His statements specifically about circumcision and baptism (vss. 11–12) deserve close attention.

Christians have no need for physical circumcision, Paul indicates, because “in Him”—that is, as part of their spiritual union with Christ—they have already been “circumcised with a circumcision made without hands” (vs. 11). That is, they have already received that inward circumcision, that spiritual cleansing of the heart, that is effected by the Holy Spirit. In Romans 2:28–29, Paul refers to this as inward circumcision, “which is of the heart, by the Spirit.”

This spiritual circumcision, Paul continues, consists of “the removal of the body of the flesh” (Col. 2:11). But what is “the body of the flesh”? An important textual variant here reads “the body of the sins of the flesh” (NKJV). In either case, another contrast with circumcision is in view. Physical circumcision removes a small piece of flesh. But spiritual circumcision, figuratively speaking, removes or puts off the whole body of sinful flesh, that is, “our old self,” “our body of sin” that has been “done away with” (Rom. 6:6). When the Spirit cleanses the heart, the whole weight of sin is removed, and the sinful flesh is renounced.

This spiritual cleansing, Paul continues, is effected by “the circumcision of Christ” (Col. 2:11). Since this verse has all along been speaking of the spiritual experience of the sinner, “the circumcision of Christ” must likewise be something in Christian experience, not something in the life of Jesus (i.e., his death, as baptistic writers suppose). It is the spiritual circumcising that belongs to Christ—“the circumcision done by Christ” (NIV) or simply “Christian circumcision.” The Judaizers were insisting on the physical circumcision set forth in the Law of Moses; Paul was upholding the spiritual circumcision of Christ.

Paul’s opponents might well have agreed that an inward cleansing was in order. However, they would have insisted that this be signified by physical circumcision. But Paul indicates that that is not necessary, for the Christian has already been “buried with Him” [that is, Christ] in baptism (Col. 2:12; cf. Rom. 6:4–5). Physical circumcision has nothing to add. A new sign, baptism, has been received.

Finally, Christians have been “raised up with Him through faith in the working of God” (Col. 2:12). “We have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead ... we too might walk in newness of life” (Rom. 6:4). What do the Judaizers have to offer in comparison with that? We are already complete in Christ (Col. 2:10)!

It is part of the teaching of Colossians 2:11–12, then, that baptism has replaced circumcision for the covenant community. The Abrahamic covenant is fulfilled in the new covenant, and circumcision has been replaced by baptism as the sign and seal of the righteousness of faith.

Children in the Church

Under the Abrahamic covenant, those who were born within the covenant community received the sign of the covenant as infants. Because the Abrahamic covenant remains in effect, but with the sign of it having been changed, it follows that those who are born within the covenant community should be baptized as infants, just as they were formerly circumcised as infants. They should be baptized at the start of the discipling process, as outlined by Jesus.

If there are any doubts as to the “fitness” of infants to be raised as disciples of Jesus, he himself dispelled them. When children were brought to Jesus by their parents for his blessing, the disciples tried to brush them aside (Mark 10:13–16). But Jesus said, “Permit the children to come to Me ... for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.” These children included babies (Luke 18:15); Jesus “took them in His arms and began blessing them” (Mark 10:16).

Some would say that Jesus welcomed them just to teach adults a lesson (see Luke 18:17). But if infants do not qualify for the kingdom of God, then how can adults qualify by being like them? There is no lesson for adults to learn unless Jesus welcomes the infants of believers into his kingdom. That kingdom, today, is essentially the church (Matt. 16:18–19). Since people are visibly received into the church by baptism, it follows that infants are to be received into the kingdom of God by baptism.

Faith and Baptism

As we have seen, circumcision under the Abrahamic covenant was applied to infants on the basis of parental faith (Gen. 17; Rom. 4:11). Since we today are part of that covenant through faith in Christ, the new sign of the covenant, water baptism, should likewise be applied to infants on the basis of parental faith.

That theological conclusion is confirmed by the accounts in the book of Acts which reveal that whole households were commonly baptized on the basis of the faith of the head of the household. These accounts are examined in some detail in the article “Saving Faith and Infant Baptism,” in the April 1992 issue of New Horizons, but it will be helpful to summarize the argument here.

