Difference between revisions of "Debate: Luther, Protestantism vs. Catholicism: Which is better?"

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[[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism]]: '''''The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism''''' is a highly influential 1905 book by sociologist [[Max Weber]].  The ethic consists of hard work, disdain for leisure, competitive spirit and a profit motive to provide an incentive to achieve.  
 
[[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism]]: '''''The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism''''' is a highly influential 1905 book by sociologist [[Max Weber]].  The ethic consists of hard work, disdain for leisure, competitive spirit and a profit motive to provide an incentive to achieve.  
  
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Despite being an [[Atheism|atheist]], [[Harvard University]] historian [[Niall Ferguson]] declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref>
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Despite being an [[Atheism|atheist]], [[Harvard University]] historian [[Niall Ferguson]] declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the [[Protestantism|Protestant]] societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."<ref>[http://blog.tifwe.org/the-protestant-work-ethic-alive-well-in-china/ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China] By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012</ref> {{unsigned|}}
  
 
==== Protestant missionaries and economic development statistics ====
 
==== Protestant missionaries and economic development statistics ====
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...Woodberry's historical and statistical work has finally captured glowing attention. A summation of his 14 years of research—published in 2012 in the American Political Science Review, the discipline's top journal—has won four major awards, including the prestigious Luebbert Article Award for best article in comparative politics. Its startling title: "The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy."
 
...Woodberry's historical and statistical work has finally captured glowing attention. A summation of his 14 years of research—published in 2012 in the American Political Science Review, the discipline's top journal—has won four major awards, including the prestigious Luebbert Article Award for best article in comparative politics. Its startling title: "The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy."
  
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...over a dozen studies have confirmed Woodberry's findings. The growing body of research is beginning to change the way scholars, aid workers, and economists think about democracy and development.<ref>Christianity Today, [https://archive.is/cDMnA The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries], January 8, 2014</ref>}}
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...over a dozen studies have confirmed Woodberry's findings. The growing body of research is beginning to change the way scholars, aid workers, and economists think about democracy and development.<ref>Christianity Today, [https://archive.is/cDMnA The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries], January 8, 2014</ref>}}  {{unsigned|}}
  
 
== Auguste Comte on the above ==
 
== Auguste Comte on the above ==
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As far ex-communicating Joe Biden, the Vatican has not done this or even strenuously raised the issue.  ]]
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As far ex-communicating Joe Biden, the Vatican has not done this or even strenuously raised the issue.  ]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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[[File:512px-Musei Vaticani. Braccio Nuovo.jpeg|center|500px|thumb|Please see: [https://www.buzzworthy.com/vatican-sell-assets-help-poor/ Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?] ]]
 
[[File:512px-Musei Vaticani. Braccio Nuovo.jpeg|center|500px|thumb|Please see: [https://www.buzzworthy.com/vatican-sell-assets-help-poor/ Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?] ]]
 
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[[Image:Ghjhn.jpg|center|300px|thumb|Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City]]
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[[Image:Ghjhn.jpg|center|300px|thumb|Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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"Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them - though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me." - Apostle Paul, the hardest working apostle of Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 15: 8-10 (NRSV)
 
"Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them - though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me." - Apostle Paul, the hardest working apostle of Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 15: 8-10 (NRSV)
  
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[[File:The Conversion of St Paul by Nicolas-Bernard Lepicie, 1767.JPG|thumbnail|center|225px|The conversion of [[Saint Paul|Paul]] by the painter Nicolas-Bernard Lepicie]]
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[[File:The Conversion of St Paul by Nicolas-Bernard Lepicie, 1767.JPG|thumbnail|center|225px|The conversion of [[Saint Paul|Paul]] by the painter Nicolas-Bernard Lepicie]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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On behalf of all Protestantism, I hereby declare victory over Catholicism on the world wide web! Olé! Olé! Olé!]]
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On behalf of all Protestantism, I hereby declare victory over Catholicism on the world wide web! Olé! Olé! Olé!]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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==== Got Questions Ministries vs. Catholic Answers: Google referral traffic ====
 
==== Got Questions Ministries vs. Catholic Answers: Google referral traffic ====
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Google uses over 200 factors to evaluate the quality and the relevance of a website to various topics.]]
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Google uses over 200 factors to evaluate the quality and the relevance of a website to various topics.]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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====  Final note ====
 
====  Final note ====
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[[File:Vatican-23.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Please see: [https://www.buzzworthy.com/vatican-sell-assets-help-poor/ Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?] ]]
 
[[File:Vatican-23.jpg|center|500px|thumb|Please see: [https://www.buzzworthy.com/vatican-sell-assets-help-poor/ Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?] ]]
 
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[[Image:Ghjhn.jpg|center|300px|thumb|Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City]]
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[[Image:Ghjhn.jpg|center|300px|thumb|Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City]] {{unsigned|}}
 
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=== NishantXavier's Rejoinder ===
 
=== NishantXavier's Rejoinder ===
  
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Following Luther is wicked because it is agreeing with his sins and crimes. Anyone who removes the 7 Deuterocanonical Books from the Bible is following Luther in his impiety and wickedness. The Wretched Demonic Man also attacked 6 other Books of the Bible, as documented above. He thus merited all the curses God mentions in the Book of Revelation - which he also rejected - for doing so. He proved he was an Apostle of the Devil and a false teacher and wicked man when he attacked the Book of St. James the Apostle, whom even the unbelieving Jews called St. James the Just, and who was a Holy Martyr for Jesus Christ, unlike Luther, who was not, and was responsible for the death of 100,000 to 300,000 Peasants. Purgatory is taught in 1 Cor 3:15 by St. Paul the Apostle, by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has always and everywhere been held by the Catholic Church. Those who die in Grace with venial sins remaining will go to Purgatory before Heaven. This is why the Holy Mass is offered for the sins of the faithful departed, just as the OT sacrifices in the Temple in 2 Macc 12:43-46. The debate stands concluded and the Catholic Church clearly wins. Martin Luther was wicked, like Cain, and offered, bad invalid sacrifices after destroying the Priesthood (which is what his Protestant Revolution was all about), whereas the Catholic Church, like Abel, is righteous (as St. John says in his Epistle), and she offers worthy, glorious, valid Eucharistic Sacrifices and saves Souls from Purgatory. ~
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Following Luther is wicked because it is agreeing with his sins and crimes. Anyone who removes the 7 Deuterocanonical Books from the Bible is following Luther in his impiety and wickedness. The Wretched Demonic Man also attacked 6 other Books of the Bible, as documented above. He thus merited all the curses God mentions in the Book of Revelation - which he also rejected - for doing so. He proved he was an Apostle of the Devil and a false teacher and wicked man when he attacked the Book of St. James the Apostle, whom even the unbelieving Jews called St. James the Just, and who was a Holy Martyr for Jesus Christ, unlike Luther, who was not, and was responsible for the death of 100,000 to 300,000 Peasants. Purgatory is taught in 1 Cor 3:15 by St. Paul the Apostle, by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has always and everywhere been held by the Catholic Church. Those who die in Grace with venial sins remaining will go to Purgatory before Heaven. This is why the Holy Mass is offered for the sins of the faithful departed, just as the OT sacrifices in the Temple in 2 Macc 12:43-46. The debate stands concluded and the Catholic Church clearly wins. Martin Luther was wicked, like Cain, and offered, bad invalid sacrifices after destroying the Priesthood (which is what his Protestant Revolution was all about), whereas the Catholic Church, like Abel, is righteous (as St. John says in his Epistle), and she offers worthy, glorious, valid Eucharistic Sacrifices and saves Souls from Purgatory. ~ {{unsigned|}}
  
 
== Addendum: Biblical and Patristic Proofs of Purgatory, which the heretics Calvin and Luther denied ==
 
== Addendum: Biblical and Patristic Proofs of Purgatory, which the heretics Calvin and Luther denied ==
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'''American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).'''[https://research.lifeway.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/] Under Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate!
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'''American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).'''[https://research.lifeway.com/2017/04/25/lifeway-research-americans-are-fond-of-the-bible-dont-actually-read-it/]  
 
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Also, the Catholic Church never ex-communicated Hitler.]]
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Under American Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate of American Protestants!
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Also, the Catholic Church never ex-communicated Hitler.]] {{unsigned|User:Conservative}}
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:Footnote: That man in the photo is not Adolf Hitler, it is a body double used in Nazi propaganda, as it is being used here again. [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 17:48, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
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:Any qualified historian can see that, and immediately realize the author and poster doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.
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:How a discussion about the teachings of Martin Luther leads to a discussion about Adolf Hitler, I haven't a clue. Are you claiming Luther somehow was prophetic, that someday Hitler would arise out the Roman Catholic Church? [[User:RobSmith|RobS]]<sup>[[User talk:RobSmith|''Give Peace a Chance!'']]</sup> 18:03, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 
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Please read: [[Essay: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA|The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA]]
 
Please read: [[Essay: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA|The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA]]
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{{unsigned|}}
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== Protestantism has big and powerful Spirit-filled revivals! Catholicism doesn't! ==
 
== Protestantism has big and powerful Spirit-filled revivals! Catholicism doesn't! ==
  
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*[[Welsh Revival of 1904-1905]]
 
*[[Welsh Revival of 1904-1905]]
 
*[[Pyongyang Revival and crime reduction]]
 
*[[Pyongyang Revival and crime reduction]]
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{{unsigned|}}
  
 
== Protestant pentecostalism wins the FASTEST end times evangelism award. Sorry Catholics, this is another category that you lose in ==
 
== Protestant pentecostalism wins the FASTEST end times evangelism award. Sorry Catholics, this is another category that you lose in ==
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The [[Atheism|atheist]] author and advocate David Madison, PhD wrote in March 2019: "I remain haunted—and terrified—by what I read on a Christian website, not long after the turn of this century: that by 2025, there will be one billion (yes, that’s with a “b”) Pentecostals in the world."<ref>[https://examiningatheism.blogspot.com/2019/03/atheist-author-and-advocate-is.html Atheist author and advocate is absolutely TERRIFIED about the future growth of pentecostal Christianity], ''Examining Atheism'', March 2019</ref>
 
The [[Atheism|atheist]] author and advocate David Madison, PhD wrote in March 2019: "I remain haunted—and terrified—by what I read on a Christian website, not long after the turn of this century: that by 2025, there will be one billion (yes, that’s with a “b”) Pentecostals in the world."<ref>[https://examiningatheism.blogspot.com/2019/03/atheist-author-and-advocate-is.html Atheist author and advocate is absolutely TERRIFIED about the future growth of pentecostal Christianity], ''Examining Atheism'', March 2019</ref>
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{{unsigned|}}
  
 
== While Catholicism is dying in secular Europe, Evangelical Christianity is growing in secular/atheistic areas in a powerful way! ==
 
== While Catholicism is dying in secular Europe, Evangelical Christianity is growing in secular/atheistic areas in a powerful way! ==
  
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*[[Growth of evangelical Christianity in irreligious regions]] and [[Western World areas with stagnant secularization rates]]
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*[[Growth of evangelical Christianity in irreligious regions]] and [[Western World areas with stagnant secularization rates]] {{unsigned|}}
 
=== Growth of evangelical Christianity in China ===
 
=== Growth of evangelical Christianity in China ===
  
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In 2020, ''The Economist'' published an article entitled ''Protestant Christianity is booming in China'' which indicated:
 
In 2020, ''The Economist'' published an article entitled ''Protestant Christianity is booming in China'' which indicated:
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{{Cquote|As for China’s Christians, their numbers continue to grow. The government reckons that about 200m of China’s 1.4bn people are religious. Although most practice traditional Chinese religions such as Taoism, and longer-standing foreign imports such as Buddhism, Protestant Christianity is probably the fastest-growing faith, with at least 38m adherents today (about 3% of the population), up from 22m a decade ago, according to the government’s count. The true number is probably much higher: perhaps as many as 22m more Chinese Protestants worship in unregistered “underground” churches, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Notre Dame. As China also has 10m-12m Catholics, there are more Christians in China today than in France (38m) or Germany (43m). Combined, Christians and the country’s estimated 23m Muslims may now outnumber the membership of the Communist Party (92m). Indeed, an unknown number of party members go to church as well as local committee meetings.<ref>[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/09/15/protestant-christianity-is-booming-in-china ''Protestant Christianity is booming in China''], ''The Economist'', Sep 15th 2020</ref>}}
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{{Cquote|As for China’s Christians, their numbers continue to grow. The government reckons that about 200m of China’s 1.4bn people are religious. Although most practice traditional Chinese religions such as Taoism, and longer-standing foreign imports such as Buddhism, Protestant Christianity is probably the fastest-growing faith, with at least 38m adherents today (about 3% of the population), up from 22m a decade ago, according to the government’s count. The true number is probably much higher: perhaps as many as 22m more Chinese Protestants worship in unregistered “underground” churches, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Notre Dame. As China also has 10m-12m Catholics, there are more Christians in China today than in France (38m) or Germany (43m). Combined, Christians and the country’s estimated 23m Muslims may now outnumber the membership of the Communist Party (92m). Indeed, an unknown number of party members go to church as well as local committee meetings.<ref>[https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/09/15/protestant-christianity-is-booming-in-china ''Protestant Christianity is booming in China''], ''The Economist'', Sep 15th 2020</ref>}} {{unsigned|}}
 
=== Growth of evangelical Christianity in secular Europe ===
 
=== Growth of evangelical Christianity in secular Europe ===
  
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ESS data on religiosity...
 
ESS data on religiosity...
  
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Currently, there are more evangelical Christians than Muslims in Europe. (Jenkins 2007: 75) In Eastern Europe, as outside the western world, Pentecostalism is a sociological and not a demographic phenomenon. In Western Europe, by contrast, demography is central to evangelicalism’s growth, especially in urban areas. Alas, immigration brings two foreign imports, Islam and Christianity, to secular Europe.<ref>[http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf ''Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century'' by Eric Kaufmann]</ref>}}
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Currently, there are more evangelical Christians than Muslims in Europe. (Jenkins 2007: 75) In Eastern Europe, as outside the western world, Pentecostalism is a sociological and not a demographic phenomenon. In Western Europe, by contrast, demography is central to evangelicalism’s growth, especially in urban areas. Alas, immigration brings two foreign imports, Islam and Christianity, to secular Europe.<ref>[http://www.sneps.net/RD/uploads/1-Shall%20the%20Religious%20Inherit%20the%20Earth.pdf ''Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century'' by Eric Kaufmann]</ref>}} {{unsigned|}}
  
 
==== Projected growth of evangelical Christianity in Europe according to Operation World ====
 
==== Projected growth of evangelical Christianity in Europe according to Operation World ====
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<ref>[https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-2006-07-24-voa48/322976.html ''Evangelical Churches Flourishing in Europe''], Voice of America website, 2009</ref>}}
 
<ref>[https://www.voanews.com/a/a-13-2006-07-24-voa48/322976.html ''Evangelical Churches Flourishing in Europe''], Voice of America website, 2009</ref>}}
  
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See also: [http://questionevolution.blogspot.com/2012/07/immigrant-evangelical-churches-are-fast.html Immigrant evangelical churches are a fast growing movement in France]
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See also: [http://questionevolution.blogspot.com/2012/07/immigrant-evangelical-churches-are-fast.html Immigrant evangelical churches are a fast growing movement in France] {{unsigned|}}
  
 
==== Growth of British evangelical Christianity ====
 
==== Growth of British evangelical Christianity ====
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See also:
 
See also:
  
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*[http://www.the-american-interest.com/berger/2013/12/18/pentecostalism-invades-lambeth-palace/ Pentecostalism Invades Lambeth Palace] by [[Peter L. Berger]]
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*[http://www.the-american-interest.com/berger/2013/12/18/pentecostalism-invades-lambeth-palace/ Pentecostalism Invades Lambeth Palace] by [[Peter L. Berger]] {{unsigned|}}
  
 
==== Germany and the growth of evangelical Christianity ====
 
==== Germany and the growth of evangelical Christianity ====
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''See also:'' [[Secular Europe]]
 
''See also:'' [[Secular Europe]]
  
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On March 17, 2014, the news website ''Deutsche Well'' reported that evangelical Christianity has doubled in [[Germany]] in the last 10 years.<ref>[http://www.dw.de/ghanaian-pastor-seeks-to-re-christianize-germany/a-17501259 Ghanaian pastor seeks to 're-Christianize' Germany]</ref>
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On March 17, 2014, the news website ''Deutsche Well'' reported that evangelical Christianity has doubled in [[Germany]] in the last 10 years.<ref>[http://www.dw.de/ghanaian-pastor-seeks-to-re-christianize-germany/a-17501259 Ghanaian pastor seeks to 're-Christianize' Germany]</ref> {{unsigned|}}
  
 
== Catholic Church, Spanish Inquisition, torture and suffering ==
 
== Catholic Church, Spanish Inquisition, torture and suffering ==
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=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
 
=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
  
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European Catholicism is dying. And if it wasn't for Marxist Catholics promoting illegal immigration in the USA, the scandal-ridden USA Catholic Church would be in decline as well.  
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European Catholicism is dying. And if it wasn't for Marxist Catholics promoting illegal immigration in the USA, the scandal-ridden USA Catholic Church would be in decline as well. In the USA, the conservative Lutherans in the Dakotas have a higher fertility rate than American Catholics and so do the American pentecostals and Amish (See sections above). [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:10, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
  
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Also, Did the British Historian Thomas Macaulay predict the decline of the British Empire? If not, how prescient and culturally/organizationally astute was he?  
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Also, did the British Historian Thomas Macaulay predict the decline of the British Empire? If not, how prescient and culturally/organizationally astute was he?  
  
 
On top of this Catholic universities are often woke and the Jesuits are very liberal and even Catholics admit that they promote heresy (See sections above).  
 
On top of this Catholic universities are often woke and the Jesuits are very liberal and even Catholics admit that they promote heresy (See sections above).  
  
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And lastly, annthis cannot be overemphasized due to the severity of the problem, the Catholic Church still has a significant homosexuality problem within its priesthood/hierarchy which even the staunch Catholic Michael Voris admits and publically decries. See:
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And lastly, annthis cannot be overemphasized due to the severity of the problem, the Catholic Church still has a significant homosexuality problem within its priesthood/hierarchy which even the staunch Catholic Michael Voris admits and publically decries. See: [https://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:Does_the_Catholic_Church_have_the_biblical_authority_of_Christ_Himself_to_preach_and_to_teach_the_truth_forever%3F#The_Catholic_Church_is_a_corrupt_joke._Jesus_said_you_will_know_them_by_their_fruits The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said that you shall know them by their fruits]. {{unsigned|}}
  
 
== Catholic Encyclopedia Citations and Explanations of the Origin of the Term, "Protestant" ==
 
== Catholic Encyclopedia Citations and Explanations of the Origin of the Term, "Protestant" ==
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Against this decree, and especially against the last article, the adherents of the new Evangel — the Elector Frederick of Saxony, the Landgrave of Hesse, the Margrave Albert of Brandenburg, the Dukes of Lüneburg, the Prince of Anhalt, together with the deputies of fourteen of the free and imperial cities — entered a solemn protest as unjust and impious. The meaning of the protest was that the dissentients did not intend to tolerate Catholicism within their borders. On that account they were called Protestants.
 
Against this decree, and especially against the last article, the adherents of the new Evangel — the Elector Frederick of Saxony, the Landgrave of Hesse, the Margrave Albert of Brandenburg, the Dukes of Lüneburg, the Prince of Anhalt, together with the deputies of fourteen of the free and imperial cities — entered a solemn protest as unjust and impious. The meaning of the protest was that the dissentients did not intend to tolerate Catholicism within their borders. On that account they were called Protestants.
  
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In course of time the original connotation of "no toleration for Catholics" was lost sight of, and the term is now applied to, and accepted by, members of those Western Churches and sects which, in the sixteenth century, were set up by the Reformers in direct opposition to the Catholic Church. The same man may call himself Protestant or Reformed: the term Protestant lays more stress on antagonism to Rome; the term Reformed emphasizes adherence to any of the Reformers. Where religious indifference is prevalent, many will say they are Protestants, merely to signify that they are not Catholics. In some such vague, negative sense, the word stands in the new formula of the Declaration of Faith to be made by the King of England at his coronation; viz.: "I declare that I am a faithful Protestant". During the debates in Parliament it was observed that the proposed formula effectively debarred Catholics from the throne, whilst it committed the king to no particular creed, as no man knows what the creed of a faithful Protestant is or should be." <ref>https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm</ref>.
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In course of time the original connotation of "no toleration for Catholics" was lost sight of, and the term is now applied to, and accepted by, members of those Western Churches and sects which, in the sixteenth century, were set up by the Reformers in direct opposition to the Catholic Church. The same man may call himself Protestant or Reformed: the term Protestant lays more stress on antagonism to Rome; the term Reformed emphasizes adherence to any of the Reformers. Where religious indifference is prevalent, many will say they are Protestants, merely to signify that they are not Catholics. In some such vague, negative sense, the word stands in the new formula of the Declaration of Faith to be made by the King of England at his coronation; viz.: "I declare that I am a faithful Protestant". During the debates in Parliament it was observed that the proposed formula effectively debarred Catholics from the throne, whilst it committed the king to no particular creed, as no man knows what the creed of a faithful Protestant is or should be." <ref>https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm</ref>. {{unsigned|}}
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=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
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The USA, which is a Protestant majority country,  attracts people from all corners of the earth partly due to its high degree of religious freedom - especially in the Republican-controlled areas of the USA.
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In Northern Europe, which has a cultural heritage of Protestantism, there is more religious freedom than France which has a cultural heritage of Catholicism/atheism. In France, Muslim women are not allowed to wear headscarves. And when France was less secular, the Catholics persecuted the Huguenots.
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And of course, let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition and intolerant Catholic queen Mary I of England who has often been called "Bloody Mary" by Protestants. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:20, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
  
 
== Secular Historians on Protestant Persecutions of Catholics ==
 
== Secular Historians on Protestant Persecutions of Catholics ==
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"`The Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its authors were universal persecutors' . . .
 
"`The Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its authors were universal persecutors' . . .
  
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Auguste Comte also writes:
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[[Auguste Comte]] also writes:
  
 
"`The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached.' (Philosophie Positive, vol.4, p.51).
 
"`The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached.' (Philosophie Positive, vol.4, p.51).
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"Nor should we ever forget that . . . the Protestants were the aggressors, the Catholics were the defenders. The Protestants were attempting to destroy the old, established Christian Church, which had existed 1500 years, and to replace it by something new, untried and revolutionary. The Catholics were upholding a Faith, hallowed by centuries of pious associations and sublime achievements; the Protestants, on the contrary, were fighting for a creed . . . which already was beginning to disintegrate into hostile sects, each of which, if it gained the upper hand, commenced to persecute the rest! . . . All religious persecution is bad; but in this case, of the two parties guilty of it, the Catholics certainly had the more defensible motives for their conduct.
 
"Nor should we ever forget that . . . the Protestants were the aggressors, the Catholics were the defenders. The Protestants were attempting to destroy the old, established Christian Church, which had existed 1500 years, and to replace it by something new, untried and revolutionary. The Catholics were upholding a Faith, hallowed by centuries of pious associations and sublime achievements; the Protestants, on the contrary, were fighting for a creed . . . which already was beginning to disintegrate into hostile sects, each of which, if it gained the upper hand, commenced to persecute the rest! . . . All religious persecution is bad; but in this case, of the two parties guilty of it, the Catholics certainly had the more defensible motives for their conduct.
  
−
"At all events, the argument that the persecutions for heresy, perpetrated by the Catholics, constitute a reason why one should not enter the Catholic Church, has not a particle more force than a similar argument would have against one's entering the Protestant Church. In both there have been those deserving of blame in this respect, and what applies to one applies also to the other." (92:204-5,209-l0)"<ref>http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm</ref>
+
"At all events, the argument that the persecutions for heresy, perpetrated by the Catholics, constitute a reason why one should not enter the Catholic Church, has not a particle more force than a similar argument would have against one's entering the Protestant Church. In both there have been those deserving of blame in this respect, and what applies to one applies also to the other." (92:204-5,209-l0)"<ref>http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm</ref> {{unsigned|}}
 +
 
 +
=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
 +
 
 +
As noted above, [[Auguste Comte]] was an atheist. State atheism/communist regimes have been tyrannical.
 +
 
 +
[[Friedrich Hayek]] was highly critical of Comte's totalitarian ideas.<ref>[https://books.google.com/books?id=EyNHBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA70 The Road to Serfdom]</ref>
 +
 
 +
[[Joe Biden]], a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had.  And the Vatican has yet to deny him communion throughout the Catholic Church nor have they ex-communicated him.
 +
 
 +
Protestant countries, like the USA have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism]] and [[Protestant cultural legacies]]
 +
 
 +
<big>'''Key point:'''</big> In light of the above, I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate! [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:31, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
[[File:Auguste Comte.jpg|thumbnail|400px|center|[[Auguste Comte]] was an [[atheist]]. State atheism/communist regimes have been tyrannical.
 +
<br />
 +
<br />
 +
[[Friedrich Hayek]] was highly critical of Comte's totalitarian ideas.<ref>[https://books.google.com/books?id=EyNHBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA70 The Road to Serfdom]</ref>
 +
<br />
 +
<br />
 +
[[Joe Biden]], a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had.  And the Vatican has yet to deny him communion throughout the Catholic Church nor have they ex-communicated him.
 +
<br />
 +
<br />
 +
Protestant countries, like the USA have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See: [[Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism]] and [[Protestant cultural legacies]]
 +
<br />
 +
<br />
 +
<big>'''Key point:'''</big> In light of the above, I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate!]]
 +
{{Clear}}
 +
[[File:Tebow.jpg|thumbnail|600px|center|I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate!
 +
<br />
 +
<br />
 +
If only Catholics had an "organizational vitality" and low levels of corruption running games. Then User: NishantXavier wouldn't be so tempted to do so many desperate Auguste Compte quote Hail Mary passes! ]] {{unsigned|}}
 +
{{Clear}}
  
 
== Addendum on Catholic Religious Tolerance: Lord Baltimore's Colony in Maryland ==
 
== Addendum on Catholic Religious Tolerance: Lord Baltimore's Colony in Maryland ==
Line 1,432: Line 1,481:
 
"In the 17th century the most notable instances of practical toleration were the colonies of Maryland, founded by Lord Baltimore in 1632 for persecuted Catholics, which offered asylum also to Protestants, and of Rhode Island, founded by Roger Williams." (78:1383)
 
"In the 17th century the most notable instances of practical toleration were the colonies of Maryland, founded by Lord Baltimore in 1632 for persecuted Catholics, which offered asylum also to Protestants, and of Rhode Island, founded by Roger Williams." (78:1383)
  
−
Stories of Protestant intolerance in America prior to 1789 could be multiplied indefinitely. Jefferson and Madison, in pushing for complete religious freedom, were reacting primarily to these inter-Protestant wars for dominance, not the squabbles of post-Reformation Europe. Here we are concerned with the immediate era of the Protestant Revolution - roughly 1517 to 1600, so the above anecdotes will have to suffice as altogether typical examples."<ref>http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm</ref>
+
Stories of Protestant intolerance in America prior to 1789 could be multiplied indefinitely. Jefferson and Madison, in pushing for complete religious freedom, were reacting primarily to these inter-Protestant wars for dominance, not the squabbles of post-Reformation Europe. Here we are concerned with the immediate era of the Protestant Revolution - roughly 1517 to 1600, so the above anecdotes will have to suffice as altogether typical examples."<ref>http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm</ref> {{unsigned|}}
 +
=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
 +
 
 +
I have two words for User: NishantXavier: [[Spanish Inquisition]]! [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:54, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
  
 
== Inadvertent Protestant Praise for the Catholic Church: The Test of Vitality ==
 
== Inadvertent Protestant Praise for the Catholic Church: The Test of Vitality ==
Line 1,448: Line 1,500:
 
'''Catholicism numbers some 270 millions of adherents [1.35 BN now; this was in 1907 - NX], all professing the same Faith, using the same sacraments, living under the same discipline; Protestantism claims roundly 100 millions of Christians, products of the Gospel and the fancies of a hundred reformers, people constantly bewailing their "unhappy divisions" and vainly crying for a union which is only possible under that very central authority, protestation against which is their only common denominator." <ref>https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm</ref>
 
'''Catholicism numbers some 270 millions of adherents [1.35 BN now; this was in 1907 - NX], all professing the same Faith, using the same sacraments, living under the same discipline; Protestantism claims roundly 100 millions of Christians, products of the Gospel and the fancies of a hundred reformers, people constantly bewailing their "unhappy divisions" and vainly crying for a union which is only possible under that very central authority, protestation against which is their only common denominator." <ref>https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm</ref>
  
−
The Truth, Continued: "The truth of the whole matter is this: religious toleration has been placed on the statute books of modern nations; the civil power has severed itself from the ecclesiastical; the governing classes have grown alarmingly indifferent to things spiritual; the educated classes are largely Rationalistic; the working classes are widely infected with anti-religious socialism; a prolific press daily and periodically preaches the gospel of Naturalism overtly or covertly to countless eager readers; in many lands Christian teaching is banished from the public schools; and revealed religion is fast losing that power of fashioning politics, culture, home life, and personal character which it used to exercise for the benefit of Christian states. Amid this almost general flight from God to the creature, Catholicism alone makes a stand: its teaching is intact, its discipline stronger than ever, its confidence in final victory is unshaken."
+
The Truth, Continued: "The truth of the whole matter is this: religious toleration has been placed on the statute books of modern nations; the civil power has severed itself from the ecclesiastical; the governing classes have grown alarmingly indifferent to things spiritual; the educated classes are largely Rationalistic; the working classes are widely infected with anti-religious socialism; a prolific press daily and periodically preaches the gospel of Naturalism overtly or covertly to countless eager readers; in many lands Christian teaching is banished from the public schools; and revealed religion is fast losing that power of fashioning politics, culture, home life, and personal character which it used to exercise for the benefit of Christian states. Amid this almost general flight from God to the creature, Catholicism alone makes a stand: its teaching is intact, its discipline stronger than ever, its confidence in final victory is unshaken." {{unsigned|}}
 +
=== User: Conservative's rebuttal ===
 +
 
 +
As I noted above, European Catholicism is dying. And if it wasn't for Marxist Catholics promoting illegal immigration in the USA and liberal/leftist elites promoting open borders in the USA, the scandal-ridden USA Catholic Church would be in decline as well. In the USA, the conservative Lutherans in the Dakotas have a higher fertility rate than American Catholics and so do the American pentecostals and Amish (See sections above). [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:10, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
Also, did the British Historian Thomas Macaulay predict the decline of the British Empire? If not, how prescient and culturally/organizationally astute was he?
 +
 
 +
On top of this Catholic universities are often woke and the Jesuits are very liberal and even Catholics admit that they promote heresy (See sections above).
 +
 
 +
And lastly, and this cannot be overemphasized due to the severity of the problem, the Catholic Church still has a significant homosexuality problem within its priesthood/hierarchy which even the staunch Catholic Michael Voris admits and publically decries. See: [https://www.conservapedia.com/Debate:Does_the_Catholic_Church_have_the_biblical_authority_of_Christ_Himself_to_preach_and_to_teach_the_truth_forever%3F#The_Catholic_Church_is_a_corrupt_joke._Jesus_said_you_will_know_them_by_their_fruits The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said that you shall know them by their fruits]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:41, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
== If only American and European Catholics were as pro-life as the Amish.  Put another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale ==
 +
 
 +
The [[Amish]] are the fastest-growing religion in the United States, doubling every 20 years.<ref>https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-08-01/why-the-amish-population-is-exploding#:~:text=But%20according%20to%20a%20new,in%201989%20of%20about%20100%2C000.</ref> The Amish population is growing so fast that each year some families move out to acquire more farmland.  They are highly successful financially and morally.  By 2050 the Amish are expected to attain 1 million in total population in the [[United States]], and by 2222 the Amish could be the majority in the U.S.<ref>By doubling its population every 20 years, the Amish population would increase by 1024 times in 200 years.</ref>
 +
 
 +
The Amish have a high fertility rate.
 +
 
 +
Furthermore, please read:
 +
 
 +
*[[Essay: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA|The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA]]
 +
 
 +
*[[Debate: Luther, Protestantism vs. Catholicism: Which is better?#American Protestant pentecostal Christians are more pro-life than American Catholics. Another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale|American Protestant pentecostal Christians are more pro-life than American Catholics. Another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale]]
 +
 
 +
<big>'''Question:'''</big> Why do Catholic majority states in the United States and European Catholic majority countries have such low birth rates which are below the replacement level of births? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 07:49, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
[[File:Amish youth groups at Behalt 11.jpg|thumbnail|center|250px| Amish youth groups from Davies County, IN, and Lancaster County, PA, visit Behalt as part of their preparing to make the decision of whether or not to join the Amish community on a long term basis (namely, their adulthood).]] User: Conservative.
 +
 
 +
=== User: NishantXavier's response ===
 +
 
 +
Hahaha ha. "expected to attain 1 million in total population". There might be 2+ BN Catholic Christians in the world by 2050, and you're talking about Amish maybe reaching 1 MN. Catholic Church grows by both Birth Rates and Evangelism, and other churches re-uniting with Her, as I showed the Orthodox Churches are in the process of doing. Also look up the Anglican Ordinariate established under Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Btw, I believe Anti-Catholic Protestants going into Catholic Countries like Brazil or Orthodox Countries like Russia and proselytizing those in such Nations with One Single Established Church into Multiple Confused Divided Denominations is schismatic and sinful behavior. Instead, let our Bishops and Priests debate and discuss with your Pastors and Theologians, try to arrive at consensus, and see if a Church Re-Union is possible. In the meanwhile, Evangelical Christians should Evangelize Non Christian Areas, like much of China, India, North Africa and the Middle East, which Great Commission Researchers call the 10/40 Window. Am on my phone now and will cite Protestant Writer Philip Jenkins on the Catholic Church in Africa shortly. He expects there will be 450 MN Catholics at minimum in Africa Alone as a very Conservative Estimate, meaning it'll be probably be much more than that. And this in Africa Alone, and this would be larger than the Entire World Population of Catholic Christians as it stood in 1950. Hallelujah! Demography is Destiny, and so thats Good News for the Catholic Church and all who love Her. Catholics and Evangelicals should debate and discuss these issues and try to arrive at a consensus where possible. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 16:11, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
=== User: Conservative's rejoinder ===
 +
 
 +
I can cite Phillip Jenkins too and please note the bolding in the below quote which was added for emphasis.
 +
 
 +
[[Phillip Jenkins]] published the book ''The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity''.
 +
 
 +
[[Chuck Colson]], citing the work of Jenkins, writes:
 +
{{Cquote|As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in ''The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity'', predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.
 +
 
 +
For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.
 +
 
 +
According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. '''In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.'''<ref>[http://www1.cbn.com/biblestudy/how-christianity-is-growing-around-the-world How Christianity is Growing Around the World] by Chuck Colson</ref>}}
 +
 
 +
Most Pentecostals are Protestant. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 16:54, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
== Philip Jenkins in Catholic Herald: Catholic Christianitys Incredible Growth Story ==
 +
 
 +
Yup. Found it. Incidentally, it was written on Sept 8, 2016. September 8 is the Birthday of a Blessed Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church. I'm sure the Queen of Saints in Heaven (Rev 12:1; even Luther knew this was about Mary) would have rejoiced at this Good News, as will all who love Jesus and Mary and their Church.
 +
 
 +
"It is strange then to realise that this Church – which is already, by far, the largest religious institution on the planet – is in fact enjoying global growth on an unprecedented scale. In 1950, the world’s Catholic population was 437 million, a figure that grew to 650 million by 1970, and to around 1.2 billion today. Put another way, Catholic numbers have doubled since 1970, and that change has occurred during all the recent controversies and crises within the Church, all the debates following Vatican II and all the claims about the rise of secularism.
 +
 
 +
Nor does the rate of growth show any sign of diminishing. By 2050, a conservative estimate suggests there should be at least 1.6 billion Catholics.
 +
 
 +
I spoke about global growth, and that “global” element demands emphasis. The Church has an excellent claim to have invented globalisation, and that goes far towards explaining just why its numbers are actually booming. Throughout history there had been so many so-called “world empires” which in reality were mainly confined to Eurasia. Only in the 16th century did the Spanish and Portuguese empires truly span the globe. For me, true globalisation began in 1578, when the Catholic Church established its diocese at Manila, in the Philippines – as a suffragan see of Mexico City, on the other side of the immense Pacific Ocean.
 +
 
 +
Those once mighty empires are long departed, but their ghosts remain in the thriving Catholic populations of Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines, which today constitute the Church’s three largest population centres. Mexico’s overall population has swelled from 50 million in 1970 to 121 million today, so of course there are lots more Catholics in that country. The Philippines, meanwhile, today claims 80 million Catholics, a number that will likely increase to well over 100 million by 2050. Last year, there were more Catholic baptisms in that country than in France, Spain, Italy and Poland combined.
 +
 
 +
A cynical observer might object that Church growth is solely the result of surging populations in particular regions where Catholicism happens to be the default religion. Certainly, as always, demographics plays its part in religious change, but this is by no means the whole story, and the clearest proof of this is found in Africa. Back in 1900, Africa had perhaps 10 million Christians of all denominations, constituting some 10 per cent of the whole population. Today, there are half a billion African Christians, accounting for half the continental population, and that number should exceed a billion by the 2040s.
 +
 
 +
This phenomenal growth – which is, incidentally, by far the largest quantitative change that has ever occurred in any religion, anywhere – is in part the result of the continent’s overall population growth.
 +
 
 +
In 1900, there were three Europeans for every African. By 2050, there will be three Africans for every European. But this expansion is also, clearly, the result of mass conversions. During the 20th century, some 40 per cent of Africa’s people shifted their allegiance from older primal faiths to Christianity.
 +
 
 +
Although Catholics do not represent the whole of this African story, they are a very significant part of it. In 1900, the whole of Africa had just a couple of million Catholics, but that number grew to 130 million by the end of the century, and today it approaches 200 million. If current trends continue, as they show every sign of doing, then by the 2040s there will be some 460 million African Catholics. Incredibly, that number would be greater than the total world population of Catholics as it stood in 1950.
 +
 
 +
Already by about 2030, we will cross a historic milestone when the number of Catholics in Africa will exceed the number for Europe. A few years after that, Africa will overtake Latin America to claim the title of the most Catholic continent. Within just a generation from now, a list of the 10 nations with the largest Catholic populations will include several names where Catholicism was virtually new in 1900: African lands such as Nigeria, Uganda, Tanzania and the Democratic Republic
 +
of Congo.
 +
 
 +
Now, there are some problems with these numbers. I have been citing official Church figures, but those counts of the faithful are actually quite flawed. If you look at survey evidence of religious belief, you’ll find a major disparity between the number of people claiming to be Catholic versus the totals reported by Church authorities. But that gap is not what we might intuitively suspect. Far from optimistically over-counting the faithful, the African Church is systematically under-counting, and by a whopping 20 per cent. They might be too busy baptising people to keep very good records.
 +
 
 +
Nor is this just an African story. Just since 1980, the total number of African Catholics grew by 238 per cent, while the equivalent rate in Asia was 115 per cent, and 56 per cent in the Americas.
 +
 
 +
Of course, if you want to see Catholic growth in action, you don’t have to make the effort to travel to Africa or Asia, as booming Catholic Africa and Asia are coming to you. In recent decades, many millions of migrants from the global South have travelled northwards, and a great many of those are Catholic. We see plenty of evidence of this in British churches, and especially in the country’s old and revived pilgrimage sites, but similar patterns can be seen across Europe. Look at the number of parishes in historically Catholic Europe – in Ireland or France, say – which are now graced by priests from Nigeria or Vietnam.
 +
 
 +
This reality was brought home to me when I visited Denmark, which is historically one of the continent’s least Catholic nations. But go to a small city like Aarhus and watch the floods of people surrounding the small Catholic church, where Masses are offered in languages as diverse as Vietnamese, English, Chaldean and Tagalog (the last being the main tongue of the Philippines). The global Church comes home; or perhaps we should say, the empires strike back.
 +
 
 +
When we consider those African statistics alone, any suggestion of the Catholic Church “dying” or even stagnating is so wildly inaccurate as to be comical. Strangely, though, this is not the first time that at least some observers have felt that prospects for the Church were so dismal. Back in the 1890s, Mark Twain sagely observed that: “In this world we have seen the Roman Catholic power dying … for many centuries. Many a time we have gotten all ready for the funeral and found it postponed again, on account of the weather or something … Apparently one of the most uncertain things in the world is the funeral of a religion.”
 +
 
 +
See you at the graveside?
 +
 
 +
This article first appeared in the September 9 2016 issue of The Catholic Herald. To read the magazine in full, from anywhere in the world, go here."
 +
 
 +
Am on my phone now and at work. Will give the link when I'm back home. Can be found via Google. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 16:19, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
== The Catholic leadership is overly represented by Europeans. Poor Catholic countries/regions underrepresented ==
 +
 
 +
In 2019, the Catholic publication ''America:The Jesuit Review'' indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, 21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe, while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, 42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe, while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."<ref>[https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/05/17/college-cardinals-european-dominance-slowly-wanes In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes],  ''America:The Jesuit Review'', 2019</ref>
 +
 
 +
[[File:Geographic distribution of Catholic cardinals 2023.jpg|thumbnail|1200px|center]]
 +
{{Clear}}
 +
 
 +
'''Question:''' Why are poor Catholic regions underrepresented in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals? See also: [[Global Christianity]]
 +
 
 +
[[File:Hong Kong Christians at Gateway Camp.jpg|thumbnail|right|250px|[[Hong Kong]] Christians at Gateway Camp. In 2005, there were four times as many non-Western World Christians as there were [[Western World]] Christians.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30077 Is Christianity taking over the planet?]</ref>]]
 +
[[Christianity]] is the world's largest religion and it has seen tremendous growth over its 2000-year history.<ref>[http://users.adam.com.au/bstett/BChristianIncrease12.htm 2000 YEARS OF CHRISTIAN INCREASE]</ref>
 +
 
 +
In terms of its geographic distribution, Christianity is the most globally diverse religion.<ref>
 +
*[https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2014/08/27/many-religions-heavily-concentrated-in-one-or-two-countries/ Many religions heavily concentrated in one or two countries]
 +
*[http://wwwgordonconwell.com/netcommunity/CSGCResources/ChristianityinitsGlobalContext.pdf Christianity in its global context]</ref>  Christianity has recently seen explosive growth outside the [[Western World]].<ref>
 +
*[http://pewforum.org/Christian/Faith-and-Conflict-The-Global-Rise-of-Christianity.aspx The global rise of Christianity - Pew Forum]
 +
*[https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30077 Is Christianity taking over the planet?]
 +
*[http://pewforum.org/Religion-News/The-stunning-growth-of-Christianity-in-China.aspx The stunning growth of Christianity in China]
 +
*[http://gratefultothedead.wordpress.com/2009/12/16/the-african-apostles-how-christianity-exploded-in-20th-century-africa/ The African apostles: How Christianity exploded in 20th century Africa]</ref> In 2000, there were twice as many non-Western Christians as Western Christians.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30077 Is Christianity taking over the planet?]</ref>  In 2005, there were four times as many non-Western Christians as there were Western World Christians.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30077 Is Christianity taking over the planet?]</ref> There are now more non-Western missionaries than Western missionaries.<ref>[https://www.wnd.com/?pageId=30077 Is Christianity taking over the planet?]</ref> See also: [[Growth of global desecularization#Global scope of indigenous evangelical Christianity evangelism|Global scope of indigenous evangelical Christianity evangelism]]
 +
 
 +
[[Phillip Jenkins]] published the book ''The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity''.
 +
 
 +
[[Chuck Colson]], citing the work of Jenkins, writes:
 +
{{Cquote|As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in ''The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity'', predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.
 +
 
 +
For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.
 +
 
 +
According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.<ref>[http://www1.cbn.com/biblestudy/how-christianity-is-growing-around-the-world How Christianity is Growing Around the World] by Chuck Colson</ref>}}
 +
 
 +
According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary's [[Center for the Study of Global Christianity]] (CSGC), which has made projections up until the year of 2050, the percentage of the global population that are [[Evangelicalism|evangelical Christians]]/[[Pentecostalism|Pentecostals]] is expected to increase.<ref>[http://www.gordonconwell.edu/ockenga/research/documents/wct-1-2.pdf Global adherents of the major religions/worldviews], Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary's Center for the Study of Global Christianity</ref>
 +
 
 +
Post made my [[User: Conservative]]. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 16:40, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
=== User: NishantXavier's response ===
 +
 
 +
Who says they are? You should read Nelson Mandela. "I am very grateful to the Catholic Church. When Black People couldn't yet sit on a Bus (in America), the Catholic Church had already made them Cardinals". Catholic means Universal. The Catholic Church is a Universal Church. She embraces, America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Oceania. Both Americas. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 16:51, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
Your sources Philip Jenkins, whom I quoted extensively above, and Centre for Global Christianity, agree with me. The Catholic Church invented Global Christianity. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 16:52, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
 +
 
 +
=== User: Conservative's rejoinder ===
 +
 
 +
As far as underrepresentation of non-European poor countries in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals, I will give my quote and its source again but this time add bolding for emphasis.
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In 2019, the '''Catholic publication ''America:The Jesuit Review''''' indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, '''21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe''', while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, '''42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe''', while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."<ref>[https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/05/17/college-cardinals-european-dominance-slowly-wanes In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes],  ''America:The Jesuit Review'', 2019</ref>
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The regions Africa and Latin America as a whole are not as wealthy as Europe. Western Europe tends to be more Catholic than Eastern Europe. Western Europe is generally wealthier than Eastern/Central Europe.
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I hope this clarifies things for you. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 17:00, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
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=== User: NishantXavier's rejoinder ===
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Your source mentions about 70% and leaves the remaining 30%. 21.8+48.5~70 (app). Similarly 42.5+17.5+10=70 exactly. Presumably the other 30% roughly of Catholics live in Africa and Asia and have 30% Representation in the College of Cardinals. So it all works out. There are some very Conservative African and Asian Cardinals. Cardinal Robert Sarah and Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith come to mind. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 17:13, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
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=== User: Conservative's rejoinder ===
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Please pay extra attention to the bolding below as I changed the bolding in the quote above to make things even more obvious.
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In 2019, the '''Catholic publication ''America:The Jesuit Review''''' indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, '''21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe''', while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, '''42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe''', while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."<ref>[https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/05/17/college-cardinals-european-dominance-slowly-wanes In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes],  ''America:The Jesuit Review'', 2019</ref>
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Are you denying that Europeans were overly represented in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals in 2019? If so, look at the bolding in my quote above 5 times more or 10 times more if necessary.
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Are you denying that Catholic Europeans tend to be wealthier than African Catholics?
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Are you denying that Catholic Europeans tend to be wealthier than Latin American Catholics?
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Also, please notice that my graphic above indicates that in 2023, 42 percent of the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals are from Europe so there wasn't a marked change from 2019 to 2023 as far as the percentage of the College of Cardinals being European. [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 17:41, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
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Your Math doesn't check out as I explained above. [[User:NishantXavier|NishantXavier]]<sup>[[User talk:NishantXavier|For Christ the King]]</sup> 18:03, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
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== 8 of the most bad/immoral Popes in history ==
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Below is a screen capture of Wikipedia's article [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bad_Popes The Bad Popes]:
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[[File:8 of the most immoral popes in history.jpg|center|1400px|center]]
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{{Clear}}
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<br />
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<br />
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'''Questions:''' Who do you think was the Catholic Church's most bad and/or immoral Pope? Why do you believe that he was the Catholic Church's most bad and/or immoral Pope? [[User:Conservative|Conservative]] ([[User talk:Conservative|talk]]) 18:15, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
  
 
== References List ==
 
== References List ==
  
 
{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}
 
{{Reflist|colwidth=30em}}

Revision as of 22:17, August 4, 2023

Prior to this debate, Conservapedia had the debate page: Debate:Does the Catholic Church have the biblical authority of Christ Himself to preach and to teach the truth forever?

To see a wide variety of debates on various topics, go to: Conservapedia:Debate Topics

Contents

The Dakotas, which have a large Lutheran population, are the most pro-life states in the USA

In our last spoken conversation, we talked about the Eucharist and about Martin Luther.