The most detailed and informative account is that of the Philippian jailer (Acts 16:30–34). “Believe in the Lord Jesus,” he was told, “and you shall be saved, you and your household” (vs. 31; cf. 11:14). Accordingly, the gospel was preached “to him together with all who were in his house” (vs. 32). In response, he “believed in God with his whole household” (vs. 34), whereupon “he was baptized, he and all his household” (vs. 33).

The key word in this passage is “with.” It signifies accompaniment. When Luke says that the jailer heard the gospel and believed with his household, the implication is that everyone in his household went along with him. Any older household members, such as his wife, evidently became believers, too. But any young children went along with their father, following his lead with whatever limited understanding that they had.

This crucial distinction between “with” and “and” (regrettably obscured by some translations) is clear in similar passages in Acts: 1:14; 3:4; 4:27; 5:1; 10:2; 14:13; 15:22; 21:5. In each case, “with” introduces those who follow the lead of others and join with them in their activity, however actively or passively. In Acts 21:5, for example, Paul is escorted to the harbor by all the men in the church at Tyre, “with wives and children,” which no doubt included a number of small infants. In the household baptism passages, the head of the house always believes “with” his household, but he and they are baptized. Just as the heads of households escorted Paul to the harbor “with” infants who were only passive participants, so also heads of households were baptized “with” whatever infants were in their families.

Some would argue that there may not have been any infants in these households mentioned in Acts. However, household baptism was evidently a common practice in the apostolic church (see also 1 Cor. 1:16). It must have happened thousands of times, often including infants.

You and Your Children

Paul’s promise to the Philippian jailer, that salvation would come to his whole house if he believed in Jesus, was no different from what Peter told three thousand adult converts at Pentecost. The promise of the Holy Spirit, Peter said, was “for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself” (Acts 2:39). These converts had just been called by the Lord into fellowship with himself, and many other adults (then “far off”) would be called in the future, but the children of these converts formed a third category: they were called into fellowship with Christ together with their parents (or even merely one parent: see 1 Cor. 7:14). Such is the grace of God to the children of believers! We can only infer that the children of the first Christian converts were baptized, brought up in the Christian faith (see Eph. 6:1–4; Col. 3:20–21), and, whenever it pleased the Lord, given the Holy Spirit promised to them.

Conclusion

When we look carefully at the teaching of Scripture, we see that the sign of the covenant was applied to infants prior to Christ, and presumably continued to be applied to them when Jesus changed it to baptism. And when we look closely at the household baptisms described in Acts, there can be little doubt but that infants were commonly baptized in the apostolic church. They were baptized then, and they should be baptized now, on the basis of God’s promise to bless the children of believers. The faith of a parent qualifies a child to be baptized and raised as a disciple of Jesus. He welcomed them into his kingdom, and so should we.

—James W. Scott

Catholic

A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

1. Sola Scriptura Is Not Taught in the Bible

Catholics agree with Protestants that Scripture is a “standard of truth”—even the preeminent one—but not in a sense that rules out the binding authority of authentic apostolic Tradition and the Church. The Bible doesn’t teach that. Catholics agree that Scripture is materially sufficient. In other words, on this view, every true doctrine can be found in the Bible, if only implicitly and indirectly by deduction. But no biblical passage teaches that Scripture is the formal authority or rule of faith in isolation from the Church and Tradition. Sola scriptura can’t even be deduced from implicit passages.

Bingo. Right here. Jesus said Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus also said, Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Commentary: There are two Gospels (one "which is no Gospel at all" as Paul says), they are a Gospel of Grace, and Gospel of Law (alternatively, "A Gospel of Works"). Rejecting the authority of scripture (i.e., "The Word of God") turns the Gospel into a Gospel of Works (such as in Buddhism, Islam, Mormonism, and host of other teachings).

What does the scripture teach us? That Israel received the Gospel in the wilderness, and rejected it for a Gospel of Works (i.e., the Mosaic Law). The Law cannot save one from the wrath of God.

What further does the scripture teach us? That Israel was called out of Egypt, that God called out a people unto himself, that these people were eyewitnesses to God's mighty power when they saw God destroy their enemies who were pursuing them, when God parted the sea, they witnessed the plagues of Egypt and how they were immune. In the end, they still rebelled and bowed to worship the Golden Calf.

Such are those who reject the Gospel of Grace for the traditions of men and a gospel of law or works, which is no gospel at all. You cannot earn your way into God's family. I know that in me dwelleth no good thing. They that are in the flesh cannot please God. Ye must be spiritually born. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 12:18, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

2. The “Word of God” Refers to Oral Teaching Also

“Word” in Holy Scripture often refers to a proclaimed, oral teaching of prophets or apostles. What the prophets spoke was the word of God regardless of whether or not their utterances were recorded later as written Scripture. So for example, we read in Jeremiah:

“For twenty-three years . . . the word of the Lord has come to me and I have spoken to you again and again . . . ‘But you did not listen to me,’ declares the Lord. . . . Therefore the Lord Almighty says this: ‘Because you have not listened to my words. . . .’” (Jer. 25:3, 7-8 [NIV]).

This was the word of God even though some of it was not recorded in writing. It had equal authority as writing or proclamation-never-reduced-to-writing. This was true also of apostolic preaching. When the phrases “word of God” or “word of the Lord” appear in Acts and the epistles, they almost always refer to oral preaching, not to Scripture. For example:

“When you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God” (1 Thess. 2:13).

If we compare this passage with another, written to the same church, Paul appears to regard oral teaching and the word of God as synonymous:

“Keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).

3. Tradition Is Not a Dirty Word

Protestants often quote the verses in the Bible where corrupt traditions of men are condemned (e.g., Matt. 15:2–6; Mark 7:8–13; Col. 2:8). Of course, Catholics agree with this. But it’s not the whole truth. True apostolic Tradition also is endorsed positively. This Tradition is in total harmony with and consistent with Scripture.

4. Jesus and Paul Accepted Non-Biblical Oral and Written Traditions

Protestants defending sola scriptura will claim that Jesus and Paul accepted the authority of the Old Testament. This is true, but they also appealed to other authority outside of written revelation. For example:

a. The reference to “He shall be called a Nazarene” cannot be found in the Old Testament, yet it was “spoken by the prophets” (Matt. 2:23). Therefore, this prophecy, which is considered to be “God’s word,” was passed down orally rather than through Scripture.
b. In Matthew 23:2–3, Jesus teaches that the scribes and Pharisees have a legitimate, binding authority based “on Moses’ seat,” but this phrase or idea cannot be found anywhere in the Old Testament. It is found in the (originally oral) Mishnah, which teaches a sort of “teaching succession” from Moses on down.
c. In 1 Corinthians 10:4, Paul refers to a rock that “followed” the Jews through the Sinai wilderness. The Old Testament says nothing about such miraculous movement. But rabbinic tradition does.
d. “As Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses” (2 Tim. 3:8). These two men cannot be found in the related Old Testament passage (Ex. 7:8ff.) or anywhere else in the Old Testament.

5. The Apostles Exercised Authority at the Council of Jerusalem

In the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:6–30), we see Peter and James speaking with authority. This Council makes an authoritative pronouncement (citing the Holy Spirit) that was binding on all Christians:

“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastity” (Acts 15:28–29).

In the next chapter, we read that Paul, Timothy, and Silas were traveling around “through the cities,” and Scripture says that

“they delivered to them for observance the decisions which had been reached by the apostles and elders who were at Jerusalem” (Acts 16:4).

6. Pharisees, Sadducees, and Oral, Extrabiblical Tradition

Christianity was derived in many ways from the Pharisaical tradition of Judaism. The Sadducees, on the other hand, rejected the future resurrection of the soul, the afterlife, rewards and retribution, demons and angels, and predestinarianism. The Sadducees also rejected all authoritative oral teaching and essentially believed in sola scriptura. They were the theological liberals of that time. Christian Pharisees are referred to in Acts 15:5 and Philippians 3:5, but the Bible never mentions Christian Sadducees. The Pharisees, despite their corruptions and excesses, were the mainstream Jewish tradition, and both Jesus and Paul acknowledge this. So neither the orthodox Old Testament Jews nor the early Church was guided by the principle of sola scriptura.

7. Old Testament Jews Did Not Believe in Sola Scriptura

To give two examples from the Old Testament itself:

a. Ezra, a priest and scribe, studied the Jewish law and taught it to Israel, and his authority was binding under pain of imprisonment, banishment, loss of goods, and even death (cf. Ezra 7:26).
b. In Nehemiah 8:3, Ezra reads the Law of Moses to the people in Jerusalem. In verse 7 we find thirteen Levites who assisted Ezra and helped the people to understand the law. Much earlier, we find Levites exercising the same function (cf. 2 Chr. 17:8–9).