Read my new essay: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA

Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits". Here I stand, I can do no other! :) Conservative (talk) 18:33, July 30, 2023 (EDT)

Indeed he did. I myself have been criticized for speaking bluntly, but have learned to moderate my speech when speaking about people's religious beliefs. User:Conservative either forgot or hasn't been able to delete and vandalize the Debate page Nishant created where the two of you came down on opposite sides of a subject. Note the invective used against 1 billion believers as the basis of his position: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:52, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
One of the individuals who has used the User: Conservative account is a Catholic. Andy Schlafly, the owner of Conservapedia, is a Catholic and we have a very coridal relationship. NishantXavier and I have had cordial spoken conversations.
At the same time, both the Old Testament prophets and Jesus Himself had righteous indignation at times.
One of the staunchest Catholics in America, Michael Voorhees of ChurchMilitant.com (ChurchMilitant.com is the website of a Catholic apostolate based in the metro Detroit, MI), has railed against the significant problem of homosexual Catholic priests and high-up homosexual Catholic leaders as can be seen HERE and HERE.
"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven." - King Solomon. Conservative (talk) 23:16, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
"Deuteronomy 17:16. He [the king] shall not multiply horses — Though he might have horses for his own use, yet he was not to have many horses for his officers and guard, much less for war, lest he should trust in them."
2 Chronicles 1:14 "Solomon brought together many chariots and horses for his soldiers to ride."
Your quotations from scripture is what Conservapedia describes as a "Cafeteria Christian." RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:40, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
(ec) We all pretty much understand the church or a church to refer to people, the body of believers. But User:Cons doesn't qualify the assertion with "Catholic hierarchy" or "Catholic traditions". No. He makes the sweeping generalization that one billion members of the Roman Catholic Church are "a corrupt joke."
Now this isn't the first time User:Cons made inarticulate and foolish comments in a high profile discussion; if you try to clarify his meaning and intent with him, you will discover it's your fault for not being able to read his mind, rather than accepting his words "as is". By their fruits ye shall know them. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:22, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
RobS, I suggest you bring up this matter to the owner of the website as soon as possible. Godspeed. Conservative (talk) 23:36, July 30, 2023 (EDT)
Nah. I'm not a vindictive person or motivated by vindictiveness - nor in a contest to prove who the biggest butt-kisser on the server is. By their fruits ye shall know them. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:43, July 30, 2023 (EDT)

The Vatican City is located inside Italy.

The Italians have a saying: "A fish rots from the head down".

American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).[2] Under Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate!

See: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke.

Here I stand. I can do no other. Conservative (talk) 13:12, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

3 Shocking Things Luther said

Ok, Friends, let's look at 3 Shocking Things Luther said:

1. "The Book of James an Epistle of Straw", an insult to the Holy Ghost Who inspired the Apostle; Little Jimmy [the Apostle James] should be thrown into the stove: "Away with James! Its authority is not great enough to cause me to abandon the doctrine of faith … If they [referring to other teachers] will not agree to my interpretations, then I shall make rubble of it. I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove. It is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works … Therefore I do not want him in my Bible.4

Luther went so far as to assert that no one could be saved who did not agree with him on this crucial issue of justification."

From: https://chnetwork.org/2018/06/05/luther-the-rest-of-the-story-part-iii-through-open-doors-into-paradise/

St. James the Apostle, the First Bishop of Jerusalem, who authored the Epistle of James, was a Holy Martyr for Jesus Christ. He was called "James the Just" even by the unbelieving Jews because of his matchless Sanctity. He used to kneel in prayer before the Lord all the time. He used to worship God along with the Jews and minister to them when possible. They finally killed him by throwing him of a balcony when he was asked who Jesus Christ was. He answered them: "Why do you ask me concerning Jesus? Do you not know He is the Son of God, and seated at the Right Hand of Power"? Then they were angry with him and said: "The Just One has erred" and threw him to his death. Before he died, he prayed, loving and forgiving his enemies, "Lord do not hold this sin against them". This James is also mentioned by Josephus. He was a cousin brother or relative of Our Lord Jesus Christ, being the son of Alpheus. Some Jews held the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was because of the murder of James the Apostle. Here St. Jerome: "In the eighth book of his Antiquities he [Josephus] most openly acknowledges that Christ was slain by the Pharisees on account of the greatness of his miracles, that John the Baptist was truly a prophet, and that Jerusalem was destroyed because of the murder of James the Apostle." (St. Jerome on Josephus and James the Apostle)

What Holy Martyrdom did you ever suffer for Christ, o Luther, that you dare to attack St. James, and attack the Holy Spirit in doing so?

Here is St. James 2 which Martin Luther so much disliked: "Faith Without Works Is Dead 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [f]your works, and I will show you my faith by [g]my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [h]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [i]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [j]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Amen. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 03:28, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

See this also: "I do not admit that my doctrine can be judged by anyone, even the angels. He who does not receive my doctrine [of sola fide] cannot be saved.5" https://chnetwork.org/2018/06/05/luther-the-rest-of-the-story-part-iii-through-open-doors-into-paradise/

Extremely Foolish, Luther was. May God have Mercy on his Soul. In Jesus' Name. Amen. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 03:40, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

When Jesus Christ taught to store up Treasures in Heaven by Good Works like Alms-Giving, He sufficiently indicated that Good Works play a part in Salvation. We are Justified by Grace, then we receive Sanctification through a life-long process of Good Works, then we receive Final Perseverance in Grace and Full Salvation in the hour of death. The Lord said: "The one who perseveres to the end will be saved" (Mat 24:13). Will get back later. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 03:47, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

NishantXavier, I know that faith without works is dead.[3][4] And James also said, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works".[5] So Luther made a mistake in this area. I also disagree with some of the other things Luther said (Some of his comments on the Book of Revelation, etc.). And a very conservative Lutheran pastor told me that sometimes Luther contradicted himself and that his right-hand man Philip Melanchthon made corrections and clarified things.
But at the same time, my data shows that Lutherans are actually doing better than Catholics in the USA on the works front as far as pro-life issues and family life (Having kids) so they are doing quite well as far as works (And this is especially true among the most conservative Lutherans such as the ones in the Dakatas and conservative branches within Lutheranism). See: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA
With that being said, Michael Voris' YouTube channel ChurchMilitant.com (A very staunch Catholic YouTube channel) recently said on multiple occasions that homosexual clergy/leadership is still a significant problem in the Catholic church as can be seen at Pope's Fraternity Fest Flaunts Semi-Nude Gay Dancer | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Top Cardinal: Don't Blame Gay Priests For Sex Abuse | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Catholic — News Report — Priest Taps Jewish Scholar to Defend Homosexuality (Produced 10 months ago) and The Vortex — It's Homosexuality, Stupid! (produced one year ago) and The Vortex — Homosexual Hierarchy (Produced 2 years ago).
In addition, I do stand by my post at:The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits
And we disagree on various Catholic doctrines relating to papal authority (Ex-Cathedra, Mary/saints, etc.).
The bottom line is that the Catholic Church still needs significant reform and has a significant corruption problem. Also, I would argue that Luther's attempts to reform the Catholic Church did have some positive effects (Indulgences, etc.). Conservative (talk) 05:47, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Wud I tell ya? He gets called out on his invective and he doubles down. I'm of a mind to call him on the phone and cuss him out. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 14:42, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

No, you are mistaken. I know some in the Church in the US are liberal, and that's for other reasons. There are 1.3 BN Catholic Christians in the world, and some are extremely devout, especially in the developing world, like Africa and Asia, as well as many Good American and European Catholic Christians. Pope St. John Paul II is one such and he, even according to Gorbachev, helped bring down the Soviet Union.

But Martin Luther was a very wicked man and his Anti-Christian Revolution was not of God: "The followers of Martin Luther don't deny that he said Christ committed adultery three times. They do debate, however, if he was drunk or just being sarcastic when he said it.

Luther's blasphemous statement is recorded in what historians call his "table talks," a series of comments on various topics that were recorded by his followers. In one such comment, Luther remarked:

Christ committed adultery first of all with the woman at the well about whom St. John tells us. Was not everybody about Him saying, "Whatever has he been doing with her?" Secondly, with Mary Magdalene and thirdly with the woman taken in adultery whom he dismissed so lightly. Thus, even Christ who was so righteous must have been guilty of fornication before He died."

Pathetic Blasphemy! From: https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/luther-said-christ-committed-adultery-three-times

How right St. Thomas More was when he observed of Luther: "There are not many who have shown themselves Enemies of that See [the See/Throne of St. Peter in Rome] who have not, SHORTLY THERAFTER SHOWN THEMSELVES TO BE ENEMIES OF THE WHOLE CHRISTIAN RELIGION".

Since Luther said Christ was an Adulterer and committed Adultery 3 times and was "guilty of fornication", he was an Anti-Christian Blasphemer.

Since you quote Michal Voris so much, you should read the above also which is from Michael Voris' Church Militant. Martin Luther was a very wicked man, like those later heretics Darwin and Marx, who were also Vicious Racists NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:30, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

While my Site ReasonstobeChristian is and will remain Fairly Ecumenical, I will always oppose Anti-Catholic Bigots like Martin Luther was:

"Basic Introduction and the Purpose of this Website: Welcome, Dear Brothers, Sisters and Friends, to Reasons to become Christian!

Here, as the name of our site implies, we aim to discuss the answers to the Great Question: "Are there Good Reasons to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior or become Christian?" 2.6 Billion Christians around the world, including much of the free world, but also 360 Million Christians who suffer persecution for their Faith, have answered in the affirmative. This site explores Apologetic Reasons why we believe the remaining part of humanity should do the same also. Stay tuned!

From (1) Messianic Prophecies made 100s of years before Christ to (2) Incredible Design/Fine Tuning manifest in the Universe, to (3) Documented and Irrefutable Healing Miracles in Jesus' Name to (4) DNA: Amazing Scientific Proof a Most Wise Supreme Being created us and (5) Archaeological Evidence: "No archaeological discovery has ever controverted a Biblical Reference", prepare to be amazed, if you've never heard it before, how much evidence there is for Christianity!

And there's much more: (6) "The Great Saints and their Miracles in 2000 Glorious Years of Christendom" (St. Patrick, St. Francis Xavier, St. John Vianney, St. Padre Pio etc) (7) Eucharistic Miracles: A Very Powerful Evidence for the Truth of Christianity. (8) The Shroud of Turin: Wondrous Artifact/Relic of the Historical Christ's Resurrection. (9)The Resurrection: The Best Documented Fact in History- for which 11 Apostles suffered and died as Martyrs, many more of the 72 disciples doing the same, and witnessed by 500 Eyewitnesses - is Christ's Resurrection.

God bless you all, dear friends, and the deepest most burning desire of my heart is that we may all be saved, live happily here on Earth loving and serving Almighty God, and doing good to our neighbor, and then enjoying eternal happiness with Him, Jesus Christ, His Mother Mary, His legal father St. Joseph, all His Angels and Saints, forever and ever, world without end, Amen!"

From: https://reasonstobechristian.com/ NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:32, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

Zelensky's not doing so good with his neighbors in Donbas. Then again, Zelensky's not Christian, either. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 14:55, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
:Luther emphasized faith too much in relation to justification. The Catholic Church emphasized works too much (Indulgences, etc. ). The truth is somewhere in the middle because James points out that faith without works is dead. Conservative (talk) 17:28, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Additional response from a discussion participant and Subsequent Rejoinders

Michael Voris of ChurchMilitant.com (ChurchMilitant.com is the website of a Catholic apostolate based in the metro Detroit, MI) is a very staunch Catholic. And I know that you are not wanting to address his very credible and legitimate concerns about the significant extent of the homosexual Catholic priests/hierarchy problem so I regret to say that we cannot have a productive conversation about this matter. Conservative (talk) 06:35, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
More MSM brainwashing. It's only in the US and Germany where about 150-160 million of world's 1.3 billion Roman Catholics live, and atheist lawyers have attempted to bankrupt the church. Why don't they and their media sycophants go after public school teachers where the incidence of child sexual abuse is much more frequent, by a factor of more than 100. Oh, public schools and public school teachers are a sacred institution. We can't have people losing faith and confidence in government and government schools. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:05, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Update: your MSM, which you put so much faith and trust in, now says homosexuality is "normal". So why the focus on demonizing Catholic priests, other than the source of it is bigotry or aligns with an MSM news consumers bigotry? RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:08, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

You need to address why Martin Luther was an Anti-Catholic Bigot and Anti-Christian Blasphemer who hated Jesus Christ and called Him an Adulterer. If your friend called even you an Adulterer after you'd just spend some time with a woman without any sin, would you like that? How much less will Jesus Christ, the Sinless Lamb of God, like being blasphemed by Martin Luther? It won't go well for Martin Luther on Judgment Day unless he repented of his sins and retracted his errors before death. No one wants to see Almighty God in His Wrath after having said God committed adultery with 3 woman without repenting of that. If you don't address it, it stands unrefuted. Luther was evil. Luther was like Darwin and Marx. He hated Jesus Christ and he deceived and confused many, even some good people. Now, Ive unconfused you. If you want to know the Truth, that is.

You should know the Rate of Abuse in the Protestant Churches is higher than in the Catholic Church. Stats Subsequently. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:43, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

"In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources. The conclusion: “Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.”[xxi]

Finally, in the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and 3 percent.[xxii]"

https://www.catholicleague.org/sexual-abuse-in-social-context-clergy-and-other-professionals/ The Rate of Abuse (1) is about 1% among Priests (2) 2.5 % among Protestants (3) 5 % among Secular School Teachers. Priests have a 99% Success Rate in rooting out this evil Behavior, Protestants only 97.5% and Secular Teachers only 95%. It is a problem in all sections of societies, and it is a Crime and must be rooted out with 0% Tolerance and aim for a 100% Success Rate in rooting it out, but the facts show Priests do better than Pastors and Teachers. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:47, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

Adultry outside marriage is common among Protestant clergy, and virtually absent among Catholic clergy. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:23, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
NishantXavier, there are liberal portions or Protestantism and very conservative portions of Protestantism. I have been a member of conservative Protestant churches for a very significant portion of time and there has never been a big problem of conservative Protestant churches in my areas (I have lived in a fairly large city and in a big city. I also traveled throughout the USA for awhile for a U.S. corporation) as far as having a pedophilia problem (I don't know of a single instance of it occurring in the areas I have lived in as far as conservative Protestant churches), but there was a VERY BIG problem with the Catholic church diocese in my current area as far as far as pedophilia.
Nah nah, I can't hear you. I've decided to withdraw from this discussion.
Also, the Catholic Church has a lot of power that they can wield against proponents of homosexuality and practicing homosexuals within the clergy and church hierarchy such as ex-communication. But as Michael Voris shows they are not doing it and there is currently still a big problem.
Next, as far as your claim that Luther "hated Jesus Christ and called Him an Adulterer", it initially seems unclear in terms of historicity, etc after seeing counter-arguments at: Luther Said Christ Committed Adultery? A Primer on How to Respond. And Luther's life doesn't reflect someone who hated Jesus Christ.
Lastly, your total lack of response in relation to my Dakotas data or to address the Michael Voris' legitimate concerns shows me that you are not acting in good faith in our discussion. Given that I have given good-faith responses to your points, this is unacceptable and I have decided to withdraw from our discussion. Conservative (talk) 08:45, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Nishant, when User:Cons gets his butt kicked in a discussion, he always decides to "withdraw" to focus more on career. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:23, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Faith without works is dead.
User:Conservative: So, you decided to not do the work of standing for the Protestant faith? RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:30, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
I edited my reply above as far as the Luther/Jesus/adulterer allegation. Conservative (talk) 14:09, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
There is a discernable pattern here. User Cons makes an outlandish assertion, for example "the Catholic Church is a joke". If he hasn't deleted the discussion yet along with everyone's contributions, two years later he gets called out on the assertion. Rather than say, "I misspoke", "it was hyberbole", "I didn't mean to say...", or even "I erred", etc etc etc, he doubles down with "I stand by my statement" (User:Cons has stubbornness confused with conservativism) and then suddenly has more important things to do with his career and "withdraws" from discussion (but he'll be back in less than 24 hours with a fresh round of absurdities).
And these misunderstandings are always someone else's fault; someone else is being uncooperative or "acting in bad faith", but he'll be back after "withdrawing" from discussion in less than 24 hours, and does not consider openly lying to other editors as "acting in bad faith." RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:41, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Kudos to you, Nishant. He'll never admit it, but it looks Nishant caused User:Cons to rethink his position (even though he has stubbornness confused with conservativism). Will he ever apologize for calling the body of believers "a corrupt joke"? He's doubled down on the statement 2 years later. "Here I stand, I can do no other!"
Cons is what I call a lone wolf, he has trouble working with others. This began with him trying to organize a conspiracy cause he figured you were an anti-Putin Nazi. Now he has to rethink his whole life and his boasting of Protestant cultural achievements. Good work. By their fruits ye shall know them. Every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account. In judgement, I have more confidence in defending my swearing in dealing with ignorance and stupidity before God (which I'm sure he God has long experience with and can empathize with a loss of patience) than others who write thousands of articles on Atheism with a malicious attitude toward atheists and not for the glory of God. He told me as much. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:08, July 31, 2023 (EDT)


Cons: you can reply or withdraw just as you pls. I will continue documenting some errors of Martin Luther on my homepage for the record, and maybe write an article on it for my website later on. I did address your points (1) firstly, you brought up Michael Voris, so I mentioned he has documented this too. Luther did say it, and Lutheran scholars know it. Here it is again: "The followers of Martin Luther don't deny that he said Christ committed adultery three times. They do debate, however, if he was drunk or just being sarcastic when he said it." https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/luther-said-christ-committed-adultery-three-times Second, this or that incident is not the main thing, but the overall rate of abuse. It is lower in the Catholic Church than in Protestant churches. I'm not anti-Protestant, as my website clearly shows. I am however Anti-Anti-Catholics. If you can claim, "The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke", why can't I say: "The Lutheran Church is a corrupt joke". 1.3 BN Catholics, e.g. in Pro-Life Catholic Poland and elsewhere, are doing so much to advance the Cause of Life and Save Babies. The Lutheran church has but little influence by comparison, and moreover, like the rest of Protestantism, is hopelessly divided into many denominations. Anyway, I stand my ground. Luther was not a good man. Many of those who followed him, though, in ignorance, were good. Now that you see Luther did say this and other erroneous things - like Christians can commit Adultery 1000s of times a day, mortal sins which cause the soul to lose grace and the Holy Spirit - you should re-evaluate him imo.

In Christ. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 19:02, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

As far as my position on Luther and faith/works/holiness/sanctification, please go HERE which copies my post in the discussion thread below. Conservative (talk) 22:41, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
He's just spamming - another discernable pattern.
Look, User:Cons, I understand your posting about "the Catholic Church is a corrupt joke" is your version or attempt at being snarky; others might call it inartful, inarticulate, offensive, bigoted (or maybe just plain stupid). But the fact remains nobody is going to read your garbage until you apologize. And you doubled down on your inartful statement yesterday - so now you owe two apologies, and a reasonable amount of time to show you have learned from your errors. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:14, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

Some Further Errors of Martin Luther: Error #3, we can commit adultery and murder 1000 times a day without imperiling Salvation

So error 1 was (1) St. James is an Epistle of Straw, and not inspired, and "Jimmy" should be thrown into the stove, (2) Error 2 was that Christ allegedly committed adultery 3 times, which Lutheran Scholars btw don't deny is in his works, (3) Error 3 is now that we ourselves can allegedly also commit adultery not just 3 times but even 1000s of times a day without imperiling Salvation! This man was confused.

Here's the Source, Lutheran/Protestant: "“If men only believe enough in Christ they can commit adultery and murder a thousand times a day without periling their salvation.” — MARTIN LUTHER “This is truly one of the most disturbing things Martin Luther ever said. He would have done well to remember the words of St. Paul, ‘Shall we go on sinning that grace may increase? God forbid it!’ Romans 6:1-2.

I know that Luther is a very important figure for those in protestantism, for those in the cults, and even for secularists, since all of them trace their movements to a great degree to what Luther did.

However, the idea that a person can rape and murder their [sic] way into heaven because they [sic] have ‘imputed’ righteousness should be abhorrent to anyone who has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them [sic]. And I think statements like this should at least make us pause and reconsider whether his influence has been for better or worse.”

From: https://www.gottesdienst.org/gottesblog/2021/6/20/lbf6kdhqbxk3c0ks5ccd5ojvmxtqzy

And see this also: "On Sin

Christ taught: “He that commits sin is of the devil: for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose, the Son of God appeared that He might destroy the works of the devil.” - 1 John 3:8

Luther teaches: “A person that is baptized cannot, thou he would, lose his salvation by any sins however grievous, unless he refuses to believe. For no sins can damn him but unbelief alone.”[17]

"Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides... No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."[18] ('Let Your Sins Be Strong, from 'The Wittenberg Project;' 'The Wartburg Segment', translated by Erika Flores, from Dr. Martin Luther's Saemmtliche Schriften, Letter No. 99, 1 Aug. 1521. - Cf. Also Denifle’s Luther et Lutheranisme, Etude Faite d’apres les sources. Translation by J. Paquier (Paris, A. Picard, 1912-13), VOl. II, pg. 404).)

"Do not ask anything of your conscience; and if it speaks, do not listen to it; if it insists, stifle it, amuse yourself; if necessary, commit some good big sin, in order to drive it away. Conscience is the voice of Satan, and it is necessary always to do just the contrary of what Satan wishes." [19]" From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm (Luther, Exposing the Myth). NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:53, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

I dunno; I hope you are quoting this guy out of context, cause it looks awfully close to blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, attributing to Satan the work of God.
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
RobSGive Peace a Chance! 21:11, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
I don't expect to have a dialogue with NishantXavier because he doesn't respond to others points because he doesn't wish to. And trying to force someone to be reasonable is a fool's errand.
But for the sake of others, here is the context: Did Luther Really Tell Us to ‘Love God and Sin Boldly’?.
I'm diving deeper into theology and so far, it appears as if I favor conservative Methodism over conservative Lutheranism because it appears to better reflect the biblical view of faith/works and sanctification/holiness better. The Mennonites have some good aspects, but since the historical evidence points to believing in real presence theology in relation to the Eucharist, I can't see myself being a full-bore Mennonite. That being said, I am impressed with the pro-life behavior of the people in the Dakotas (high Lutheran percentage) which appears to be superior to that of the Catholics/Protestants in other states. See: Essay: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA. Remember, in Jesus' parable of the Parable of the Two Sons, the son who said he wasn't going to go out in the field and did was seen as more righteous than the son who said he was going to go out into the field, but didn't do it. So it is impressive that the Lutherans in the Dakotas are actually behaving better than the Americans in other states.
I will never become a Catholic due to some of their unbiblical doctrines such as the primacy of Rome and ex-cathedra theology; doctrines related to Mary/saints, unbibibical doctrines on penance/indulgences and other unbiblical doctrines such as purgatory. In addition, the Catholic Church is corrupt and has a history of corruption. Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits". For example, NishantXavier dodges the legitimate concerns of Michael Voris about the current problems of the Catholic hierarchy/clergy in relation to promoting and/or engaging in homosexuality.
Michael Voris' YouTube channel ChurchMilitant.com (A very staunch Catholic YouTube channel. ChurchMilitant.com is the website of a Catholic apostolate based in the metro Detroit, MI) recently said on multiple occasions that homosexual clergy/leadership is still a significant problem in the Catholic church as can be seen at Pope's Fraternity Fest Flaunts Semi-Nude Gay Dancer | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Top Cardinal: Don't Blame Gay Priests For Sex Abuse | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Catholic — News Report — Priest Taps Jewish Scholar to Defend Homosexuality (Produced 10 months ago) and The Vortex — It's Homosexuality, Stupid! (produced one year ago) and The Vortex — Homosexual Hierarchy (Produced 2 years ago). Conservative (talk) 22:29, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
I was wrong. Less than 24 hours after "withdrawing" from the discussion, he adds 4,000 bytes of spam. This is the discernable pattern - and fits a textbook definition of bad faith editing. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:51, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Big deal. So the Dakota Lutherans obey the Pope and are in bed with the corrupt Roman Catholic body of Christ. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:58, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
NishantXavier told me in the past how spotless/pure the Catholic church is. It isn't. For example, the Vatican hierarchy appears to be a cesspool right now. What Michael Voris is portraying as far as homosexuality within the clergy/hierarchy with real facts is more impressive than NishanXavier's "spotless/pure" zealot/ideologue line. Conservative (talk) 23:08, July 31, 2023 (EDT)
Here are other big recent scandals of the Catholic Church: Vatican braces for 2022 deficit as donations drop in wake of financial scandal and Accused Bishop Named Cardinal | Rome Dispatch. Conservative (talk) 23:19, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

In my city, due to all the Catholic pedophilia scandal lawsuits and spiritual bankruptcy, the following happened: the local Catholic diocese went bankrupt due to pedophilia lawsuits; mass attendance is down over 40% from a decade ago; there is a severe Catholic priest shortage so now various churches don't have priests; and the nun population is down 80% since I was child. So now there are a lot of ex-Catholics in my city's Protestant churches.

And today, I picked up a paper in my local grocery and lo and behold, there is Catholic priest pedophilia news on the front page of my cities local news paper.

But I haven't heard of one conservative Protestant church pedophilia church scandal in my city.

NishantXaiver's claims on how holy, spotless and pure the Catholic church is rings very hollow. Conservative (talk) 00:07, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Never interrupt your opponent when he's in the process of self-destruction. He that diggeth a pit shall surely fall into it. Looks like your anti-RobS conspiracy in Essay space is falling on deaf ears. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:01, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
It's not just me, a Protestant, who is finding the Catholic church's behavior wanting.
I cite: "Donations to the Holy See are expected to continue to drop following financial scandals currently at the heart of a high-profile Vatican trial. The institution is tackling an expected deficit of $37 million, according to its 2022 budget projection published Friday (Jan. 28)."[6]
NishantXavier, the pope and the papacy has been weighed in the balance by Catholic parishioners and they have been found wanting! Conservative (talk) 00:13, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
Now I understand the superiority of attack over defense. You can't defend your boasting about Protestant cultural legacies, so you go over to attack against me, Nishant, the Roman Catholic Church and its hierarchy. And this all started by trying to recruit Nishant into a pro-Nazi, anti-Putin campaign against me.
As a strategist, you don't seem to think things through, and don't prepare the necessary contingencies. Just attack attack attack, destroy destroy destroy. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:12, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
‘I thank you, God, that I am not like other people—cheaters, sinners, adulterers. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’
And I'll even throw in a few cuss words if it'll help to get your attention and focus. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:22, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
RobS, NishantXavier and I are closer in theology than you. In terms of justification, neither of us believes in cheap grace theology like you. And we both believe in real presence theology in relation to the Eucharist whereas you do not - despite Ignatius of Antioch a disciple of the Apostle John upholding it (And no early church historical figure is on record of not holding real presence theology in relation to the Eucharist). And we both go to a high church service whereas you attend a low church type service. I think NishantXaiver probably understands various aspects of theology and church history better than you. Conservative (talk) 00:33, August 1, 2023 (EDT)
Oh, God is pro-Nazi now, too, I suppose. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:45, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Error #4: The Book of Revelation is allegedly "neither Apostolic nor Prophetic", nor all that good and blessed to keep

"About this Book of the Revelation of John, I leave everyone free to hold his own opinions. I would not have anyone bound to my opinion or judgment. I say what I feel. I miss more than one thing in this book, and it makes me consider it to be neither apostolic nor prophetic...

Moreover he seems to me to be going much too far when he commends his own book so highly [Revelation 22]—indeed, more than any of the other sacred books do, though they are much more important—and threatens that if anyone takes away anything from it, God will take away from him, etc. Again, they are supposed to be blessed who keep what is written in this book; and yet no one knows what that is, to say nothing of keeping it. This is just the same as if we did not have the book at all. And there are many far better books available for us to keep ... I can in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it." From: https://www.universitylutheran.church/luther-on-revelation.html

That says more about the spirit that guided you than the Spirit that guided St. John, Luther. Revelation is a blessed book and he who reads and keeps it is indeed blessed, as the writer rightly says.

Probably it was words like these on Good Works, from Lord Jesus Christ Himself, that so offended the misguided Martin Luther.

"Rev 3:4 "You have a few names [d]even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels .. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Christians are called to overcome sin, not commit adultery or murder 1000s of times a day. Those who do this will receive thrones in Heaven. They will be clothed in white and receive other rich rewards in the Kingdom of Heaven. Once more, Good Works matter, not faith alone. See Revelation 2 also which confirms this point.

Rev 2:23b: "...And I will give to each one of you according to your works."

Rev 2:26: "26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—"

Rev 22:7: "7 “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”"

Rev 22:14 "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city."

Rev 22:12: "12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 19:10, July 31, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's response

The Book of Revelation is the capstone of the Bible and a majestic book where good triumphs over evil. Luther dropped the ball when it came to the Book of Revelation and the biblical book of James. Conservative (talk) 17:36, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Errors 5, 6 and More of Martin Luther, on Faith and Good Works, on the Peasant Rebellion, on Social Justice etc

This was an Anti-Christian Revolution from Martin Luther to destroy the Priesthood and the Holy Eucharist. Without the Priesthood, you have no Holy Communion. Jesus Christ in John Chapter 6 says you must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood, which is a reference to Holy Communion. Martin Luther is like Korah in the Old Testament who rebelled against Moses and the Priesthood and was condemned by God.

Continued: "Faith and Good works

Christ taught, “Let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your father who is in heaven.”[20]

Christ taught (in the words of St. James) “What shall it profit, my brethren, if a he has faith, but has not works? Shall faith be able to save him? So faith also, if it have not works is dead in itself.”[21]

Luther teaches: “For we account a man to be justified by faith alone, without the works of the law.” – On Translation and on the Intercession of the Saints

“It is more important to guard against good works than against sin.”[22]

"Good works are bad and are sin like the rest." -[23]

“There is no scandal greater, more dangerous, more venomous, than a good outward life, manifested by good works and a pious mode of life. That is the grand portal, the highway that leads to damnation." [24]

“He that says the Gospel requires works for salvation, I say, flat and plain, is a liar.”[25]

Social Justice Christ taught: “Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill.”[26]

Luther teaches[27]: “Peasants are no better than straw. They will not hear the word and they are without sense; therefore they must be compelled to hear the crack of the whip and the whiz of bullets and it is only what they deserve.” [28]

“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!” – “If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs”[29]

“I, Martin Luther, have during the rebellion slain al the peasants, for it was I who ordered them to be struck dead. All their blood is upon my head. But I put it all on our Lord God: for he commanded me to speak thus.”[30]

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm All with unimpeachable references and sources. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:49, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Germany's Peasant Rebellion predated the French Revolution.

"Peasants’ War, (1524–25) peasant uprising in Germany. Inspired by changes brought by the Reformation, peasants in western and southern Germany invoked divine law to demand agrarian rights and freedom from oppression by nobles and landlords. As the uprising spread, some peasant groups organized armies. Although the revolt was supported by Huldrych Zwingli and Thomas Müntzer, its condemnation by Martin Luther contributed to its defeat, principally by the army of the Swabian League. Some 100,000 peasants were killed. Reprisals and increased restrictions discouraged further attempts to improve the peasants’ plight."[7]

The French Revolution was against the ruler of France and partly anti-clerical in nature. Poor economic conditions played a part.

The Protestant reformer John Wesley caused greater Christianization in the UK and spread Christian values in terms of helping the poor. And Protestant values make a country more prosperous. See: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. A great many Catholic countries in Latin America plus the Philippines have corruption and poverty. It is widely said that John Wesley reforming of UK/British society helped prevent what happened in France - namely the French Revolution.

If the Catholic Church had made French society better, perhaps there never would have been a French Revolution. The French Revolution helped cause the secularization of France and Europe. See: French Revolution and atheism

The Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815) were a series of conflicts fought between the First French Empire under Napoleon (1804–1815), and a fluctuating array of European coalitions. The wars originated in political forces arising from the French Revolution (1789–1799) and from the French Revolutionary Wars (1792–1802) (the War of the First Coalition (1792–1797) and the War of the Second Coalition (1798–1802)), and produced a period of French domination over Continental Europe.[8]

As far as the Napoleonic Wars, estimates of the total French losses during the wars vary from 500,000 to 3 million dead. According to David Gates, the Napoleonic Wars cost France at least 916,000 men from 1803 to 1815.[9]

John Wesley

David Beidel wrote in his article The Bloodless Revolution: What We Need to Learn from John Wesley and the Great Awakening"

"In the 18th Century, most of Europe was on fire. Bloody civil wars and revolutions were decimating nation after nation. Unrestrained injustice, government and Church corruption, slave trade and the oppression of the poor created a powder keg for violence. Miraculously, Great Britain escaped the horrors of civil war and the brutal savagery that revolutionary anarchy engenders.
Few ancient monarchies are still in place today. The mystery of the UK’s capacity to honor the old guard, while raising up a more democratic system without a revolution, is a sociological wonder. Many credit the Great Awakening, in particular the Methodist movement, launched by John Wesley, for this extraordinary and peaceful transition.
Methodism unleashed an army of “little Christ’s” all over Europe. They cared for the poor, took in unwanted and abused children, fought unjust laws and labor conditions, visited prisoners, and battled against slavery; They joined hands with the Apostles and “turned the world upside down.” Eventually compassion became fashionable...
America is in desperate need of a Christ-infused revolution of compassion. We are a land of churches, who are well positioned to hear and answer the cries of our struggling communities. If a critical mass of congregations committed themselves to radically sharing the Gospel and passionately serving under-resourced/at-risk communities, we will see peace powerfully rise in these times of trouble. This will also enable, as in the days of John Wesley, wise reformation to take place because the true Christian Church is theologically hardwired to bring about peaceful, meaningful change that benefits all. I have written much about this in my book, Samaria, The Great Omission, and treasure every opportunity to strategize with churches who have a heart to minister in this way."
Let us stand in the gap as cultural/community peacemakers and healers in this season of sorrow and division. May our magnificent obsession be Jesus, the everlasting, ever loving, rescuer of the oppressed and Father."
But with the above being said, perhaps Luther could have tried to be a peacemaker between the peasants and the rulers at the time. In a peacemaker role, if Luther told the peasants to lay down their arms maybe they would have been more receptive to doing so. Romans 11 argues against armed revolutions against authorities. Conservative (talk) 14:18, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Catholic Church and Charity, Social Justice, Education, Healthcare etc

Catholic Church and Charity: "The Catholic Church operates numerous charitable organizations.

Catholic spiritual teaching includes spreading the Gospel, while Catholic social teaching emphasises support for the sick, the poor and the afflicted through the corporal and spiritual works of mercy. The Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental provider of education and medical services in the world.[1] The Catholic Church has had a long tradition of coordinating charity to the poor, something that was closely linked to the early Christian Eucharist, with the office of deacon being started for this purpose.[2] " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_charities Have to write some Conservapedia articles on these. Will do that subsequently as time permits. But these are all well known facts.

Catholic Church and Healthcare: "In modern times, the Catholic Church is the largest non-government provider of health care in the world. Catholic religious have been responsible for founding and running networks of hospitals across the world where medical research continues to be advanced.[28] In 2013, Robert Calderisi wrote that the Catholic Church has around 18,000 clinics, 16,000 homes for the elderly and those with special needs, and 5,500 hospitals – with 65 per cent of them located in developing countries.[2]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_health_care Q.E.D. Attacking Good Works is evil and sinful. That's what Luther did. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:52, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

And Protestant values make a country more prosperous. See: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. Protestant countries are generally more prosperous than Catholic countries. A great many Catholic countries in Latin America plus the Philippines have corruption and poverty. It is widely said that John Wesley reforming of UK/British society helped prevent what happened in France - namely the French Revolution.

The healthcare in Switzerland, which is largely Protestant, has far better healthcare than Latin America and the Philippines. Conservative (talk) 17:25, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Error #7 could be Anti-Semitic Hatred of Jews, which is very well known. But more on that later

Anyone who has read "On the Jews and their Lies" knows this. Christians must love Jews and minister to them, not be Bigoted Racist Anti-Semites who hate them, as Martin Luther was: "“Set fire to their synagogues or schools,” Martin Luther recommended in On the Jews and Their Lies. Jewish houses should “be razed and destroyed,” and Jewish “prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, [should] be taken from them.” In addition, “their rabbis [should] be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb.” Still, this wasn’t enough." https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/issues/issue-39/was-luther-anti-semitic.html NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:56, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

The Gospel does require works for salvation, Mr. Martin Luther. Christ teaches that plainly in Matthew 25, where He shows only those Sheep who not only believed in Him but also were fruitful in Good Works will enter the Kingdom of God. Why did the Rich Man in the Rich Man and Lazarus story go to Hell? Because he sinned mortally by failing in the Commandment to love his neighbor and take care of him, though he had plenty of money and this was very easy for him. And why did Christ in the Parable of the Talents sentence one Bad Servant to Hell, while Rewarding Two Others? Because those 2 others did Good Works from the Grace He gave them, and thus merited a Reward. The Wicked Servant refused to do Good Works and thus was justly lost. Luther impiously rejected Merits. When Christ said store Treasures in Heaven by Good Works like Alms-Giving, that's a Reference to the Treasury of Merits that the Saints have stored up by Good Works, and which we're to store up also in like manner: By Good Works. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:01, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

See Tobit on Good Works, Alms-Giving and Laying up Treasure, which the Lord Jesus Christ is referring to. Tobit is a wonderful Jewish Book that was in the Christian Canon for around 1200 years since 4th Century Catholic Church Councils (along with all other 72 Bible Books, 73 in all), before the anti-Catholic and anti-semitic bigoted heretic Martin Luther impiously took it out, thus violating the statement in Revelation not to do that, which Book of Revelation he also rejected:

Tobit 4: "6 And all the days of thy life have God in thy mind: and take heed thou never consent to sin, nor transgress the commandments of the Lord our God. 7 Give alms out of thy substance, and turn not away thy face from any poor person: for so it shall come to pass that the face of the Lord shall not be turned from thee. 8 According to thy ability be merciful. 9 If thou have much give abundantly: if thou have a little, take care even so to bestow willingly a little. 10 For thus thou storest up to thyself a good reward for the day of necessity. For almsgiving delivers from death and keeps you from going into the Darkness. 11 Indeed, almsgiving, for all who practice it, is an excellent offering in the presence of the Most High. 12 "Beware, my son, of every kind of fornication. First of all, marry a woman from among the descendants of your ancestors; do not marry a foreign woman, who is not of your father's tribe; for we are the descendants of the prophets. Remember, my son, that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, our ancestors of old, all took wives from among their kindred. They were blessed in their children, and their posterity will inherit the land. 13 So now, my son, love your kindred, and in your heart do not disdain your kindred, the sons and daughters of your people, by refusing to take a wife for yourself from among them. For in pride there is ruin and great confusion. And in idleness there is loss and dire poverty, because idleness is the mother of famine. 14 "Do not keep over until the next day the wages of those who work for you, but pay them at once. If you serve God you will receive payment. Watch yourself, my son, in everything you do, and discipline yourself in all your conduct. 15 And what you hate, do not do to anyone. Do not drink wine to excess or let drunkenness go with you on your way. 16 Give some of your food to the hungry, and some of your clothing to the naked. Give all your surplus as alms, and do not let your eye begrudge your giving of alms. 17 Place your bread on the grave of the righteous, but give none to sinners. 18 Seek advice from every wise person and do not despise any useful counsel. 19 At all times bless the Lord God, and ask him that your ways may be made straight and that all your paths and plans may prosper. For none of the nations has understanding, but the Lord himself will give them good counsel; but if he chooses otherwise, he casts down to deepest Hades. So now, my child, remember these commandments, and do not let them be erased from your heart. 20 "And now, my son, let me explain to you that I left ten talents of silver in trust with Gabael son of Gabrias, at Rages in Media. 21 Do not be afraid, my son, because we have become poor. You have great wealth if you fear God and flee from every sin and do what is good in the sight of the Lord your God." https://www.biblestudytools.com/nrsa/tobit/passage/?q=tobit+4:10-21 https://www.biblestudytools.com/rhe/tobit/4.html NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:12, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Looks like Cons stepped in more doo-doo with his pro-Nazi, anti-Putin crusade against me. Can't say he wasn't warned to keep silent about things he doesn't understand. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 11:32, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Both Luther and Moses lost their temper in relation to the Jewish people. Because Moses angrily struck a rock twice (instead of once), he never saw the Promised Land. The Bible says to be slow to anger. Both Moses and Luther should not have lost their tempers due to their frustration with the Jews. Luther's mistake was tragic - especially because it played a role in German anti-semitism. Later, Hitler exterminated millions of Jews.

Conservative (talk) 17:33, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Also, some complain that the Catholic Church was not oppositional enough to Adolf Hitler. I will not go into this as it would require a fairminded historical analysis and time constrains prevent me from diving into this matter. I have not read the article, but perhaps this article is fairminded: Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. Conservative (talk) 18:04, August 1, 2023 (EDT)


I am withdrawing from this discussion.PNG RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:35, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Nishant Xavier's Response

"Martin Luther was a German and spread Anti-Semitic Hatred of Jews. That is totally wrong and should be condemned. The Prophet Moses was himself Jewish and totally different. He worked Mighty Miracles to prove his Divine Calling. Martin Luther could NOT work one. He was not of God. God is showing you by these disorders that Luther was not of God but the founder of an Anti-Christian Religion. That's why He allowed disorders in Mohammed's Life, too, to show the same. Mohammed denied Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and Luther denied the Priesthood of Christ remains in the Church until the end of time, Luther falsely taught that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, and called Holy Mass a Blasphemy. God showed by these Anti-Semitic Hatred and other Disorders in Martin Luther's life including his Blaspheming Christ as an Adulterer how much He hated those wicked doctrines of Martin Luther. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:39, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

"Nevertheless, the Catholic-aligned Centre Party voted for the Enabling Act of 1933, which gave Adolf Hitler additional domestic powers to suppress political opponents as Chancellor of Germany. President Paul Von Hindenburg continued to serve as Commander and Chief and he also continued to be responsible for the negotiation of international treaties until his death on 2 August 1934." See: Catholic Church and Nazi Germany

It is a complex subject, so to be fairminded, I recommend reading: Catholic Church and Nazi Germany. Conservative (talk) 19:39, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Also, the Reichskonkordat ("Concordat between the Holy See and the German Reich"[1]) is a treaty negotiated between the Vatican and the emergent Nazi Germany. It was signed on 20 July 1933 by Cardinal Secretary of State Eugenio Pacelli, who later became Pope Pius XII, on behalf of Pope Pius XI and Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen on behalf of President Paul von Hindenburg and the German government. It was ratified 10 September 1933 and it has been in force from that date onward... Criticism of the concordat was initially from those countries who viewed Germany as a potential threat.[10] Conservative (talk) 19:46, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

One of the best known political parties of the 20th century was the socialistic "National Socialist German Workers' Party" (Nazi Party), headed by the evolutionary racist Adolf Hitler.[1][2]

More lies/misrepresentation. Catholic Church was responsible for Saving the Lives of Nearly 1 MN Jews during the Holocaust - according to the Best Jewish Scholars themselves: "Please spread this information far and wide. It seems that hardly any layman on the street knows this, whereas you have now the best Jewish scholars saying the Church saved 100s of 1000s of Jewish lives and likely close to 1 Million. The below source estimates 860,000.

From the Jewish Virtual Library [1]:

"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together." https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/860-000-lives-saved-the-truth-about-pius-xii-and-the-jews

"By 1943, the Vatican's many rescue efforts on behalf of Jews were being universally acknowledged. In the fall of 1943, the Jewish communities of Chile, Uruguay, and Bolivia sent letters to Pope Pius XII, and thanked him for assisting Jews (Actes, IX, pp. 498, 501-502, and 567).

The 1943-1944 American Jewish Yearbook said that Pius XII "took an unequivocal stand against the oppression of Jews throughout Europe." In his February 18, 1944 letter to Msgr. Amleto Cicognani, the apostolic delegate in Washington, D.C., Rabbi Maurice Perlzweig, the political director of the World Jewish Congress, wrote that "the repeated interventions of the Holy Father on behalf of Jewish Communities in Europe has evoked the profoundest sentiments of appreciation and gratitude from Jews throughout the world." (Actes, X, p. 140).

Two important Jewish leaders who worked with the Vatican to save Jews also expressed similar sentiments. "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in this most tragic hour of history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world," Chief Rabbi Herzog declared on February 28. (Actes, X, p. 292). In his April 7 letter to the papal nuncio in Romania, Chief Rabbi Alexander Shafran of Bucharest wrote, "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relive the sufferings of deported Jews... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance..." (Actes, X, pp. 291-292)."

From:https://reasonstobechristian.com/f/how-the-churchpapacy-saved-nearly-1-million-jewish-lives NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:52, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Korah in Numbers 16: The Biblical Type/Prefigurement of Martin Luther, with whom the God Who gave the Priesthood only to Moses was severely angry

"Korah, Dathan and Abiram 16 Korah son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and certain Reubenites—Dathan and Abiram, sons of Eliab, and On son of Peleth—became insolent[a] 2 and rose up against Moses. With them were 250 Israelite men, well-known community leaders who had been appointed members of the council. 3 They came as a group to oppose Moses and Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! The whole community is holy, every one of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord’s assembly?”

4 When Moses heard this, he fell facedown. 5 Then he said to Korah and all his followers: “In the morning the Lord will show who belongs to him and who is holy, and he will have that person come near him. The man he chooses he will cause to come near him. 6 You, Korah, and all your followers are to do this: Take censers 7 and tomorrow put burning coals and incense in them before the Lord. The man the Lord chooses will be the one who is holy. You Levites have gone too far!”

8 Moses also said to Korah, “Now listen, you Levites! 9 Isn’t it enough for you that the God of Israel has separated you from the rest of the Israelite community and brought you near himself to do the work at the Lord’s tabernacle and to stand before the community and minister to them? 10 He has brought you and all your fellow Levites near himself, but now you are trying to get the priesthood too. 11 It is against the Lord that you and all your followers have banded together. Who is Aaron that you should grumble against him?”

12 Then Moses summoned Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab. But they said, “We will not come! 13 Isn’t it enough that you have brought us up out of a land flowing with milk and honey to kill us in the wilderness? And now you also want to lord it over us! 14 Moreover, you haven’t brought us into a land flowing with milk and honey or given us an inheritance of fields and vineyards. Do you want to treat these men like slaves[b]? No, we will not come!”

15 Then Moses became very angry and said to the Lord, “Do not accept their offering. I have not taken so much as a donkey from them, nor have I wronged any of them.”

16 Moses said to Korah, “You and all your followers are to appear before the Lord tomorrow—you and they and Aaron. 17 Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it—250 censers in all—and present it before the Lord. You and Aaron are to present your censers also.” 18 So each of them took his censer, put burning coals and incense in it, and stood with Moses and Aaron at the entrance to the tent of meeting. 19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the tent of meeting, the glory of the Lord appeared to the entire assembly. 20 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 21 “Separate yourselves from this assembly so I can put an end to them at once.”

22 But Moses and Aaron fell facedown and cried out, “O God, the God who gives breath to all living things, will you be angry with the entire assembly when only one man sins?”

23 Then the Lord said to Moses, 24 “Say to the assembly, ‘Move away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram.’”

25 Moses got up and went to Dathan and Abiram, and the elders of Israel followed him. 26 He warned the assembly, “Move back from the tents of these wicked men! Do not touch anything belonging to them, or you will be swept away because of all their sins.” 27 So they moved away from the tents of Korah, Dathan and Abiram. Dathan and Abiram had come out and were standing with their wives, children and little ones at the entrances to their tents.

28 Then Moses said, “This is how you will know that the Lord has sent me to do all these things and that it was not my idea: 29 If these men die a natural death and suffer the fate of all mankind, then the Lord has not sent me. 30 But if the Lord brings about something totally new, and the earth opens its mouth and swallows them, with everything that belongs to them, and they go down alive into the realm of the dead, then you will know that these men have treated the Lord with contempt.”

31 As soon as he finished saying all this, the ground under them split apart 32 and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them and their households, and all those associated with Korah, together with their possessions. 33 They went down alive into the realm of the dead, with everything they owned; the earth closed over them, and they perished and were gone from the community. 34 At their cries, all the Israelites around them fled, shouting, “The earth is going to swallow us too!”

35 And fire came out from the Lord and consumed the 250 men who were offering the incense.

36 The Lord said to Moses, 37 “Tell Eleazar son of Aaron, the priest, to remove the censers from the charred remains and scatter the coals some distance away, for the censers are holy— 38 the censers of the men who sinned at the cost of their lives. Hammer the censers into sheets to overlay the altar, for they were presented before the Lord and have become holy. Let them be a sign to the Israelites.”

39 So Eleazar the priest collected the bronze censers brought by those who had been burned to death, and he had them hammered out to overlay the altar, 40 as the Lord directed him through Moses. This was to remind the Israelites that no one except a descendant of Aaron should come to burn incense before the Lord, or he would become like Korah and his followers." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:50, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Martin Luther on Sacred Scripture

"Sacred Scripture

Christ taught: " For I testify to every one that hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any man shall add to these things, God shall add unto him the plagues written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book.”[60]

Luther teaches: "To my mind it (the book of the Apocalypse) bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character... Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it."[61]...

Luther had a perverse habit of freely falsifying scripture to justify his purposes.