So the people did indeed understand the law (cf. Neh. 8:8, 12), but not without much assistance—not merely upon hearing. Likewise, the Bible is not altogether clear in and of itself but requires the aid of teachers who are more familiar with biblical styles and Hebrew idiom, background, context, exegesis and cross-reference, hermeneutical principles, original languages, etc. The Old Testament, then, teaches about a binding Tradition and need for authoritative interpreters, as does the New Testament (cf. Mark 4:33–34; Acts 8:30–31; 2 Pet. 1:20; 3:16).

8. Ephesians 4 Refutes the Protestant “Proof Text”

“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16–17).

This passage doesn’t teach formal sufficiency which excludes a binding, authoritative role for Tradition and Church.

Protestants extrapolate onto the text what isn’t there. If we look at the overall context of this passage, we can see that Paul makes reference to oral Tradition three times (cf. 2 Tim. 1:13–14; 2:2; 3:14). And to use an analogy, let’s examine a similar passage:

“And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ” (Eph. 4:11–15).

If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

So if all non-scriptural elements are excluded in 2 Timothy, then, by analogy, Scripture would logically have to be excluded in Ephesians. It is far more reasonable to recognize that the absence of one or more elements in one passage does not mean that they are nonexistent. The Church and Scripture are both equally necessary and important for teaching.

9. Paul Casually Assumes That His Passed-Down Tradition Is Infallible and Binding

If Paul wasn’t assuming that, he would have been commanding his followers to adhere to a mistaken doctrine. He writes:

“If any one refuses to obey what we say in this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed” (2 Thess. 3:14).
“Take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them” (Rom. 16:17).

He didn’t write about “the pretty-much, mostly, largely true but not infallible doctrine which you have been taught.”

10. Sola Scriptura Is a Circular Position

When all is said and done, Protestants who accept sola scriptura as their rule of faith appeal to the Bible. If they are asked why one should believe in their particular denominational teaching rather than another, each will appeal to “the Bible’s clear teaching.” Often they act as if they have no tradition that guides their own interpretation.

This is similar to people on two sides of a constitutional debate both saying, “Well, we go by what the Constitution says, whereas you guys don’t.” The U.S. Constitution, like the Bible, is not sufficient in and of itself to resolve differing interpretations. Judges and courts are necessary, and their decrees are legally binding. Supreme Court rulings cannot be overturned except by a future ruling or constitutional amendment. In any event, there is always a final appeal that settles the matter.

But Protestantism lacks this because it appeals to a logically self-defeating principle and a book that must be interpreted by human beings. Obviously, given the divisions in Protestantism, simply “going to the Bible” hasn’t worked. In the end, a person has no assurance or certainty in the Protestant system. They can only “go to the Bible” themselves and perhaps come up with another doctrinal version of some disputed doctrine to add to the list. One either believes there is one truth in any given theological dispute (whatever it is) or adopts a relativist or indifferentist position, where contradictions are fine or the doctrine is so “minor” that differences “don’t matter.”

But the Bible doesn’t teach that whole categories of doctrines are “minor” and that Christians freely and joyfully can disagree in such a fashion. Denominationalism and divisions are vigorously condemned. The only conclusion we can reach from the Bible is what we call the “three-legged stool”: Bible, Church, and Tradition are all necessary to arrive at truth. If you knock out any leg of a three-legged stool, it collapses.