"The history of Jonah is so monstrous that it is absolutely incredible."[63]

"The book of Esther I toss into the Elbe. I am such an enemy to the book of Esther that I wish it did not exist, for it Judaizes too much and has in it a great deal of heathenish foolishness."[64]

"Of very little worth is the Book of Baruch, whoever the worthy Baruch might be."[65]

"...the epistle of St. James is an epistle full of straw, because it contains nothing evangelical."[66] "

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:53, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

The Index Librorum Prohibitorum of the Catholic Church included various translations of the Bible. In most cases, the bans on pious lay people possessing or using Bibles were related to vernacular Bible editions. Clerics were never forbidden to possess the Vulgate Bible translation in the Latin language.[11]

Luther encouraged reading the Bible and translated the Bible into German. American Protestants spend far more time reading the Bible than American Catholics according to survey data.[12] American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).[13]

Various Christian groups which have a high view of Scripture have various views on the Apocrypha. Time constraints prevent me from going into this matter and frankly this is an issue I plan on studying more about. Conservative (talk) 18:22, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

With that being said, Luther's understanding/views of the book of James and Revelation was weak. Conservative (talk) 18:09, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Xavier's Counter-Rebuttal

It was Catholic Christian Europe that invented the Printing Press and the First Book printed in Catholic Christian was the Holy Gutenberg Bible. It included the Deuterocanonicals. Luther lied and defamed and slandered the Holy Catholic Church and Her Glorious Accomplishments. Read about St. Thomas Aquinas - whom even Secularists respect for his Towering Intellect and Angelic Devotion - and St. Francis of Assisi, St. Catherine of Sienna, St. Bernard (whom even Calvin and Luther praised), and St. Bonaventure among tons of other Medieval Saints. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:20, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Dave Armstrong and Will Durant on this issue

"Secular historian Will Durant gives an apt summary of how a Catholic would have viewed all these early happenings:

Your emphasis on faith as against works was ruinous . . . for a hundred years charity almost died in the centers of your victory . . . You destroyed nearly all the schools we had established, and you weakened to the verge of death the universities that the Church had created and developed. Your own leaders admit that your disruption of the faith led to a dangerous deterioration of morals both in Germany and England. “You let loose a chaos of individualism in morals, philosophy, industry, and government. You took all the joy and beauty out of religion . . . you condemned the masses of mankind to damnation as ‘reprobates,’ and consoled an insolent few with the pride of ‘election’ and salvation. You stifled the growth of art, and wherever you triumphed classical studies withered.

You expropriated Church property to give it to the state and the rich, but you left the poor poorer than before, and added contempt to misery . . . You rejected the papacy only to exalt the state: you gave to selfish princes the right to determine the religion of their subjects . . . You divided nation against nation, and many a nation and city against itself; you wrecked the international moral checks on national powers, and created a chaos of warring national states . . . You claimed the right of private judgment, but you denied it to others as soon as you could . . .

Every man becomes a pope, and judges the doctrines of religion before he is old enough to comprehend the functions of religion in society and morals . . . A kind of disintegrative mania, unhindered by any . . . authority, throws your followers into such absurd and violent disputes that men begin to doubt all religion, and Christianity itself would be dissolved . . . were it not that the Church stands firm amid all the fluctuations of opinion and argument . . . the one fold that can preserve religion. (The Reformation, 936-937)

Can’t you see any of this? Does party affiliation so bias you that you can’t even imagine how all this would look from a Catholic perspective in 1530, 1541 or 1561?"

From: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/davearmstrong/2018/11/dialogue-w-lutheran-historian-on-16th-century-intolerance.html NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:22, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's response

What country do impoverished people and people love to flee to? The country of the USA which has a Protestant majority. Protestant countries generally have more prosperity and freedom than Catholic countries (Northern Europe, USA, Australia, Canada, etc. are Protestant. Latin America and the Philippines are heavily Catholic.). Conservative (talk)

Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism: The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a highly influential 1905 book by sociologist Max Weber. The ethic consists of hard work, disdain for leisure, competitive spirit and a profit motive to provide an incentive to achieve.

Despite being an atheist, Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[3] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Protestant missionaries and economic development statistics

The atheist Harvard University historian Niall Ferguson declared: "Through a mixture of hard work and thrift the Protestant societies of the North and West Atlantic achieved the most rapid economic growth in history."[4]

See also: Protestant cultural legacies

The article "The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries" published in Christianity Today notes:

“ In his fifth year of graduate school, Woodberry created a statistical model that could test the connection between missionary work and the health of nations. He and a few research assistants spent two years coding data and refining their methods. They hoped to compute the lasting effect of missionaries, on average, worldwide...

One morning, in a windowless, dusty computer lab lit by fluorescent bulbs, Woodberry ran the first big test. After he finished prepping the statistical program on his computer, he clicked "Enter" and then leaned forward to read the results.

"I was shocked," says Woodberry. "It was like an atomic bomb. The impact of missions on global democracy was huge. I kept adding variables to the model—factors that people had been studying and writing about for the past 40 years—and they all got wiped out. It was amazing. I knew, then, I was on to something really important."

Woodberry already had historical proof that missionaries had educated women and the poor, promoted widespread printing, led nationalist movements that empowered ordinary citizens, and fueled other key elements of democracy. Now the statistics were backing it up: Missionaries weren't just part of the picture. They were central to it...

Areas where Protestant missionaries had a significant presence in the past are on average more economically developed today, with comparatively better health, lower infant mortality, lower corruption, greater literacy, higher educational attainment (especially for women), and more robust membership in nongovernmental associations.

In short: Want a blossoming democracy today? The solution is simple—if you have a time machine: Send a 19th-century missionary...

...at a conference presentation in 2002, Woodberry got a break. In the room sat Charles Harper Jr., then a vice president at the John Templeton Foundation, which was actively funding research on religion and social change. (Its grant recipients have included Christianity Today.) Three years later, Woodberry received half a million dollars from the foundation's Spiritual Capital Project, hired almost 50 research assistants, and set up a huge database project at the University of Texas, where he had taken a position in the sociology department. The team spent years amassing more statistical data and doing more historical analyses, further confirming his theory.

...Woodberry's historical and statistical work has finally captured glowing attention. A summation of his 14 years of research—published in 2012 in the American Political Science Review, the discipline's top journal—has won four major awards, including the prestigious Luebbert Article Award for best article in comparative politics. Its startling title: "The Missionary Roots of Liberal Democracy."

...over a dozen studies have confirmed Woodberry's findings. The growing body of research is beginning to change the way scholars, aid workers, and economists think about democracy and development.[5]

”
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Auguste Comte on the above

"Auguste Comte also writes:

"`The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached.' (Philosophie Positive, vol.4, p.51).

"What makes, however, Protestant persecutions specially revolting is the fact that they were absolutely inconsistent with the primary doctrine of Protestantism - the right of private judgment in matters of religious belief! Nothing can be more illogical than at one moment to assert that one may interpret the Bible to suit himself, and at the next to torture and kill him for having done so!

"Nor should we ever forget that . . . the Protestants were the aggressors, the Catholics were the defenders. The Protestants were attempting to destroy the old, established Christian Church, which had existed 1500 years, and to replace it by something new, untried and revolutionary. The Catholics were upholding a Faith, hallowed by centuries of pious associations and sublime achievements; the Protestants, on the contrary, were fighting for a creed . . . which already was beginning to disintegrate into hostile sects, each of which, if it gained the upper hand, commenced to persecute the rest! . . . All religious persecution is bad; but in this case, of the two parties guilty of it, the Catholics certainly had the more defensible motives for their conduct.

"At all events, the argument that the persecutions for heresy, perpetrated by the Catholics, constitute a reason why one should not enter the Catholic Church, has not a particle more force than a similar argument would have against one's entering the Protestant Church. In both there have been those deserving of blame in this respect, and what applies to one applies also to the other." (92:204-5,209-l0)"

And people are increasingly thinking of moving to countries in Asia like the Philippines those in Europe like Ireland and Poland so that does not work. Store your Treasures in Heaven, not on Earth. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:29, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Auguste Comte was an atheist. State atheism/communist regimes have been tyrannical.

Friedrich Hayek was highly critical of Comte's totalitarian ideas.[6]

Joe Biden, a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had. Protestant countries, like the USA have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See my content higher up on this page and see: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism Conservative (talk) 18:44, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Catholic Maryland: The First Tolerant American Colony

"8. Catholic Maryland: The First Tolerant American Colony

A. Patrick O'Hare

"Catholics . . . were the first in America to proclaim and to practice civil and religious liberty . . . The colony established by Lord Baltimore in Maryland granted civil and religious liberty to all who professed different beliefs . . . At that very time the Puritans of New England and the Episcopalians of Virginia were busily engaged in persecuting their brother Protestants for consciences' sakes and the former were . . . hanging `witches'." (50:300-01)

B. Martin Marty (P)

"Baltimore . . . welcomed, among other English people, even the Catholic-hating Puritans (8) . . . In January of 1691 . . . the new regime brought hard times for Catholics as the Protestants closed their church, forbade them to teach in public . . . but . . . the little outpost of practical Catholic tolerance had left its mark of promise on the land." (9)

C. John Tracy Ellis

"For the first time in history . . . all churches would be tolerated, and . . . none would be the agent of the government . . . Catholics and Protestants side by side on terms of equality and toleration unknown in the mother country . . . The effort proved vain; for . . . the Puritan element . . . October, 1654, repealed the Act of Toleration and outlawed the Catholics . . . condemning ten of them to death, four of whom were executed . . . From . . . 1718 down to the outbreak of the Revolution, the Catholics of Maryland were cut off from all participation in public life, to say nothing of the enactments against their religious services and . . . schools for Catholic instruction . . . During the half-century the Catholics had governed Maryland they had not been guilty of a single act of religious oppression." (10)

D. Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (P)

"In the 17th century the most notable instances of practical toleration were the colonies of Maryland, founded by Lord Baltimore in 1632 for persecuted Catholics, which offered asylum also to Protestants, and of Rhode Island, founded by Roger Williams." (78:1383)

Stories of Protestant intolerance in America prior to 1789 could be multiplied indefinitely. Jefferson and Madison, in pushing for complete religious freedom, were reacting primarily to these inter-Protestant wars for dominance, not the squabbles of post-Reformation Europe. Here we are concerned with the immediate era of the Protestant Revolution - roughly 1517 to 1600, so the above anecdotes will have to suffice as altogether typical examples.

9. Conclusion (Will Durant)

"The principle which the Reformation had upheld in the youth of its rebellion - the right of private judgment - was as completely rejected by the Protestant leaders as by the Catholics . . . Toleration was now definitely less after the Reformation than before it." (122:456/11)"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:24, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

William Penn as a young soldier

William Penn is far more well-known for allowing religious freedom and tolerance.

William Penn (24 October [O.S. 14 October] 1644 – 10 August [O.S. 30 July 1718] 1718) was an English writer, religious thinker, and influential Quaker who founded the Province of Pennsylvania during the British colonial era. Penn was an advocate of democracy and religious freedom known for his amicable relations and successful treaties with the Lenape Native Americans who had resided in present-day Pennsylvania prior to European settlements in the state.[14]

He was a pacifist Quaker.

Penn's new government originated the principles of representative government, separation of church and state, and elimination of nobility and ranks,[1] while producing almost exactly a century before the U.S. Constitution concepts such as an elected 2-house Congress to pass bills, religious freedom, freedom of speech, and a Bill of Rights. He also, in 1693, drafted a lengthy proposal for a future European Union or as he called it, a "European League, or Confederacy". Conservative (talk) 18:39, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

A Substantial Portion of US Population is Catholic

"With 23 percent of the United States' population as of 2018, the Catholic Church is the country's second largest religious grouping, after Protestantism, and the country's largest single church or Christian denomination where Protestantism is divided into separate denominations.[2] In a 2020 Gallup poll, 25% of Americans said they were Catholic.[3] The United States has the fourth largest Catholic population in the world, after Brazil, Mexico, and the Philippines.[4]"

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_in_the_United_States NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:30, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

Focusing exclusively or near exclusively on this world and neglecting to work to gain Treasures in the next, by Good Works, by Charity, by frequenting the Sacraments, by devoutly participating in the Holy Mass, by going for Eucharistic Adoration, by making the Stations of the Cross, by participating in the Holy Rosary, by countless other Good Works like Evangelism (1.3 BN Catholics wouldn't have come about without Catholic Evangelism) etc is hardly something to brag about. Store your Treasures in Heaven, not Earth. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:33, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Joe Biden, a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had. Protestant majority countries, like the USA, have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See my content higher up on this page and see: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism Conservative (talk) 18:44, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

NishXaevier's Rebuttal

Unreasonable in the extreme to say that. Joe Biden is Catholic like Barrack Obama is Protestant. Look to those like Ron De Santis and Lila Rose as Real Catholics. They are hardworking, prosperous, devout, Pro-Life and wonderful Catholic Christians who have done much for the Holy Name of Jesus Christ Our Lord as well as being fairly prosperous in their own personal life. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:49, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

The Catholic Church can ex-communicate Joe Biden who is pro-abortion, pro-gay and corrupt. The Vatican has not done this or even strenuously raised the issue.

Question: The Catholic Church can ex-communicate the Catholic Joe Biden who is pro-abortion, pro-gay and corrupt. Why haven't they done this?

As far ex-communicating Joe Biden, the Vatican has not done this or even strenuously raised the issue.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

The Pride of Martin Luther

"On Drunkenness

Christ Taught (in the words of St. Paul): “Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: Nor the effeminate nor liars with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards”[51]


Luther teaches: “We eat and drink to kill ourselves, we eat and rink up to our last farthing.”[52]

On Pride

Christ taught: “And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled” [53]

Luther teaches: “St. Augustine or St. Ambrosius cannot be compared with me.”[54]

“What I teach and write remains true even though the whole world should fall to pieces over it”[55]"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:57, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Key point: First of all, Lutheranism is not Luther. Today's Lutherans reject some of the things Luther taught. Philip Melanchthon, who was Luther's right hand man, disagreed with some of the things Luther said. Catholics have the prideful and unbiblical doctrine of "Ex-cathedra".

More importantly, Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits".

Lutherans are not known for lavish buildings, lots of expensive art collections and bank scandals (See: Vatican bank scandals). The Vatican is. Latin America and the Philippines are poor countries with lots of corruption.

The Vatican should be less prideful and sell off some of its riches. Please see: Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?

The Vatican City is the 18th wealthiest nation in the world per capita. (Kuznetsova, 2018).[15] With the election of Pope Francis in 2013, the secrets of the Vatican are slowly being unveiled as he strives for public transparency to try and put the many scandals surrounding the church to ease.[16]

The Vatican houses tens of thousands of pieces of art in its 26 museums, including the Sistine Chapel, which contains works from some of the most renowned artists in history.[17]

Please see: Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?
Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Martin Luther's Blasphemies against the Person of Christ: this man did not love Jesus Christ. He was His Enemy and hated Him

From above, continued:

On the Person of Christ

Christ taught, “Which of you shall convince Me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do not believe Me? He that is of God, hears the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.”[56]

Luther teaches: “Christ committed adultery first of all with the women at the well about whom St. John tell’s us. Was not everybody about Him saying: ‘Whatever has He been doing with her?’ Secondly, with Mary Magdalen, and thirdly with the women taken in adultery whom He dismissed so lightly. Thus even, Christ who was so righteous, must have been guilty of fornication before He died.”[57]

“I have greater confidence in my wife and my pupils than I have in Christ”[58]

“It does not matter how Christ behaved – what He taught is all that matters”[59] NishantXavierFor Christ the King 23:58, August 1, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Catholics don't know if Luther said this statement as its historicity is unknown because the historical argument is very weak. See: Luther Said Christ Committed Adultery? A Primer on How to Respond.

One of the 10 commandments is not bearing false witness.

It is unbiblical for Catholics to strenuously claim Luther said this when they don't really know that he did. Conservative (talk) 02:41, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

God, through the prophet Moses, said to not bear false witness.

Protestant Divisions and Mutual Animosities

"II. PROTESTANT DIVISIONS AND MUTUAL ANIMOSITIES

1. General Observations

Dissensions plagued Protestantism from the start, even though one would think that a religion stressing individualism and conscience would be free from such shortcomings and would promote mutual respect. The myth of Protestant magnanimity and peaceful coexistence (especially in its infancy) dies an unequivocal death as the facts are brought out:

A. Patrick O'Hare

"A volume might be filled with indubitable facts to prove the intolerant spirit of Luther and of the various sects which his rebellion originated. The quarrels, hostilities and jealousies that constantly arose among one and all made them a prey to the fiercest dissensions. They anathematized and persecuted each other . . . and indulged in the coarsest and vilest invective . . . The Lutherans . . . denounced and excluded the reformed Calvinists from salvation. The Calvinists roused up the people against the Lutherans . . . Zwingli complained of Luther's intolerance when he was the victim . . . but he and his followers threw the poor Anabaptists into the Lake of Zurich, enclosed in sacks." (50:293)

B. Calvin's Revealing Letter to Melanchthon

"It is indeed important that posterity should not know of our differences; for it is indescribably ridiculous that we, who are in opposition to the whole world, should be, at the very beginning of the Reformation, at issue among ourselves." (50:293)

Melanchthon replied:

"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." (92:88/12)

C. Johannes Janssen

Janssen, author of a 16-volume history of Germany during "Reformation" times, claimed that:

"The Protestant sects derided each other in just as immoderate and undignified a way as they one and all derided the papacy . . . Cursing and blaspheming were as frequent as praying was rare." (111;v.16:4-5)"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm NishantXavierFor Christ the King 00:00, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Latin America, which is very Catholic, has had a lot of wars, political assassinations and revolutions.

Latin America has a lot of Catholicism - although Protestants have recently been making big gains.

The Google search results of Latin American wars yields a lot of search results.

In addition, Latin America has had a number of violent revolutions and I cite: "Latin America was arguably one of the most "revolutionary" regions of the world in the twentieth century. It registered four "great revolutions": Mexico 1910, Bolivia 1952, Cuba 1959, and Nicaragua 1979."[18]

Also, Latin America has had a lot of political assassinations: List of North & South American Assassinations.

The Philippines, which is a very Catholic country, is known for many political assassinations/killings happening in recent times as can be seen at: Political killings in the Philippines (2001–2010) and List of assassinations in the Philippines.

Northern Europe, where the Nordic countries are and have a lot of Protestantism, are not known for a lot of violent revolutions and wars against each other. They are known for their prosperity and happy populations in terms of their history. Swizerland, which has a large Protestant population, is largely known for being a peaceful, prosperous and neutral country for much of its history. Switzerland - peace and prosperity!

Canada, which has a Protestant legacy, is not known for violent revolutions and political assassinations.

Latin America and the Phillippines are known for having a lot of poverty and political violence. Conservative (talk) 03:10, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

<moved this response below> NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:29, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative: Quick note about our recent Protestantism vs. Catholicism debates

Martin Luther in 1529, painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder

Thanks for keeping our debate fairly cordial. For the record, post-pandemic I am deciding what church to become a long-time member of.

I have an ecumenical Catholic friend. He recommended a Lutheran church in my area that holds to a Evangelical Catholic theology which I am currently attending. The term Evangelical Catholic (from catholic meaning universal and evangelical meaning Gospel-centered) is used in Lutheranism, alongside the term Augsburg Catholic, with those calling themselves Evangelical Catholic Lutherans or Lutherans of Evangelical Catholic churchmanship stressing the catholicity of historic Lutheranism in liturgy (such as the Mass) and beliefs.

But as I noted above, Lutheranism is not Luther. Today's Lutherans reject some of the things Luther taught. Philip Melanchthon, who was Luther's right-hand man, disagreed with some of the things Luther said (Catholics have the prideful and unbiblical doctrine of "Ex-cathedra").

Eventually, as far as my long-term church attendance, I will probably attend a conservative Lutheran church or conservative Methodist church or possibly a Mennonite church. Due to my knowledge of church history, I like going to high church type churches (See: What Was a Church Service Like in the Second Century?). The early church met for 3 hours for their Sunday services Unfortunately, in the West, most Protestant and Catholic church services are between 45-90 minutes long. I used to attend small nondenominational churches, but after learning more about church history, I like churches that incorporate early church practices better (See: What Was a Church Service Like in the Second Century?).

Long term, I will pick one type of church to attend and then visit other churches too.

But I did learn something in our debates.

The best friend leans Catholic, but still attends Protestant churches. His father was Protestant and his mother was Catholic. He suggested I break off our debates and spend more time promoting Christianity. I am in the midst of a few projects which promote Christianity. I am going to take his advice soon.

My best friend thinks that it is more important for me to help Christian evangelism/apologetics projects rather than debate a Catholic. In other words, he made an opportunity cost type argument. Conservative (talk) 03:57, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Joke from the comedian Emo Phillips:

"Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me too! Northern Conservative Reformed Baptist or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist?" He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist".

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalism Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region."

I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over."[19] Conservative (talk) 04:27, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Nishant Xavier's Rejoinder

I want to be Cordial, but I can't pretend great and important things aren't at stake. For one born Catholic, it is a mortal sin to lapse from the Church. Read Mat 16 and Mat 18. Christ mentions His Church in only 2 passages. It is in the Singular, and as a Visible, Teaching Church, a Church that hell can never conquer, a Church with Peter as its visible CEO or President, a Church that has the Power of the Keys, and thus the promise of being infallibly guided by the Holy Spirit until the end of time, such that what the Church through the Pope and the Bishops binds and looses on Earth is bound on Heaven, etc. Once you know no Protestant church can give you Jesus Christ in Holy Communion, why would you even want to belong to one? For those born Protestant, if they don't know better, it is ok. For those born Catholic, who then left, it is not. I will close with a famous saying of Italian Franciscan Priest, a Great Mystic who healed the Blind and worked Miracles in the Lord's Name, Saint Padre Pio: "Always stay close to the Catholic Church, because only the Catholic Church can give you Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist". Come back to the Church, brother, go to Confession, and receive the Holy Eucharist in the Catholic Church alone. If you're strong in the Catholic Faith, you can go to Ecumenical Fellowships if you want - I do too, but not for Holy Communion.

They can't give you that, because they don't have it. They don't have the Priesthood. Luther's Revolution was to destroy the Priesthood. Reread slowly all the sources and material I've given you: reread Calvin saying it is Preposterous they, who are in opposition to the Whole World, split into dozens of sects with mutually animosity right from the beginning, by which God showed this Revolution was not from him. It was a Babel, a new work of man against God. God's One Church has remained One from the beginning: One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic.

Latin America was once devoutly Catholic. Today there is a significant amount of Communist influence on the Continent. Pope St. John Paul II, a Devout Catholic was a Great Anti-Communist Champion and helped it to fall, and God will raise up similar Anti-Commie Champions in time to come to the aid and deliverance of His Church. We will trust in the Lord and patiently do His Work. He will raise up Saints to overcome any challenge/problem from Commie/Leftists in time. We're not bothered about it, we will work for it, but not leave His Church.

Vatican I: "1. The Son of God, redeemer of the human race, Our Lord Jesus Christ, promised, when about to return to his heavenly Father, that he would be with this Church militant upon earth all days even to the end of the world [3]. Hence never at any time has he ceased to stand by his beloved bride, assisting her when she teaches, blessing her in her labors and bringing her help when she is in danger." https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/first-vatican-council-1505 NishantXavier NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:28, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

NishantXavier you wrote: "Latin America was once devoutly Catholic. Today there is a significant amount of Communist influence on the Continent. "

While that is true, it is also true that liberal/leftist theology has infected part of the Catholic Church. For example, there is Liberation Theology within Catholicism and even many Catholics say the current Pope (Pope Francis who was born in Argentina which is a Latin American country) is too liberal. Liberation Theology was supposedly founded by Gustavo Gutiérrez, a Dominican priest and Peruvian theologian. It was influential in the Roman Catholic church in Latin America during the 1970s and 80s.

Liberation Theology is a type of Christian theology which focuses on the interpretation of Jesus Christ as a spiritual revolutionary figure. This view rejects the traditional practice of servitude to the state and religious institutional hierarchy, and views faith as a catalyst of revolution and empowerment, as well as justification of rebellion against secular as well as seminal hierarchy. It was created by the Communists in the Soviet Union to take down the church from within.[20]

I also cite:

"At a 2015 press conference in the Vatican hosted by Caritas International, the federation of Catholic relief agencies, Gutiérrez noted that while there had been some difficult moments in the past dialogue with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, liberation theology had never been condemned. Although he saw an increasingly clear emphasis on Church teachings on the poor, he did not consider that liberation theology was undergoing a rehabilitation, since it had never been "dishabilitated".[71]

In January 2019, during the World Youth Day in Panama, Pope Francis discussed changing attitudes to liberation theology during an extended discussion with a group of thirty Jesuits from Central America. He noted that he had a devotion to the martyred Salvadoran Jesuit priest, Rutilio Grande, even before he came to know Óscar Romero well. Francis commented that "Today we old people laugh about how worried we were about liberation theology. What was missing then was communication to the outside about how things really were."[72]"[21]

I am staying a Protestant. Given the Catholic Church's unbiblical doctrines and corruption, I will stay an ex-catholic. But I do have cordial relations with Catholics on the whole. In fact, I have a Catholic web marketing client because I like the work they are doing in a particular area.

Protestant internet outreaches are beating Catholic internet outreaches in web traffic (See: Internet evangelism). I am going to use the Protestant work ethic (See: Protestant cultural legacies) to help keep this occurring. I admire the Apostle Paul's zealotry and work ethic.

"Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified." - Apostle Paul, 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 (NASB)

"Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me has not been in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them - though it was not I but the grace of God that is with me." - Apostle Paul, the hardest working apostle of Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 15: 8-10 (NRSV)

The conversion of Paul by the painter Nicolas-Bernard Lepicie
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Catholic Answers on Martin Luther

"Be a sinner and sin on bravely, but have stronger faith and rejoice in Christ, who is the victor of sin, death, and the world. Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice: sin must be committed. To you it ought to be sufficient that you acknowledge the Lamb that takes away the sins of the world, the sin cannot tear you away from him, even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders” (Enders, “Briefwechsel”, III, 208) ...

Luther by the creation of his “universal priesthood of all Christians”, by delegating the authority “to judge all doctrines” to the “Christian assembly or congregation”, by empowering it to appoint or dismiss teacher or preacher, sought the overthrow of the old Catholic order. It did not strike him, that to establish a new Church, to ground an ecclesiastical organization on so precarious and volatile a basis, was in its very nature impossible (Maurenbrecher, “Studien u. Skizzen”, 334-336). The seeds of inevitable anarchy lay dormant in such principles. Momentarily this was clear to himself, when at this very time (1525) he does not hesitate to make the confession, that there are “nearly as many sects as there are heads” (De Wette, op. cit., III, 61). This anarchy in faith was concomitant with the decay of spiritual, charitable, and educational activities. Of this we have a fairly staggering array of evidence from Luther himself (Beard, op. cit., 145; *Döllinger, “Die Reformation“, I, 280-348). The whole situation was such, that imperative necessity forced the leaders of the reform movement to invoke the aid of the temporal power. Thus “the whole Reformation was a triumph of the temporal power over the spiritual. Luther himself, to escape anarchy, placed all authority in the hands of the princes” (Menzel, op. cit., 623). This aid was all the more readily given, since there was placed at the disposition of the temporal power the vast possessions of the old Church, and only involved the pledge, to accept the new opinions and introduce them as a state or territorial religion. The Free Cities could not resist the lure of the same advances. They meant the exemption from all taxes to bishops and ecclesiastical corporations, the alienation of church property, the suspension of episcopal authority, and its transfer to the temporal power. Here we find the foundation of the national enactment of the Diet of Augsburg, 1555, “eternally branded with the curse of history” (Menzel, op. cit., 615) embodied in the axiom Cujus regio, ejus religio, the religion of the country is determined by the religion of its ruler, “a foundation which was but the consequence of Luther’s well-known politics” (Idem, be. cit.). Freedom of religion became the monopoly of the ruling princes, it made Germany “little more than a geographical name, and a vague one withal” (Cambridge Hist., II, 142); naturally “seldom lingered there longer than in any civilized country save Russia” (ibid., 191), and was “one of the causes of the national weakness and intellectual sterility which marked Germany during the latter part of the sixteenth century” (ibid.), and just as naturally we find “as many new Churches as there were principalities or republics” (Menzel, op. cit., 739)." From the Catholic Encyclopedia.

From; https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/martin-luther NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:35, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's response

After this post, I am going back to bed as I have a long workday when I awaken.

Question: Are you going to pray to St. Jude Thaddeus that the Catholic Answers website finally surpasses the web traffic of Got Questions Ministries website which is also a Christian answers website? The Got Questions Ministries website is greatly beating the Catholic Answers website in terms of web traffic. St. Jude Thaddeus is the patron saint of lost and desperate causes. :)

Key point: Corporately, Protestant internet evangelism is doing far better than Catholic internet evangelism. See: Internet evangelism. For example, the Christian internet evangelism organization Global Media Outreach indicates that as of September 2019 over 1,900,000,000 "gospel visits" have occured via their websites.[7] Global Media Outreach works with many Christians around the world (see: Global Christianity).

If only the Vatican used its vast wealth to make Catholicism more competitive on the internet via a bigger web marketing budget!

On behalf of all Protestantism, I hereby declare victory over Catholicism on the world wide web! Olé! Olé! Olé! Conservative (talk) 05:21, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Flag of the Orange Order.

Key point: Corporately, Protestant internet evangelism is doing far better than Catholic internet evangelism. See: Internet evangelism.

If only the Vatican used its vast wealth to make Catholicism more competitive on the internet via a bigger web marketing budget!

On behalf of all Protestantism, I hereby declare victory over Catholicism on the world wide web! Olé! Olé! Olé!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Got Questions Ministries vs. Catholic Answers: Google referral traffic

See also: Internet evangelism: Christians vs. atheists

In December of 2020, the Christian internet ministry Got Questions Ministries saw a very large increase in its Google referral traffic according to the leading web marketing website SEMRush.

According to the article 1,000+ Winners and Losers of the December 2020 Google Core Algorithm Update the website Gotquestions.org saw the 7th biggest increase in Google referral traffic as far as the 50 domains that saw the greatest percent gain in Google visibility.[8]

Google uses over 200 factors to evaluate the quality and the relevance of a website to various topics.
The Catholic Answers website has lost a substantial portion of its Google referral traffic according to the leading web marketing company SEMRush.com.

Google uses over 200 factors to evaluate the quality and the relevance of a website to various topics.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Final note

Looking back, I should have focused on my current work instead of rejoining the debate. I am cranking down when it comes to focus, time management, priorities, and self-discipline. In the remainder of the year and in 2024, I am going to work hard on develop Olympian athlete like focus and discipline when it comes to my current priorities. Conservative (talk) 06:00, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Durant, Melancthon, Luther, Calvin, Selfish Princes closing Monasteries, Convents and other Bulwarks of Christian Civilization for Greed of Filthy Lucre for themselves

Will Durant: "438: But by 1527 the Lutheran "heresy" had become orthodoxy in half of Germany. The cities found Protestantism profitable; "they do not care in the least about religion," mourned Melanchthon; "they are only anxious to get dominion into their hands, to be free from the control of the bishops"; (1) for a slight alteration in their theological garb they escaped from episcopal taxes and courts, and could appropriate pleasant parcels of ecclesiastical property ...Since many monks and nuns now left their convents, and the public seemed unwilling to support the remainder, the Lutheran princes suppressed all monasteries in their territory except a few whose inmates had embraced the Protestant faith. The princes agreed to share the confiscated properties and revenues with the nobles, the cities, and some universities, but this pledge was very laxly redeemed. Luther inveighed against the application of ecclesiastical wealth to any but religious or educational purposes, and condemned 440: the precipitate seizure of church buildings and lands by the nobility. A modest part of the spoils was yielded to schools and poor relief; the princes and nobles kept the rest. "Under cover of the Gospel," wrote Melancthon (1530), "The princes were only intent on the plunder of the churches." (3)"

Pathetic. Those were our Convents and Monasteries, and those Strongholds of Christian Civilization would have helped Evangelize the whole wolrd for Christ if not those like Judas who loved money too much unlawfully usurped them from us and from their rightful use toward the spread of Christ's Kingdom. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:40, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

"A house divided against itself cannot stand", the Lord Himself said. That's why in Christendom as a whole we need to sort this disagreement out - and we can do so in as Cordial and Pleasant a manner as possible, yet without denying the seriousness of the issues at stake - before we can truly complete the Great Commission. If we Christians unite, in One Holy Catholic Church, I'm sure we can reach 5 BN Souls by 2050. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:41, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

Lutherans are not known for lavish buildings, lots of expensive art collections and bank scandals (See: Vatican bank scandals). The Vatican is. Latin America and the Philippines are poor countries with lots of corruption.

The Vatican should be less prideful and sell off some of its riches. Please see: Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?

The Vatican City is the 18th wealthiest nation in the world per capita. (Kuznetsova, 2018).[22] With the election of Pope Francis in 2013, the secrets of the Vatican are slowly being unveiled as he strives for public transparency to try and put the many scandals surrounding the church to ease.[23]

The Vatican houses tens of thousands of pieces of art in its 26 museums, including the Sistine Chapel, which contains works from some of the most renowned artists in history.[24]

Please see: Should the Vatican Sell its Assets to Help the Poor?
Saint Peter's Square, Vatican City
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

The Coming Catholic Orthodox Reunion

And the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are almost certainly going to begin Re-Union by 2025, as I mentioned some 5 years ago, and looks increasingly more likely, and almost certainly will have completed Re-Union, perhaps with some conservative traditional Protestant churches also, by 2033, the 2000th Anniversary of the Lord Jesus Christ's Resurrection from the dead.

"Bartholomew attempted to convince several Athonite abbots and monks that there are no dogmatic differences between Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and that reunion with the Catholic church is inevitable." https://ocl.org/patriarch-bartholomew-tells-athonites-reunion-with-catholics-is-inevitable-reports-uoj/ NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:44, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

"During his visit to the Democratic Republic of Congo, Pope Francis spoke about the coming 1,700th anniversary of the first Council of Nicaea in 2025. Speaking with other Jesuits, the Pope said that “we are preparing a meeting for 2025” with Bartholomew I, the 270th archbishop of Constantinople and Ecumenical Patriarch.

Bartholomew and Francis have met about 15 times since 2013, and have developed a quite friendly relationship. In 2014, the patriarch of Constantinople announced his wish to meet again in Nicaea in 2025, to mark the 17th centenary of the council.

Nicaea is today’s Iznik, 130 kilometers southeast of Istanbul. In the year 325, more than 300 bishops from East and West, from different Patriarchates and Churches, gathered there for a council. The Creed that was then drawn up is very similar to the one that is still recited today in the liturgy. It affirms, among other things, that Jesus “is of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father,” contrary to what Arianism then claimed.

“With Patriarch Bartholomew, we want to reach an agreement on the date of Easter,” Pope Francis explained.

This issue remains a sensitive subject in the Christian world. Catholics and Protestants follow the Gregorian calendar, and the Orthodox the Julian calendar. In 2025, the two calendars will coincide. “Let’s see if we can agree on that for the future,” Pope Francis added."

From: https://aleteia.org/2023/02/18/preparing-for-the-1700th-anniversary-of-the-first-council-of-nicaea/ NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:45, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

That would be at least 1.65 BN of the world's 2.6 BN Christians - so 60% - and if some, like the Anglican, Methodist, Lutheran and so on come along by 2033 - close to 2 BN Christians. This is the way forward, and the Anglican Ordinariate is an example of how it could work. God Bless. Moving on to other things for now and going to have something to eat. Will check back later. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 04:48, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Reasons to be Christian Website - Atheistic Communist Battle Plan Exposed

Back. Those who want a larger picture should read this article which explains what is going on in the world today and has been for 500 years.

Article Link: https://reasonstobechristian.com/f/atheistic-communist-battle-plan-against-christendom-exposed

"In the Broken Cross, Piers Compton details the plans of Western Secret Societies, who were Allied with the Communists in this hidden World War many do not know of.[6]

"Growing chaos, and the replacement of traditional values by those of a new order, which were the tangible effects of the 1914 war, were seized upon as offering favourable opportunities to those who never ceased regarding the Church as their one great enemy. For early in 1936 a convention of secret societies was held in Paris; and although attendance was strictly limited to ‘those in the know,’ English and French observers managed to be present. Their accounts of the meeting appeared in the Catholic Gazette of February, 1936, and a few weeks later in Le Reveil du Peuple, a Paris weekly.

No one could fail to notice how closely the sentiments and topics that were there treated correspond to those put forward by Nubius and in the Alta Vendita more than a century before. What follows is a slightly shortened copy of the English version:

‘As long as there remains any moral conception of the social order, and until all faith, patriotism, and dignity are uprooted, our reign over the world shall not come. We have already fulfilled part of our work, and yet we cannot claim that the whole of our work is done. We still have a long way to go before we can overthrow our main opponent, the Catholic Church.

We must always bear in mind that the Catholic Church is the only institution which has stood, and which will, as long as it remains in existence, stand in our way. The Catholic Church, with its methodical work and her edifying moral teachings will always keep her children in such a state of mind as to make them too self-respecting to yield to our domination. That is why we have been striving to discover the best way of shaking the Catholic Church to her very foundations. We have spread the spirit of revolt and false liberalism among the nations so as to persuade them away from their faith and even to make them ashamed of professing the precepts of their religion, and obeying the commandments of their Church.

‘We have brought many of them to boast of being atheists, and more than that, to glory in being descendants of the ape!

We have given them new theories, impossible of realisation, such as Communism, anarchism, and Socialism, which are now serving our purposes. They have accepted them with the greatest enthusiasm, without realising that those theories are ours, and that they constitute the most powerful instrument against themselves.

‘We have blackened the Catholic Church with the most ignominious calumnies, we have stained her history, and disgraced even her noblest activities. We have imparted to her the wrongs of her enemies, and have brought these latter to stand more closely by our side. So much so that we are now witnessing, to our greatest satisfaction, rebellions against the Church in several countries. We have turned her clergy into objects of hatred and ridicule, we have subjected them to the hate of the crowd. We have caused the practice of the Catholic religion to be considered out of date and a mere waste of time. We have founded many secret associations which work for our purpose, under our orders and our directions.

‘So far, we have considered our strategy in our attacks upon the Church from the outside. But this is not all. Let us explain how we have gone further in our work to hasten the ruin of the Catholic Church, and how we have penetrated into her most intimate circles, and have brought even some of her clergy to be pioneers of our cause:

‘Apart from the influence of our philosophy, we have taken other steps to secure a breach in the Catholic Church. Let me explain how this has been done. We have induced some of our children to join the Catholic body with the explicit intention that they should work in a still more efficient way for the disintegration of the Catholic Church, by creating scandals within her.

‘We are grateful to Protestants for their loyalty to our wishes, although most of them are, in the sincerity of their faith, unaware of their loyalty to us. We are grateful to them for the wonderful help they are giving us in our fight against the stronghold of Christian civilisation, and in our preparations for the advent of our supremacy over the whole world.

‘So far we have succeeded in overthrowing most of the thrones of Europe. The rest will follow in the near future. Russia has already worshipped our rule. France is under our thumb. England, in her dependence upon our finance, is under our heel; and in her Protestantism is our best hope for the destruction of the Catholic Church. Spain and Mexico are but toys in our hands. And many other countries, including the United States of America; have already fallen before our scheming.

‘But the Catholic Church is still alive. We must destroy her without the least delay and without the slightest mercy.

Most of the Press of the world is under our control. Let us intensify our activities. Let us spread the spirit of revolution

in the minds of the people. ‘They must be made to despise patriotism and the love of their family, to consider their faith as a humbug, their obedience to the Church as a degrading servility, so that they may become deaf to the appeal of the Church and blind to her warnings against us. Let us, above all, make it impossible for Christians outside the Catholic Church to be reunited with her, or for non-Christians to join the Church; otherwise our domination over them will never be realised.’" NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:21, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Martin Luther's Misogynistic Polygamy-Endorsing Comments: More Evidence this wretch was not of God

I will note that material riches have nothing to do with spiritual treasures per se, as Jesus Christ often say in the Gospel. There are some Rich Atheist Countries, does that mean we should be Atheists? Of course not. Neither does Internet Traffic prove any point, though I can agree we Catholic Christians should be more active on Internet Evangelism, as I strive to be. Now, let's come back to Martin Luther:

"Marriage and Women Christ taught: “For this reason shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder. . . Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, commits adultery.”[38]

Luther teaches: “If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.”[39] 

           “Suppose I should counsel the wife of an impotent man, with his consent, to giver herself to another, say her husband’s brother, but to keep this marriage secret and to ascribe the children to the so-called putative father. The question is: Is such a women in a saved state? I answer, certainly.”[40]

           “It is not in opposition to the Holy Scriptures for a man to have several wives.”[41]

           “Know that Marriage is an outward material thing like any other secular business. The body has nothing to do with God. In this respect one can never sin against God, but only against one’s neighbour.”[42]

“As to divorce, it is still a debatable question whether it is allowable. For my part I prefer bigamy to it.”[43] 

“The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.”[44]

“In spite of all the good I say of married life, I will not grant so much to nature as to admit that there is no sin in it. .. no conjugal due is ever rendered without sin. The matrimonial duty is never performed without sin.”[45] "

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm NishantXavierFor Christ the King 19:08, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

I couldn't find an authoritative website to confirms your quote: "The word and work of God is quite clear, viz., that women are made to be either wives or prostitutes.” And your source doesn't give good footnotes. So it seems like a fishy source. Conservative (talk) 19:25, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Martin Luther on the Jews

" The Jews

Christ taught: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.”-Matt 22:39


Luther teaches: "My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire... Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...

He who hears this name [God] from a Jew must inform the authorities, or else throw sow dung at him when he sees him and chase him away".[34]


"Burn their synagogues. Forbid them all that I have mentioned above. Force them to work and treat them with every kind of severity, as Moses did in the desert and slew three thousand... If that is no use, we must drive them away like mad dogs, in order that we may not be partakers of their abominable blasphemy and of all their vices, and in order that we may not deserve the anger of God and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Let everyone see how he does his. I am excused."[35]

“ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham”[36]

“The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows seven times higher than ordinary thieves.”[37]"

From: http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/matluther.htm The Evidence is Clear and Overwhelming that this was an Evil Man. Next. Those who are following him should leave the Lutheran/Protestant Church and come back home to the Catholic Church. Period. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 19:11, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

You are being repetitive. You already mentioned the topic of Luther and the Jews. It's clear that you are not debating in good faith. Conservative (talk) 19:27, August 2, 2023 (EDT)

Nope. It's you who are not debating in good faith because you avoided and evaded various points and instead went into things like Google Traffic etc. There's no rule that says we cannot discuss what Luther said about Jews in two places. He blatantly violated the Commandment to Love one's Neighbor. He was a dangerously wicked man and you're greatly misled if you follow him. He taught you can kill and commit adultery a 100 times a day and still supposedly go to Heaven. A heretic, a wretch, an enemy of God, and an apostle of the Devil raised up by Hell to destroy the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, which whoever leaves can never find Salvation and is in mortal sin unless they repented before death. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:06, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Important recap so the basics are not obscured

1. Key point: First of all, Lutheranism is not Luther. Today's Lutherans reject some of the things Luther taught. Philip Melanchthon, who was Luther's right hand man, disagreed with some of the things Luther said. Catholics have the prideful and unbiblical doctrine of "Ex-cathedra".

Protestants and Lutherans are followers of Christ - not Luther.

Catholics can point out various mistakes and sins of Luther all day long, but that is not going to erase the correct things Luther and other Protestant reformers said.

2. The Apostle Paul and Martin Luther were right about this biblical passage: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God — not the result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

So the Catholic church was wrongheaded about indulgences, purgatory, etc.

3. There are Protestants/Lutherans who recognize that Luther was wrong about the books of James and Revelations - including myself.

So they recognize that James was right that "faith without works is dead". And that one should not "sin boldly".

In addition, this is true: "James clarifies, “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness’—and he was called a friend of God” (vv. 22–23)."[25]

4. Martin Luther and other reformers taught that the Catholic Church was very corrupt and needed to repent. This was true and is still true today. See: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke.

5. Martin Luther, other reformers and Protestants have rightly asserted that the Catholic church has a number of false doctrines such as "ex-cathedra", the primacy of Rome, etc. Conservative (talk) 03:07, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

NishantXavier's Rejoinder

Following Luther is wicked because it is agreeing with his sins and crimes. Anyone who removes the 7 Deuterocanonical Books from the Bible is following Luther in his impiety and wickedness. The Wretched Demonic Man also attacked 6 other Books of the Bible, as documented above. He thus merited all the curses God mentions in the Book of Revelation - which he also rejected - for doing so. He proved he was an Apostle of the Devil and a false teacher and wicked man when he attacked the Book of St. James the Apostle, whom even the unbelieving Jews called St. James the Just, and who was a Holy Martyr for Jesus Christ, unlike Luther, who was not, and was responsible for the death of 100,000 to 300,000 Peasants. Purgatory is taught in 1 Cor 3:15 by St. Paul the Apostle, by St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has always and everywhere been held by the Catholic Church. Those who die in Grace with venial sins remaining will go to Purgatory before Heaven. This is why the Holy Mass is offered for the sins of the faithful departed, just as the OT sacrifices in the Temple in 2 Macc 12:43-46. The debate stands concluded and the Catholic Church clearly wins. Martin Luther was wicked, like Cain, and offered, bad invalid sacrifices after destroying the Priesthood (which is what his Protestant Revolution was all about), whereas the Catholic Church, like Abel, is righteous (as St. John says in his Epistle), and she offers worthy, glorious, valid Eucharistic Sacrifices and saves Souls from Purgatory. ~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Addendum: Biblical and Patristic Proofs of Purgatory, which the heretics Calvin and Luther denied

"When Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ instituted the Holy Mass as a perpetual sacrifice of His Body and His Blood for the remission of our sins (Mt. 26:26–28; Mk. 14:22–24; Lk. 22:19–20; 1 Cor. 10:16–18; etc.), it is clear that He intended in a special way that the New Testament Sacrifice of the Holy Mass be the perfect fulfilment of the Old Covenant sacrifices. Now, if even these were offered up for the remission of the sins of the faithful departed (2 Macc. 12:43–46) — for it is written, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection[.] … It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” — it follows that Holy Mass is the greatest sacrifice to alleviate the terrifying sufferings of the faithful departed that God has ever given to man.

Since Protestants do not accept the Book of Maccabees (although they should; the 4th-century canons of Carthage, of Hippo, and the decrees of Pope St. Damasus’s Council of Rome all contain it as canonical), they often ask Catholics:“All right. Maccabees teaches Purgatory. But where is Purgatory in the New Testament? Wouldn’t Our Lord Jesus Christ or one of His apostles have mentioned it?”

The First Proof: Direct Proof from 1 Corinthians 3:13–15 Chapter 3 of St. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians is perhaps the most direct proof in Sacred Scripture of purgatorial fire and merits. According to Catholic doctrine, bad works are penalized by God; bad Christians, whose works are burned up, will therefore suffer loss and be saved only through fire. This is Purgatory and their bad works or sins are why Purgatory is necessary. This doctrine is plainly taught by St. Paul the Apostle.

"Every man’s work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." [1 Cor 3:15]

St. Basil the Great teaches: I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest. (Homilies on the Psalms 7:2)

What could possibly be clearer? The bad Christian is saved only through fire because of his bad works. The good Christian receives a reward from the Lord on that day because of his good works. This text clearly shows that good works done with faith in Christ are necessary post-justification and contribute to the soul’s sanctification. If performed, they entitle us by God’s grace to a heavenly reward, because God is so good. If neglected, they demand punishment, because God is holy.

The Second Proof: The Prison of Spirits St. Peter speaks of St. Peter the Apostle twice proves Purgatory when he speaks of a mysterious Prison of Spirits, in which the Gospel was preached, and from which souls can be delivered. Now, this cannot refer to Heaven, for Heaven is not a prison. But neither on the other hand can it refer to Hell, for there is no deliverance from Hell. It necessarily follows that this constitutes proof of some third intermediate state between Heaven and Hell, which Holy Mother Church aptly calls Purgatory.

1 Pet. 3: “Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, In which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison.”

1 Pet. 4: “For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to the dead: that they might be judged indeed according to men, in the flesh; but may live according to God, in the Spirit.”

Bp. Challoner justly comments on 1 Pet. 3:19: "See here a proof of a third place, or middle state of souls: for these spirits in prison, to whom Christ went to preach, after his death, were not in heaven; nor yet in the hell of the damned: because heaven is no prison: and Christ did not go to preach to the damned."

From: https://reasonstobechristian.com/f/they-shall-be-saved-yet-only-through-fire?blogcategory=1.5+Purgatory NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:13, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

The 3rd, 4th and 5th, Biblical Proofs, from Lord Jesus Christ, then St. Paul, and St. John Chrysostom:

"The Third Proof: The Lord Jesus mentions the same prison Mt. 5: “If therefore thou offer thy gift at the altar, and there thou remember that thy brother hath any thing against thee; Leave there thy offering before the altar, and go first to be reconciled to thy brother: and then coming thou shalt offer thy gift. Be at agreement with thy adversary betimes, whilst thou art in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison[.] Amen I say to thee, thou shalt not go out from thence till thou repay the last farthing.”