—Dave Armstrong

Reiteration - Bible texts: Regenerative Baptism

• Unless one is regenerated by water and the Spirit, one cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5
• Baptism saves you now. 1 Peter 3:21
• Go forth and make disciples of all nations, Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19
• This is he who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ, not with the water only but with the water and the blood. 1 John 5:6
• There are three witnesses, the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree. 1 John 5:8
• Jesus saves us by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5
• With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22
• The whole church is sanctified by Christ, cleansing her by the washing of water with the word. Ephesians 5:26
• Be baptized, and wash away your sins. Acts 22:16
• Be baptized. The promise of salvation is to you and to your children. Acts 2:38 and 2:39
• Let the children come to me, and do not forbid them, for to such as these belongs the kingdom of God. Luke 18:16
• Verily, verily, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter it. Luke 18:17
• God is not willing that any should perish. 2 Peter 3:9
• We are buried with Christ in baptism, in which we are raised again through faith in the working of God, God making us alive together with him. Colossians 2:12 and 2:13
• To the thirsty I will give water without price from the fountain of the water of life. Revelation 21:6
• A fountain springing up to eternal life. John 4:14
• Except a person be regenerated by water and the Spirit, a person cannot enter the kingdom of God. John 3:5 "regenerated" γεννεθή gennethe interlinear text
  from γεννάω gennao "procreate, regenerate".
• And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Corinthians 6:11
  "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." Matthew 28:19.
• For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:13
• For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. Galatians 3:27
• Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3–6:4.
• even when we were dead through our trespasses, [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). Ephesians 2:5.
  (Grace χάριτί charity the "gift" bestowed by God on man is not a synonym for the faith πίστεως pisteos of man toward God. See Ephesians 2:8-10. Compare
  grace χάρις charis "grace, graciousness, especially the divine influence on the heart" given by God and
  faith ριστις pistis "persuasion, credence, conviction of truth, reliance on Christ for salvation, expressed by man.)
• one Lord, one faith, one baptism,] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:5–6.

• Whoever rejects Jesus and does not receive his sayings has a judge; the word that Jesus has spoken will be his judge on the last day. John 12:4712:48
• He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. John 8:47
  Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Be baptized and wash away your sins. Baptism saves us now, by water and the blood.
• He who despises the word brings destruction on himself. When anyone turns away from hearing the word of God, even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 13:13 and 28:9
• I warned those who sinned before and all the others, and I warn them now while absent, as I did when present on my second visit, that if I come again I will not spare them 2 Corinthians 13:2

--Dataclarifier (talk) 06:34, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Churchiness and pious sounding rhetoric do not save. Only the spirit of God through Christ saves.

What is so difficult about affirming this simple truth? RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:54, 1 November 2019 (EDT)

Analysis

The argument seems to be:

• The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative;
• Salvation is dependent upon church membership;
• While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins.

.RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 05:57, 2 November 2019 (EDT)

Scriptural support of the analysis

• Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Jn 3:5
• He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mk 16:16
• I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mt 16:18-19
• Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. He 13:17
• Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians, to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. Ac 20:28
• And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ; so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles. Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love. Ep 4:11-16
• For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Co 12:12-13
• Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues. 1 Co 12:27-38 (The scriptures are not mentioned here and in Ephesians 4:11-16.)
• Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who has no need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 2 Tm 2:15
• And account the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. 2 Pt 3:15-17
• I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean by the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned. Jn 15:1-6
• For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Rm 2:6-11
• You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24
• For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt. He 6:4-6
• He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. Mt 12:30-31
• I any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. 1 Jn 5:16-17
• My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20
• I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot hear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Jn 16:12-14
• And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you. Jn 14:16-17
• Do you not know that you (plural) are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you (plural)? If anyone destroys God's temple God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and that temple you (plural) are. 1 Co 3:16-17
• So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together nd grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ep 2:19-22
• if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth. 1 Tm 3:15
• Children it is the last hour, and as you have heard that Antichrist is coming, so now many Antichrists have come; therefore we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 1 Jn 2:18-29
• If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refused to listen to them, tell it to the Church; and if he refuses to listen even to the Church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
• Any one who goes beyond and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; for he who greets him shares his wicked work. 2 Jn 9-11

Point one of the analysis

Point one of the analysis. From the Bible itself we see that the Bible must be "rightly divided" and interpreted by the "leaders" and "guardians of the flock" so that we are not "carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles". In my youth 8-14 I sometimes asked my Baptist pastor to confirm what I thought I understood from my Bible reading because what I found in reading it surprised me and I wanted to check my conclusions from me reading of the Bible alone, and he corrected my errors of understanding, because there were other parts of the Bible I either hadn't read or had forgotten and had failed to take into account. More than the Bible alone was needed. That's why we have Sunday school teachers to guide and interpret the Bible for the children. From age 15-17 Pastor Archie Veltman, Southtown Baptist, Des Moines. Even sola scriptura Christians need more than the Bible alone. That's why pastoral guardians of the congregation are needed and appointed to preach doctrine to their flocks, ostensibly so they won't go astray as a result of their personal reading of the Bible. Paul's listings in Ephesians and 1 Corinthians do not mention the Bible as necessary for the upbuilding of the body of Christ. That's why we have need of "Bible lesson" materials, and seminaries of pastoral Bible training for future pastors and Christian educators. The overwhelming multitude of online Bible commentary sites and Christian apologetics sites by sola scriptura Bible Christians is proof that even they acknowledge that the Bible itself, by itself, is not solely authoritative. Still, the scriptures can be twisted (KJV "wrested") by unprincipled men to their destruction and the destruction of those who follow them 1 Pt 3:15-18.

Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "The Bible, or Word of God, is not authoritative". Essentially a correct analysis of the argument. It is authoritative, even according to Catholic doctrine, but not by itself alone (The Cathechism of the Catholic Church CCC numbers 74-141). Whether Independent, Protestant, Orthodox or Catholic, the Bible is always interpreted by the differing Christian groups according to particular doctrinal principles not written in the Bible. For example, no text of the Bible says, "The Bible (Scripture) is the sole rule of faith for the man of God." It says rather that "the scriptures are useful / profitable". 2 Timothy 3:13-17

"while evil men and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceivers and deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work."

It does not say "the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith alone".
It does not say "All scripture is inspired by God as the sole rule of faith".
It does not say that faith alone is enough, but it says that the scriptures make us "equipped for every good work". "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Ep 2:10

James says "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." James 2:24.
Martin Luther contradicted this doctrine. He said James is a "strawy epistle" and that he found nothing of the Gospel in it, and removed it to an appendix of uninspired writings in his German Bible.
The Bible is profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, but works are necessary, since a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. The Bible is authoritative, but not by itself alone.

Point two of the analysis

Point two of the analysis. From the Bible we see that Christians are "baptized into the body of Christ" and that "just as the body is one and has many members, so it is with Christ"—"you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the Church" several ministries, among them the "guardians of the flock to feed the Church of God which he obtained with his own blood". The members of the Church are all "baptized into Christ", "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body". "If a man does not remain in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned." "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rv 20:15

Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "Salvation is dependent upon church membership". The Bible supports that argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone. But church membership is much broader than being legally listed on the church rolls of membership in a particular Christian congregation. According to Catholic doctrine all who are baptized by water and the Spirit with the word are members of the body of Christ, and united to the Catholic Church, even if imperfectly, without being aware of it (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, numbers 830-848). Membership in the body of Christ himself extends even beyond the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church, embracing all who have been baptized into his body "unwilling that any should perish" 2 Pt 3:9.

"Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it...Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation" CCC 846, 847.

And as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone, those who do not abide in the body of Christ are cast out and burned.

Point three of the analysis

Point three of the analysis. From the Bible we see that even if a person is baptized into the body of Christ and believes, subsequent loss of belief and falling away (παραπίπτω parapipto "apostasy") from Christ afterward will condemn them to hell (Hebrews 6:7-8; John 15:6), unless someone brings them back to repentance (James 5:19-20). "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone", "For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead." "For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rm 2:6
We also see from the Bible in the words of Jesus himself "every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Your analysis, above, concluded that the argument is "While baptism qualifies a person for adoption into God's family, it is no guarantee; salvation still must be earned by good works, or at least the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of certain sins." The Bible supports this argument, as seen above in the passages cited from the Bible alone.

conclusion: the analysis of the argument is supported sola scriptura

Your analysis of the argument is a fairly accurate summary, with some minor provisions added for clarification. Every point set out as the essential argument in the analysis is found in the Bible
(a) Scripture is authoritative when properly interpreted
(b) Salvation is dependent on being united to Jesus Christ and abiding in the one body of his Church as a member of his body (c) Baptism unites the baptized to the body of Christ as a member, but without good works as the sustaining fruit of salvation the member bears no fruit and is lost (cast forth), and the sacrificial death of Jesus is insufficient to cleanse one of unrepented sins and of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

The Bible supports all of these points of the analysis. What remains is the question of whether or not to accept the analysis sola scriptura, based on all of the scriptural support for it cited here. Use the principle of "Scripture interprets scripture" without disregarding any part of scripture cited here in support of the three points of analysis.
Jesus said to the lawyer (to an expert in the Law of Moses), "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" Lk 10:25-28
He also said, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me; if any man's will is to do his will, he shall know whether the teaching is from God or whether I speak on my own authority." Jn 7:16-17
"Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Mt 7:7-8
"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates." Rv 22:11-14
--Dataclarifier (talk) 14:00, 2 November 2019 (EDT)