St. Cyprian eloquently argues based on this prison:

It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord. (Letter 51)

Tertullian interprets:

Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (A Treatise on the Soul, 35)

Once more: a prison from which souls can be delivered is neither Heaven nor Hell proper. But a spiritual prison from which prisoners depart when they have paid the last farthing is precisely such an imprisonment in an intermediate state.

The Fourth Proof: Our Lord speaks of lesser stripes in punishment Lk. 12: “The lord of that servant will come in the day that he hopeth not, and at the hour that he knoweth not, and shall separate him, and shall appoint him his portion with unbelievers. And that servant who knew the will of his lord, and prepared not himself, and did not according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.”

This follows the Old Testament requirement:

Deut. 25: “And if they see that the offender be worthy of stripes: they shall lay him down, and shall cause him to be beaten before them. According to the measure of the sin shall the measure also of the stripes be[.]”

Now, those who are beaten eternally have their lot with the unbelievers. But those who sinned in ignorance will deserve lesser stripes — i.e., non-eternal or only temporal punishment. It follows that these souls will ultimately be liberated.

St. Augustine persuasively says: "But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." (City of God 21:13)

Another related proof comes from Our Lord saying some sins are forgiven in this world, implying some others could be forgiven in the world to come (Mt. 12:32). As the Catholic Encyclopedia shows, St. Augustine was one to make this argument. And Pope St. Gregory, the Great Dialogist, was another. We will quote the latter here. To the question “Whether there be any Fire of Purgatory in the next life,” the saintly pope answers in the affirmative, saying, “We must believe that before the day of judgment there is a Purgatory fire for certain small sins: because our Saviour saith, that he which speaketh blasphemy against the holy Ghost, that it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come. Out of which sentence we learn, that some sins are forgiven in this world, and some other may be pardoned in the next: for that which is denied concerning one sin, is consequently understood to be granted touching some other. But yet this, as I said, we have not to believe but only concerning little and very small sins, as, for example, daily idle talk, immoderate laughter, negligence in the care of our family (which kind of offences scarce can they avoid, that know in what sort sin is to be shunned), ignorant errors in matters of no great weight: all which sins be punished after death, if men procured not pardon and remission for them in their lifetime” (Dialogues, Book 4, Chapter 39: Whether there be any Purgatory etc?).

The Fifth Proof: St. Paul prays for his departed Christian friend Onesiphorus St. Paul offers a final simple proof: “The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain” (2 Tim. 1:16). Now, it is manifest in the text, and not infrequently admitted even by Protestant commentators, that Onesiphorus was a departed Christian, whose works of mercy St. Paul calls to mind.

St. Thomas admirably argues: “Now there is no need to pray for the dead who are in heaven, for they are in no need; nor again for those who are in hell, because they cannot be loosed from sins.” This magnificent proof of St. Thomas is a final proof of Purgatory.

St. Chrysostom comments: "Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf." (St. John Chrysostom, Homilies on Philippians, 3)"

"If there is a Certain Truth it is this, the Christianity of History is not Protestantism ... to be deep in History is to cease to be a Protestant" ~ St. John Henry Newman, once an Anglican Scholar in the Church of England, later a Catholic Cardinal after Prayer and Study.

The End. Q.E.D. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:19, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

The corrupt Catholic church loves the false doctrine of purgatory because they mistaking think it is a get-out hell card for those who are lukewarm and are actually going to Hell

The corrupt Catholic church theologians love the false doctrine of purgatory because it is a get-out hell card for those who are lukewarm and are actually going to Hell.

Please see: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke.

"So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will vomit you out of My mouth." - Revelation 3:16.

Michael Vorhis' YouTube channel ChurchMilitant.com (A very staunch Catholic YouTube channel. ChurchMilitant.com is the website of a Catholic apostolate based in the metro Detroit, MI) recently said on multiple occasions that homosexual clergy/leadership is still a significant problem in the Catholic church as can be seen at Pope's Fraternity Fest Flaunts Semi-Nude Gay Dancer | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Top Cardinal: Don't Blame Gay Priests For Sex Abuse | Rome Dispatch (produced 1 month ago) and Catholic — News Report — Priest Taps Jewish Scholar to Defend Homosexuality (Produced 10 months ago) and The Vortex — It's Homosexuality, Stupid! (produced one year ago) and The Vortex — Homosexual Hierarchy (Produced 2 years ago).

NishantXavier's rejoinder

1 Cor 3:13-15 says otherwise. Take it up with St. Paul. If you love Michael Voris so much, you should agree with what he said about Luther: that even Lutheran Scholars know Luther said Christ was an Adulterer, thus making Luther a Blasphemer for saying that against the Sinless Christ. The Catholic Church is the World's Largest Health Care Provider in the world, and runs countless charities, hospitals and schools. Those who die in Grace with venial sins remaining, or not having done penance for forgiven sins, will go to Purgatory before Heaven. Read 1 Cor 3:13-15, the verses in the Gospel in Mat 5 and in 1 Pet 3 and 4, and the Church Fathers cited on Purgatory. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:03, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Purgatory is not a get-out-of-hell card. It is the reverse. It teaches you have to be Perfect and nearly Sinless - as the Blessed Virgin Mary was, being Full of Grace (Luk 1:28), and to be Full of Grace is to be without sin, as Christ Himself was Full of Grace and without sin - to go to Heaven directly. You have to do much Penance, many Good Works, frequent the Sacraments, hear Mass devoutly, offer Mass for your loved ones in Purgatory, pray many Rosaries, love your neighbor, forgive your enemies, make the Stations of the Cross, pray Indulgenced Prayers, and love God very much, striving to keep His commandments and live without sin, to go to Heaven without Purgatory. 1 Cor 3:13-15, which is still in your Bibles, and 2 Macc 12:43-46, which Martin Luther the impious wretch removed, teach Purgatory. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:10, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Jesus Christ on Aspiring for Sinless Perfection: "43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Mat 5) NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:12, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Only Christians can avoid Hell, and only Catholic Christians can avoid Purgatory. If you want to avoid Purgatory, enter the Church and receive Her Sacraments, especially Holy Communion, which is the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, and takes away Venial Sins. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:16, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

"Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." - Romans 13:1

USA Catholicism is infected with lawless Marxists who knowingly help the breaking of U.S. immigration laws.

Michael Voris: "Defund the U.S. Bishops."

The Catholic hierarchy is corrupt and there are many lukewarm Catholics who have sloppy Bible reading habits. American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).[26] Under Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate! Conservative (talk) 06:16, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

NishantXavier's Response

Yes, you should be subject to the governing authorities of the Catholic Church, to whom Christ gave the Keys the Kingdom of Heaven, to bind and loose on Earth. Read Mat 16 and Mat 18. This is not about politics or Mexico. Look to Devout Catholic Poland which has enthroned Jesus Christ as King, and is staunchly Pro-Life. Our Lady of Gaudalupe once appeared in Mexico and made them Catholic Christians. That was long back. In 1531, refuting Calvin's Cessationism. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:18, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Gentle Reminder: Catholic Church saved nearly 1 MN Jewish Lives during the Holocaust - it's the World's Greatest Humanitarian Organization. She Saves 10s of Millions of Lives through Pro-Life Actions even today and 100s of Millions of Souls by Evangelism

Catholic Church was responsible for Saving the Lives of Nearly 1 MN Jews during the Holocaust - according to the Best Jewish Scholars themselves: "Please spread this information far and wide. It seems that hardly any layman on the street knows this, whereas you have now the best Jewish scholars saying the Church saved 100s of 1000s of Jewish lives and likely close to 1 Million. The below source estimates 860,000.

From the Jewish Virtual Library [1]:

"The vindication of Pius XII has been established principally by Jewish writers and from Israeli archives. It is now established that the Pope supervised a rescue network which saved 860,000 Jewish lives - more than all the international agencies put together." https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/860-000-lives-saved-the-truth-about-pius-xii-and-the-jews

"By 1943, the Vatican's many rescue efforts on behalf of Jews were being universally acknowledged. In the fall of 1943, the Jewish communities of Chile, Uruguay, and Bolivia sent letters to Pope Pius XII, and thanked him for assisting Jews (Actes, IX, pp. 498, 501-502, and 567).

The 1943-1944 American Jewish Yearbook said that Pius XII "took an unequivocal stand against the oppression of Jews throughout Europe." In his February 18, 1944 letter to Msgr. Amleto Cicognani, the apostolic delegate in Washington, D.C., Rabbi Maurice Perlzweig, the political director of the World Jewish Congress, wrote that "the repeated interventions of the Holy Father on behalf of Jewish Communities in Europe has evoked the profoundest sentiments of appreciation and gratitude from Jews throughout the world." (Actes, X, p. 140).

Two important Jewish leaders who worked with the Vatican to save Jews also expressed similar sentiments. "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in this most tragic hour of history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world," Chief Rabbi Herzog declared on February 28. (Actes, X, p. 292). In his April 7 letter to the papal nuncio in Romania, Chief Rabbi Alexander Shafran of Bucharest wrote, "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the Supreme Pontiff, who offered a large sum to relive the sufferings of deported Jews... The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance..." (Actes, X, pp. 291-292)."

From:https://reasonstobechristian.com/f/how-the-churchpapacy-saved-nearly-1-million-jewish-lives NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:20, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's reply

Dear Readers,

If you are pro-life, join the Lutheran church. See: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA.

Plurality religious denomination by state, 2001
States with the highest fertility rates and birth rates in 2023.[9]

Question: Why do none of the top states as far as their fertility/birth rates given in the graphics above have Catholic majorities?

Martin Luther condemned abortion:

An unborn child in the womb.

Martin Luther (November 10, 1483 - February 18, 1546) was one of the most important leaders in Christian and German history. An Augustinian monk, priest, and professor of theology, he unintentionally launched the Protestant Reformation and founded the Lutheran Church.

While lecturing on Genesis 25:1–4, Martin Luther declared:

God wanted to teach and attest that the beginning of children is wonderfully pleasing to Him, in order that we might realize that He upholds and defends His Word when He says: "Be fruitful." He is not hostile to children as we are. ... How great, therefore, the wickedness of human nature is! How many girls there are who prevent conception and kill and expel tender fetuses, although procreation is the work of God![10]

Luther wrote a pamphlet in which he distinguished between women who suffer miscarriages through no fault of their own and "those females who resent being pregnant, deliberately neglect their child, or go so far as to strangle or destroy it."[11] And in a 1544 letter, Luther strongly condemned a woman who had been a guest in his house for, among other reasons, asking his maid to "jump on her body in order to kill the fetus."[12]

I hope this clarifies things. Conservative (talk) 06:30, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Pope Ven. Pius XII - same Pope who saved nearly 1 MN Lives above - on the Ecumenical Movement and Catholic Principles of Ecumenism

"They shall take particular care and shall firmly insist that, in going over the history of the Reformation and the Reformers the defects of Catholics be not so exaggerated and the faults of the Reformers be so dissimulated, or that things which are rather accidental be not so emphasized, that what is most essential, namely the defection from the Catholic faith, be scarcely any longer seen or felt. Finally, they shall take precautions lest, through an excessive and false external activity, or through imprudence and an excited manner of proceeding, the end in view be rather harmed than served.

Therefore the <whole> and <entire> Catholic doctrine is to be presented and explained: by no means is it permitted to pass over in silence or to veil in ambiguous terms the Catholic truth regarding the nature and way of justification, the constitution of the Church, the primacy of jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, and the only true union by the return of the dissidents to the one true Church of Christ. It should be made clear to them that, in returning to the Church, they will lose nothing of that good which by the grace of God has hitherto been implanted in them, but that it will rather be supplemented and completed by their return. However, one should not speak of this in such a way that they will imagine that in returning to the Church they are bringing to it something substantial which it has hitherto lacked. It will be necessary to say these things clearly and openly, first because it is the truth that they themselves are seeking, and moreover because outside the truth no true union can ever be attained."

From: https://www.ewtn.com/catholicism/library/on-the-ecumenical-movement-2070 NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:22, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Continued and Completed: "VII—Religious Superiors are bound to watch and to see to it that their subjects adhere strictly and faithfully to the prescriptions laid down by the Holy See or by the local Ordinaries in this matter.

In order that so noble a work as the "union" of all Christians in one true faith and Church may daily grow into a more conspicuous part of the entire care of souls, and that the whole Catholic people may more earnestly implore this "union" from Almighty God, it will certainly be of assistance that in some appropriate way, for example through Pastoral Letters, the faithful be instructed regarding these questions and projects, the prescriptions of the Church in the matter, and the reasons on which they are based. All, especially priests and religious, should be exhorted and warmly encouraged to be zealous by their prayers and sacrifices to ripen and promote this work, and all should be reminded that nothing more effectively paves the way for the erring to find the truth and to embrace the Church than the faith of Catholics, when it is confirmed by the example of upright living." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:23, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

As far as the Jewish Holocaust, remember that Adolf Hitler was raised as a Catholic.

The Bible says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he grows older he will not abandon it." (Proverb 22:6).

Did Hitler's Catholic priests and Catholic parents encourage him to read the Bible?

American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).[27] Under Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate!

Also, the Catholic Church never ex-communicated Hitler.

As far as the Jewish Holocaust, remember that Adolf Hitler was raised as a Catholic

The Bible says, "Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he grows older he will not abandon it." (Proverb 22:6).

Did Hitler's Catholic priests and Catholic parents encourage him to read the Bible?

American Protestants (36 percent) are more likely to read every day than American Catholics (17 percent).[1]

Under American Catholicism, people are reading the Bible daily at half the rate of American Protestants!

Also, the Catholic Church never ex-communicated Hitler.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by User:Conservative (talk)
Footnote: That man in the photo is not Adolf Hitler, it is a body double used in Nazi propaganda, as it is being used here again. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:48, August 4, 2023 (EDT)
Any qualified historian can see that, and immediately realize the author and poster doesn't have a clue what they are talking about.
How a discussion about the teachings of Martin Luther leads to a discussion about Adolf Hitler, I haven't a clue. Are you claiming Luther somehow was prophetic, that someday Hitler would arise out the Roman Catholic Church? RobSGive Peace a Chance! 18:03, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Where Things Went Wrong With the Jesuits

Where Things Went Wrong With the Jesuits - Staunch Catholics say the Jesuits have become very liberal, tolerate sexual abuse in the Catholic Church and promote heresy. Various Jesuits love homosexuality! Shame!

The Jesuits is a religious order of clerics regular of pontifical right for men in the Catholic Church headquartered in Rome.

The Jesuits have become the butt of Jokes among some Catholics. The Jesuits are a corrupt joke! Conservative (talk) 12:31, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Catholic universities have become woke! Catholic universities have adopted the politically correct fads of secular universities.

Catholic universities have adopted the politically correct fads of secular universities.

Go to a conservative Protestant university! One of User: Conservative's friends graduated from a very conservative Protestant university. Conservative (talk) 13:08, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

American Protestant pentecostal Christians are more pro-life than American Catholics. Another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale

Protestant pentecostal Christians and more pro-life than Catholics.

Another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale.

First the evidence shows that conservative Lutherans in the Dakotas are more pro-life than states where American Catholics are the majority and now this!

Please read: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA 

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Protestantism has big and powerful Spirit-filled revivals! Catholicism doesn't!

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Protestant pentecostalism wins the FASTEST end times evangelism award. Sorry Catholics, this is another category that you lose in

Members of the Pentecostal Church of God in Lejunior, Kentucky praying for a girl in 1946.

See also: Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism has experienced explosive growth for the past half-century. The membership is young and fast-growing. Combined, the Pentecostals (in separate denominations) and charismatics (inside other denominations) add up to very large numbers. The statistics are highly inexact but the combined total is perhaps one Christian in ten, worldwide.

In 2011, a Pew Forum study of worldwide Christianity found that there were about 279 million classical Pentecostals, making 4 percent of the total world population and 12.8 percent of global Christendom Pentecostal.[13]

The American sociologist and author Peter L. Berger introduced the concept of desecularization in 1999.[14][15] According to Berger, "One can say with some confidence that modern Pentecostalism must be the fastest growing religion in human history."[16] See also: Growth of pentecostalism and Growth of religious fundamentalism and Historical examples of the exponential growth of Christianity

The atheist author and advocate David Madison, PhD wrote in March 2019: "I remain haunted—and terrified—by what I read on a Christian website, not long after the turn of this century: that by 2025, there will be one billion (yes, that’s with a “b”) Pentecostals in the world."[17] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

While Catholicism is dying in secular Europe, Evangelical Christianity is growing in secular/atheistic areas in a powerful way!

Growth of evangelical Christianity in China

See also: Growth of Christianity in China and East Asia and global desecularization

The speed of growth of Christianity in China is similar to that seen in fourth-century Rome just before the conversion of Constantine, which paved the way for Christianity to become the religion of his empire.[18]

The current atheist population mostly resides in East Asia (particularly China) and in secular Europe/Australia among whites.[19] See: Western atheism and race

China has the world's largest atheist population.[20][21]

According to Slate, "Protestant Christianity has been the fastest growing religion in China."[22] Evangelical Christianity is especially growing sharply in China.[23] See also: Asian atheism

On November 1, 2014, an article in The Economist entitled Cracks in the atheist edifice declared:

“ Officials are untroubled by the clash between the city’s famously freewheeling capitalism and the Communist Party’s ideology, yet still see religion and its symbols as affronts to the party’s atheism...

Yang Fenggang of Purdue University, in Indiana, says the Christian church in China has grown by an average of 10% a year since 1980. He reckons that on current trends there will be 250m Christians by around 2030, making China’s Christian population the largest in the world. Mr. Yang says this speed of growth is similar to that seen in fourth-century Rome just before the conversion of Constantine, which paved the way for Christianity to become the religion of his empire.[24]

”

In 2020, The Economist published an article entitled Protestant Christianity is booming in China which indicated:

“ As for China’s Christians, their numbers continue to grow. The government reckons that about 200m of China’s 1.4bn people are religious. Although most practice traditional Chinese religions such as Taoism, and longer-standing foreign imports such as Buddhism, Protestant Christianity is probably the fastest-growing faith, with at least 38m adherents today (about 3% of the population), up from 22m a decade ago, according to the government’s count. The true number is probably much higher: perhaps as many as 22m more Chinese Protestants worship in unregistered “underground” churches, according to a new study by researchers at the University of Notre Dame. As China also has 10m-12m Catholics, there are more Christians in China today than in France (38m) or Germany (43m). Combined, Christians and the country’s estimated 23m Muslims may now outnumber the membership of the Communist Party (92m). Indeed, an unknown number of party members go to church as well as local committee meetings.[25] ”
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Growth of evangelical Christianity in secular Europe

See also: European desecularization in the 21st century and Religion and migration

Austria's census data permits demographers to perform analysis which indicates the secular population in Europe plateauing by 2050, or as early as 2021.[26]

Concerning the future of religion/secularism in Europe, professor Eric Kaufmann wrote:

“ We have performed these unprecedented analyses on several cases. Austria offers us a window into what the future holds. Its census question on religious affiliation permits us to perform cohort component projections, which show the secular population plateauing by 2050, or as early as 2021 if secularism fails to attract lapsed Christians and new Muslim immigrants at the same rate as it has in the past. (Goujon, Skirbekk et al. 2006).

This task will arguably become far more difficult as the supply of nominal Christians dries up while more secularisation-resistant Muslims and committed rump Christians comprise an increasing share of the population.[27]

”

Regarding the future of evangelical Protestantism in Europe, in a paper entitled Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century, Kaufmann wrote:

“ What of European Christianity? The conventional wisdom holds it to be in free fall, especially in Western Europe. (Bruce 2002) This is undoubtedly correct for Catholic Europe, while Protestant Europe already has low levels of religious practice. Yet closer scrutiny reveals an increasingly lively and demographically growing Christian remnant. Several studies have examined the connection between religiosity - whether defined as attendance, belief or affiliation - and fertility in Europe. Most find a statistically significant effect even when controlling for age, education, income, marital status and other factors...

Moving to the wider spectrum of European Christianity, we find that fertility is indeed much higher among European women who are religious...

Today, most of those who remain religious in Europe wear their beliefs lightly, but conservative Christianity is hardly a spent force. Data on conservative Christians is difficult to come by since many new churches keep few official records. Reports from the World Christian Database, which meticulously tracks reports from church bodies, indicates that 4.1 percent of Europeans (including Russians) were evangelical Christians in 2005. This figure rises to 4.9 percent in northern, western and southern Europe. Most religious conservatives are charismatics, working within mainstream denominations like Catholicism or Lutheranism to ‘renew’ the faith along more conservative lines. There is also an important minority of Pentecostals, who account for .5% of Europe’s population. Together, charismatics and Pentecostals account for close to 5 % of Europe’s population. The proportion of conservative Christians has been rising, however: some estimate that the trajectory of conservative Christian growth has outpaced that of Islam in Europe. (Jenkins 2007: 75).

In many European countries, the proportion of conservative Christians is close to the number who are recorded as attending church weekly. This would suggest an increasingly devout Christian remnant is emerging in western Europe which is more resistant to secularization. This shows up in France, Britain and Scandinavia (less Finland), the most secular countries where we have 1981, 1990 and 2000 EVS and 2004 ESS data on religiosity...

Currently, there are more evangelical Christians than Muslims in Europe. (Jenkins 2007: 75) In Eastern Europe, as outside the western world, Pentecostalism is a sociological and not a demographic phenomenon. In Western Europe, by contrast, demography is central to evangelicalism’s growth, especially in urban areas. Alas, immigration brings two foreign imports, Islam and Christianity, to secular Europe.[28]

”
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Projected growth of evangelical Christianity in Europe according to Operation World

Justin Long, citing statistics from Operation World states:

“ Europe. From 18 million today, this model projects growth to 26 million evangelicals by 2100. The annual growth rate will decline along with the falling population AGR, which is projected to hit its peak ‘low’ rate of -0.246% per annum around 2075. Since the evangelical AGR will not be as slow as the population’s, Europe will actually become more evangelical (by percentage of the population): rising from 2.5% in 2010 to 4% in 2100 in this model.[29] ”

Growth of French evangelical Protestant Christianity

French scholars say, evangelicalism is likely the fastest-growing religion in France – defying all stereotypes about one of Europe's most secular nations. In 2011, The number of evangelical churches increased from 769 to 2,068 in 2011.[30]

According to the article Evangelicals in France:

“ For the first time since the 1950s, French Protestants make up close to 3% of the population – driven largely by growth in the Evangelical population (representing 1.6% of the population). While churches are being planted at an increasing rate, as of 2017, there was still an average of just one Evangelical church for every 26,485 people.

The goal set forth by the majority of denominations is to see one church for every 10,000 inhabitants – making the Gospel accessible to all French people...

Evangelicals by the numbers:

  • 650,000 – Regularly practice their faith (all ages).
  • 3/4 – Evangelical Protestants represent 1/3 of all Protestants but ¾ of those who regularly practice their faith.
  • 10 – The number of Evangelical Protestants has increased 10 times in the past 60 years (in 1950, there were 50,000 practicing Evangelicals)
  • 2,521 – There are 2,521 local churches in France, counting those communities that offer at least 3 services per month on the weekends (in 1970, there were 769). Additionally, there are 500 more houses of worship that meet less frequently.
  • 10 – A new local church is born every 10 days – about 35 new churches per year.
  • 45 – The majority of local churches belong to one of 45 denominations.[31]
 ”

On July 12, 2012, the Christian Science Monitor reported:

“ French scholars say, evangelicalism is likely the fastest-growing religion in France – defying all stereotypes about Europe’s most secular nation...

Daniel Liechti, vice-president of the French National Evangelical Council, found that since 1970, a new evangelical church has opened in France every 10 days. The number of churches increased from 769 to 2,068 last year.[32]

”

A 2009 article at the Voice of America website entitled Evangelical Churches Flourishing in Europe declared:

“ ...Evangelical churches are booming across the region, particularly those attended by immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Latin America...

Evangelical Christianity is flourishing in Europe. France has witnessed an eight-fold increase in Evangelical Christians during the past half century, from roughly 50,000 to 400,000....

In a country where people are a bit disappointed by traditional religion, Sinclair says, they are impressed by the way these Evangelical churches are alive and welcoming.

The churches underscore the fact that while secularization continues to progress in Europe, there has been what Sinclair calls a spiritual turning in recent years...

Majagira Bulangalire, the president of Community of Churches of African Expression of France, an umbrella group of immigrant Evangelical churches.

Bulangalire admits there have been a few problems with local authorities. But he says once they see the churches can serve their communities in a positive fashion they are very open. He says the French Interior Ministry has also been welcoming. Some Roman Catholic parishes have adopted Evangelical-style bible study classes. Jean-Arnold de Clermont, head of the Protestant Federation of France, says traditional Protestant churches are realizing they can learn from their Evangelical counterparts. [33]

”

See also: Immigrant evangelical churches are a fast growing movement in France —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Growth of British evangelical Christianity

See also: British atheism

Some 4.5million of the UK's foreign-born population claim to have a religious affiliation and more than half are Christian. Church attendance in Greater London grew by 16% between 2005 and 2012.[34] In addition, the latest immigrants to the UK as a whole mean British Christianity is becoming more charismatic and fundamentalist.[35]

The Christian Post reported on July 21, 2019, as far as Britain: "The percentage of respondents who said they were nondenominational Christians increased from 3% of the population in 1998 to 13% in 2018."[36]

In December 2017, the Church Times reported:

“ In 2016, the Centre for Theology and Community (CTC) published new research on Evangelical church-planting in east London, Love, Sweat and Tears (News, 8 April 2016, Features, 21 April). This confirmed the widely recognised image of Evangelicals as people who like to plant churches, but it also revealed that the way they work is not at all how people often imagine.

All of these Evangelical churches were planted in deprived areas, not suburbs; most of their members were local; one parish was cross-tradition; every parish was reaching people who do not attend church; and all of them were involved in social-action projects that served their local communities.[37]

”

Due to religious immigrants, many of whom are evangelical Christians, church attendance in Greater London grew by 16% between 2005 and 2012.[38] In 2013, it was reported that 52% of people who attended church in London attended evangelical churches.[39]

On December 14, 2009, the British newspaper The Telegraph reported:

“ According to the Mail Evangelical Christianity is on the rise.

Some 4.5million of the UK's foreign-born population claim to have a religious affiliation. Of these, around a quarter are Muslim while more than half are Christian – with Polish Catholics and African Pentecostals among the fastest-growing groups.

While traditional churchgoing is on the decline in the UK over the past decade, the latest immigrants mean Christianity is becoming more charismatic and fundamentalist.

'Perhaps the most significant change has been the growth of Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity within migrant populations, particularly those from Africa and Latin America,' the report found.

'In Lewisham, there are 65 Pentecostal churches serving the Nigerian community, and others serving the Congolese, Ghanaian and Ivorian communities.'

Professor Mike Kenny of IPPR said: 'The research shows that recent waves of inward migration have given a boost to some of the UK's established faith communities at a time when Britain's society and culture are generally more secular, and smaller numbers of the indigenous population are regularly attending churches.

'Recent migration trends are altering the faith map of the UK. Their biggest impact is being felt in some of our largest cities: London above all, where a rich mosaic of different faith communities has come into being.'

Evangelical Christianity might be heavily African-influenced but it’s also spreading among the natives as well.[40]

”

See also:

Germany and the growth of evangelical Christianity

See also: Secular Europe

On March 17, 2014, the news website Deutsche Well reported that evangelical Christianity has doubled in Germany in the last 10 years.[41] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Catholic Church, Spanish Inquisition, torture and suffering

"The Spanish Inquisition was a judicial institution that lasted between 1478 and 1834. Its ostensible purpose was to combat heresy in Spain, but, in practice, it resulted in consolidating power in the monarchy of the newly unified Spanish kingdom. Its brutal methods led to widespread death and suffering.

The Roman Catholic Church had established inquisitions in the past. Taking their name from the Latin verb inquiro (“inquire into”), these commissions had authority to question supposed heretics about their religious practices and loyalties starting in the 13th century." - Encyclopedia Britannica.[28]

"A century later, during the Spanish Inquisition, interrogators began using more elaborate forms of torture, such as the rack, the pulley and waterboarding. They also began parading their victims through the streets in elaborate displays of punishment."[29] Conservative (talk) 21:50, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

Goya's depiction of an Inquisition tribunal

Conclusion of the Debate: Faith of our Fathers hymn by saintly Catholic Christian Priest, Rev. Father Frederick Faber

Father Frederick Faber on Persecution of Catholic Christians in England, and Ireland. He forgives his Persecutors and Prays for their Salvation. Exactly as Christ taught in Mat 5, and which is often a Mark of Sinless or Near Sinless Perfection to be able to do:

"Faith of our Fathers! living still In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword: Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy Whene'er we hear that glorious word. Faith of our Fathers! Holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death.

Our Fathers, chained in prisons dark, Were still in heart and conscience free: How sweet would be their children's fate, If they, like them, could die for thee! Faith of our Fathers! Holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death.

Faith of our Fathers! Mary's prayers Shall win our country back to thee: And through the truth that comes from God England shall then indeed be free.

Faith of our Fathers! Holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death.

Faith of our Fathers! we will love Both friend and foe in all our strife: And preach thee too, as love knows how By kindly words and virtuous life:

Faith of our Fathers! Holy Faith! We will be true to thee till death." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 06:30, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's response

An excerpt from NishantXavier's above: "How sweet would be their children's fate".

Please see: The Dakotas, the USA states with the highest percentage of Lutherans, are the most pro-life states in the USA

Question: Why don't any of the top states as far as their fertility/birth rates in the above cited article have Catholic majorities?

U.S. Catholics, read the book of James. Faith without works is dead! Stop fornicating, get married and have children. And stop having abortions. Conservative (talk) 06:52, August 3, 2023 (EDT)

British Historian Thomas Macaulay on the Roman Catholic Church as the Most Accomplished International or Universal Organization Ever

""There is not, and there never was on this earth, a work of human policy so well deserving of examination as the Roman Catholic Church. The history of that Church joins together the two great ages of human civilisation. No other institution is left standing which carries the mind back to the times when the smoke of sacrifice rose from the Pantheon, and when camelopards and tigers bounded in the Flavian amphitheatre. The proudest royal houses are but of yesterday, when compared with the line of the Supreme Pontiffs. That line we trace back in an unbroken series, from the Pope who crowned Napoleon in the nineteenth century to the Pope who crowned Pepin in the eighth; and far beyond the time of Pepin the august dynasty extends, till it is lost in the twilight of fable. The republic of Venice came next in antiquity. But the republic of Venice was modern when compared with the Papacy; and the republic of Venice is gone, and the Papacy remains.

The Papacy remains, not in decay, not a mere antique, but full of life and youthful vigour. The Catholic Church is still sending forth to the farthest ends of the world missionaries as zealous as those who landed in Kent with Augustin, and still confronting hostile kings with the same spirit with which she confronted Attila. The number of her children is greater than in any former age. Her acquisitions in the New World have more than compensated for what she has lost in the Old. Her spiritual ascendency extends over the vast countries which lie between the plains of the Missouri and Cape Horn, countries which a century hence, may not improbably contain a population as large as that which now inhabits Europe. The members of her communion are certainly not fewer than a hundred and fifty millions; and it will be difficult to show that all other Christian sects united amount to a hundred and twenty millions. [Edit: this is now 1.35 BN Catholics, 300 MN Orthodox Christians who will soon be united with us, less than 1 BN Protestants, including many who are Pro-Catholic and open to Union]

Nor do we see any sign which indicates that the term of her long dominion is approaching. She saw the commencement of all the governments and of all the ecclesiastical establishments that now exist in the world; and we feel no assurance that she is not destined to see the end of them all. She was great and respected before the Saxon had set foot on Britain, before the Frank had passed the Rhine, when Grecian eloquence still flourished at Antioch, when idols were still worshipped in the temple of Mecca. And she may still exist in undiminished vigour when some traveller from New Zealand shall, in the midst of a vast solitude, take his stand on a broken arch of London Bridge to sketch the ruins of St. Paul's." NishantXavierFor Christ the King 05:29, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rebuttal

European Catholicism is dying. And if it wasn't for Marxist Catholics promoting illegal immigration in the USA, the scandal-ridden USA Catholic Church would be in decline as well. In the USA, the conservative Lutherans in the Dakotas have a higher fertility rate than American Catholics and so do the American pentecostals and Amish (See sections above). Conservative (talk) 07:10, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Also, did the British Historian Thomas Macaulay predict the decline of the British Empire? If not, how prescient and culturally/organizationally astute was he?

On top of this Catholic universities are often woke and the Jesuits are very liberal and even Catholics admit that they promote heresy (See sections above).

And lastly, annthis cannot be overemphasized due to the severity of the problem, the Catholic Church still has a significant homosexuality problem within its priesthood/hierarchy which even the staunch Catholic Michael Voris admits and publically decries. See: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said that you shall know them by their fruits. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Catholic Encyclopedia Citations and Explanations of the Origin of the Term, "Protestant"

"The Diet of the Holy Roman Empire, assembled at Speyer in April, 1529, resolved that, according to a decree promulgated at the Diet of Worms (1521), communities in which the new religion was so far established that it could not without great trouble be altered should be free to maintain it, but until the meeting of the council they should introduce no further innovations in religion, and should not forbid the Mass, or hinder Catholics from assisting thereat.

Against this decree, and especially against the last article, the adherents of the new Evangel — the Elector Frederick of Saxony, the Landgrave of Hesse, the Margrave Albert of Brandenburg, the Dukes of Lüneburg, the Prince of Anhalt, together with the deputies of fourteen of the free and imperial cities — entered a solemn protest as unjust and impious. The meaning of the protest was that the dissentients did not intend to tolerate Catholicism within their borders. On that account they were called Protestants.

In course of time the original connotation of "no toleration for Catholics" was lost sight of, and the term is now applied to, and accepted by, members of those Western Churches and sects which, in the sixteenth century, were set up by the Reformers in direct opposition to the Catholic Church. The same man may call himself Protestant or Reformed: the term Protestant lays more stress on antagonism to Rome; the term Reformed emphasizes adherence to any of the Reformers. Where religious indifference is prevalent, many will say they are Protestants, merely to signify that they are not Catholics. In some such vague, negative sense, the word stands in the new formula of the Declaration of Faith to be made by the King of England at his coronation; viz.: "I declare that I am a faithful Protestant". During the debates in Parliament it was observed that the proposed formula effectively debarred Catholics from the throne, whilst it committed the king to no particular creed, as no man knows what the creed of a faithful Protestant is or should be." [42]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

User: Conservative's rebuttal

The USA, which is a Protestant majority country, attracts people from all corners of the earth partly due to its high degree of religious freedom - especially in the Republican-controlled areas of the USA.

In Northern Europe, which has a cultural heritage of Protestantism, there is more religious freedom than France which has a cultural heritage of Catholicism/atheism. In France, Muslim women are not allowed to wear headscarves. And when France was less secular, the Catholics persecuted the Huguenots.

And of course, let's not forget the Spanish Inquisition and intolerant Catholic queen Mary I of England who has often been called "Bloody Mary" by Protestants. Conservative (talk) 07:20, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Secular Historians on Protestant Persecutions of Catholics

""Now granting for the sake of argument, that all that is usually said of Catholic persecutions is true, the fact remains that Protestants, as such, have no right to denounce them, as if such deeds were characteristic of Catholics only. People who live in glass houses should not throw stones . . .

"It is unquestionable . . . that the champions of Protestantism - Luther, Calvin, Beza, Knox, Cranmer and Ridley - advocated the right of the civil authorities to punish the `crime' of heresy . . . Rousseau says truly:

"`The Reformation was intolerant from its cradle, and its authors were universal persecutors' . . .

Auguste Comte also writes:

"`The intolerance of Protestantism was certainly not less tyrannical than that with which Catholicism is so much reproached.' (Philosophie Positive, vol.4, p.51).

"What makes, however, Protestant persecutions specially revolting is the fact that they were absolutely inconsistent with the primary doctrine of Protestantism - the right of private judgment in matters of religious belief! Nothing can be more illogical than at one moment to assert that one may interpret the Bible to suit himself, and at the next to torture and kill him for having done so!

"Nor should we ever forget that . . . the Protestants were the aggressors, the Catholics were the defenders. The Protestants were attempting to destroy the old, established Christian Church, which had existed 1500 years, and to replace it by something new, untried and revolutionary. The Catholics were upholding a Faith, hallowed by centuries of pious associations and sublime achievements; the Protestants, on the contrary, were fighting for a creed . . . which already was beginning to disintegrate into hostile sects, each of which, if it gained the upper hand, commenced to persecute the rest! . . . All religious persecution is bad; but in this case, of the two parties guilty of it, the Catholics certainly had the more defensible motives for their conduct.

"At all events, the argument that the persecutions for heresy, perpetrated by the Catholics, constitute a reason why one should not enter the Catholic Church, has not a particle more force than a similar argument would have against one's entering the Protestant Church. In both there have been those deserving of blame in this respect, and what applies to one applies also to the other." (92:204-5,209-l0)"[43] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

User: Conservative's rebuttal

As noted above, Auguste Comte was an atheist. State atheism/communist regimes have been tyrannical.

Friedrich Hayek was highly critical of Comte's totalitarian ideas.[44]

Joe Biden, a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had. And the Vatican has yet to deny him communion throughout the Catholic Church nor have they ex-communicated him.

Protestant countries, like the USA have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism and Protestant cultural legacies

Key point: In light of the above, I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate! Conservative (talk) 07:31, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Auguste Comte was an atheist. State atheism/communist regimes have been tyrannical.

Friedrich Hayek was highly critical of Comte's totalitarian ideas.[45]

Joe Biden, a Catholic, is one of the most corrupt and tyrannical presidents the USA has ever had. And the Vatican has yet to deny him communion throughout the Catholic Church nor have they ex-communicated him.

Protestant countries, like the USA have more prosperity and freedom than the Catholic countries of Latin America and the Philippines which have a lot of corruption and poverty. See: Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism and Protestant cultural legacies

Key point: In light of the above, I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate!
I view the Catholic User: NishantXavier's continual quoting of August Comte to be a desperation tactic which I liken to a "Hail Mary pass" in American football. Clearly, he is badly losing this debate!

If only Catholics had an "organizational vitality" and low levels of corruption running games. Then User: NishantXavier wouldn't be so tempted to do so many desperate Auguste Compte quote Hail Mary passes!
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

Addendum on Catholic Religious Tolerance: Lord Baltimore's Colony in Maryland

"8. Catholic Maryland: The First Tolerant American Colony

A. Patrick O'Hare

"Catholics . . . were the first in America to proclaim and to practice civil and religious liberty . . . The colony established by Lord Baltimore in Maryland granted civil and religious liberty to all who professed different beliefs . . . At that very time the Puritans of New England and the Episcopalians of Virginia were busily engaged in persecuting their brother Protestants for consciences' sakes and the former were . . . hanging `witches'." (50:300-01)

B. Martin Marty (P)

"Baltimore . . . welcomed, among other English people, even the Catholic-hating Puritans (8) . . . In January of 1691 . . . the new regime brought hard times for Catholics as the Protestants closed their church, forbade them to teach in public . . . but . . . the little outpost of practical Catholic tolerance had left its mark of promise on the land." (9)

C. John Tracy Ellis

"For the first time in history . . . all churches would be tolerated, and . . . none would be the agent of the government . . . Catholics and Protestants side by side on terms of equality and toleration unknown in the mother country . . . The effort proved vain; for . . . the Puritan element . . . October, 1654, repealed the Act of Toleration and outlawed the Catholics . . . condemning ten of them to death, four of whom were executed . . . From . . . 1718 down to the outbreak of the Revolution, the Catholics of Maryland were cut off from all participation in public life, to say nothing of the enactments against their religious services and . . . schools for Catholic instruction . . . During the half-century the Catholics had governed Maryland they had not been guilty of a single act of religious oppression." (10)

D. Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (P)

"In the 17th century the most notable instances of practical toleration were the colonies of Maryland, founded by Lord Baltimore in 1632 for persecuted Catholics, which offered asylum also to Protestants, and of Rhode Island, founded by Roger Williams." (78:1383)

Stories of Protestant intolerance in America prior to 1789 could be multiplied indefinitely. Jefferson and Madison, in pushing for complete religious freedom, were reacting primarily to these inter-Protestant wars for dominance, not the squabbles of post-Reformation Europe. Here we are concerned with the immediate era of the Protestant Revolution - roughly 1517 to 1600, so the above anecdotes will have to suffice as altogether typical examples."[46] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

User: Conservative's rebuttal

I have two words for User: NishantXavier: Spanish Inquisition! Conservative (talk) 07:54, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Inadvertent Protestant Praise for the Catholic Church: The Test of Vitality

"The test of vitality A better standard for comparison than the glamour of worldly progress, at best an accidental result of a religious system, is the power of self-preservation and propagation, i.e. vital energy. What are the facts? "The anti-Protestant movement in the Roman Church" says a Protestant writer, "which is generally called the Counter-Reformation, is really at least as remarkable as the Reformation itself. Probably it would be no exaggeration to call it the most remarkable single episode that has ever occurred in the history of the Christian Church. Its immediate success was greater than that of the Protestant movement, and its permanent results are fully as large at the present day. It called forth a burst of missionary enthusiasm such as has not been seen since the first day of Pentecost. So far as organization is concerned, there can be no question that the mantle of the men who made the Roman Empire has fallen upon the Roman Church; and it has never given more striking proof of its vitality and power than it did at this time, immediately after a large portion of Europe had been torn from its grasp. Printing-presses poured forth literature not only to meet the controversial needs of the moment but also admirable editions of the early Fathers to whom the Reformed Churches appealed — sometimes with more confidence than knowledge. Armies of devoted missionaries were scientifically marshalled. Regions of Europe which had seemed to be lost for ever [for example, the southern portion of Germany and parts of Austria-Hungary] were recovered to the Papacy, and the claims of the Vicar of Christ were carried far and wide through countries where they had never been heard before" (R.H. Malden, classical lecturer, Selwyn College, Cambridge, in "Foreign Missions", London, 1910, 119-20).

Dr. G. Warneck, a protagonist of the Evangelical Alliance in Germany, thus describes the result of the Kulturkampf: "The Kulturkampf (i.e. struggle for superiority of Protestantism against Catholicism in Prussia), which was inspired by political, national, and liberal-religious motives, ended with a complete victory for Rome. When it began, a few men, who knew Rome and the weapons used against her, foretold with certainty that a contest with Romanism on such lines would of necessity end in defeat for the State and in an increase of power for Romanism. . . . The enemy whom we met in battle has brilliantly conquered us, though we had all the arms civil power can supply. True, the victory is partly owing to the ability of the leaders of the Centre party, but it is truer still that the weapons used on our side were blunted tools, unfit for doing serious harm. The Roman Church is indeed, like the State, a political power, worldly to the core, but after all she is a Church, and therefore disposes of religious powers which she invariably brings into action when contending with civil powers for Supremacy. The State has no equivalent power to oppose. You cannot hit a spirit, not even the Roman spirit . . ." (Der evangelische Bund und seine Gegner", 13-14). The anti-religious Government of France is actually renewing the Kulturkampf; but no more than its German models does it succeed in "hitting the Roman spirit". Endowments, churches, schools, convents have been confiscated, yet the spirit lives.

The other mark of Catholic vitality — the power of propagation — is evident in missionary work. Long before the birth of Protestantism, Catholic missionaries had converted Europe and carried the Faith as far as China. After the Reformation they reconquered for the Church the Rhinelands, Bavaria, Austria, part of Hungary, and Poland; they established flourishing Christian communities all over North and South America and in the Portuguese colonies, wherever, in short, Catholic powers allowed them free play. For nearly three hundred years Protestants were too intent on self-preservation to think of foreign missionary work. At the present day, however, they develop great activity in all heathen countries, and not without a fair success. Malden, in the work quoted above, compares Catholic with Protestant methods and results: although his sympathy is naturally with his own, his approbation is all for the other side ...

The Catholic Church of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent than at any time in her history, and they are bound to the central Government at Rome by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of duty. Religious education is abundantly provided for clergy and laity; religious practice, morality, and works of charity are flourishing; the Catholic mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest. The hierarchy was never so united, never so devoted to the pope. The Roman unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects, of philosophies, of politics. Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference, or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic principle of authority is still working out the salvation of the Church, whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith and driving multitudes into religious indifference and estrangement from the supernatural ...

Conclusion Catholicism numbers some 270 millions of adherents [1.35 BN now; this was in 1907 - NX], all professing the same Faith, using the same sacraments, living under the same discipline; Protestantism claims roundly 100 millions of Christians, products of the Gospel and the fancies of a hundred reformers, people constantly bewailing their "unhappy divisions" and vainly crying for a union which is only possible under that very central authority, protestation against which is their only common denominator." [47]

The Truth, Continued: "The truth of the whole matter is this: religious toleration has been placed on the statute books of modern nations; the civil power has severed itself from the ecclesiastical; the governing classes have grown alarmingly indifferent to things spiritual; the educated classes are largely Rationalistic; the working classes are widely infected with anti-religious socialism; a prolific press daily and periodically preaches the gospel of Naturalism overtly or covertly to countless eager readers; in many lands Christian teaching is banished from the public schools; and revealed religion is fast losing that power of fashioning politics, culture, home life, and personal character which it used to exercise for the benefit of Christian states. Amid this almost general flight from God to the creature, Catholicism alone makes a stand: its teaching is intact, its discipline stronger than ever, its confidence in final victory is unshaken." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by [[User:|]] [[User talk:|(talk)]]

User: Conservative's rebuttal

As I noted above, European Catholicism is dying. And if it wasn't for Marxist Catholics promoting illegal immigration in the USA and liberal/leftist elites promoting open borders in the USA, the scandal-ridden USA Catholic Church would be in decline as well. In the USA, the conservative Lutherans in the Dakotas have a higher fertility rate than American Catholics and so do the American pentecostals and Amish (See sections above). Conservative (talk) 07:10, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Also, did the British Historian Thomas Macaulay predict the decline of the British Empire? If not, how prescient and culturally/organizationally astute was he?

On top of this Catholic universities are often woke and the Jesuits are very liberal and even Catholics admit that they promote heresy (See sections above).

And lastly, and this cannot be overemphasized due to the severity of the problem, the Catholic Church still has a significant homosexuality problem within its priesthood/hierarchy which even the staunch Catholic Michael Voris admits and publically decries. See: The Catholic Church is a corrupt joke. Jesus said that you shall know them by their fruits. Conservative (talk) 07:41, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

If only American and European Catholics were as pro-life as the Amish. Put another piece of weighty evidence on the Protestant side of the scale

The Amish are the fastest-growing religion in the United States, doubling every 20 years.[48] The Amish population is growing so fast that each year some families move out to acquire more farmland. They are highly successful financially and morally. By 2050 the Amish are expected to attain 1 million in total population in the United States, and by 2222 the Amish could be the majority in the U.S.[49]

The Amish have a high fertility rate.

Furthermore, please read:

Question: Why do Catholic majority states in the United States and European Catholic majority countries have such low birth rates which are below the replacement level of births? Conservative (talk) 07:49, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Amish youth groups from Davies County, IN, and Lancaster County, PA, visit Behalt as part of their preparing to make the decision of whether or not to join the Amish community on a long term basis (namely, their adulthood).
User: Conservative.

User: NishantXavier's response

Hahaha ha. "expected to attain 1 million in total population". There might be 2+ BN Catholic Christians in the world by 2050, and you're talking about Amish maybe reaching 1 MN. Catholic Church grows by both Birth Rates and Evangelism, and other churches re-uniting with Her, as I showed the Orthodox Churches are in the process of doing. Also look up the Anglican Ordinariate established under Pope St. John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI. Btw, I believe Anti-Catholic Protestants going into Catholic Countries like Brazil or Orthodox Countries like Russia and proselytizing those in such Nations with One Single Established Church into Multiple Confused Divided Denominations is schismatic and sinful behavior. Instead, let our Bishops and Priests debate and discuss with your Pastors and Theologians, try to arrive at consensus, and see if a Church Re-Union is possible. In the meanwhile, Evangelical Christians should Evangelize Non Christian Areas, like much of China, India, North Africa and the Middle East, which Great Commission Researchers call the 10/40 Window. Am on my phone now and will cite Protestant Writer Philip Jenkins on the Catholic Church in Africa shortly. He expects there will be 450 MN Catholics at minimum in Africa Alone as a very Conservative Estimate, meaning it'll be probably be much more than that. And this in Africa Alone, and this would be larger than the Entire World Population of Catholic Christians as it stood in 1950. Hallelujah! Demography is Destiny, and so thats Good News for the Catholic Church and all who love Her. Catholics and Evangelicals should debate and discuss these issues and try to arrive at a consensus where possible. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:11, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

I can cite Phillip Jenkins too and please note the bolding in the below quote which was added for emphasis.

Phillip Jenkins published the book The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity.

Chuck Colson, citing the work of Jenkins, writes:

“ As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.

For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.

According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.[50]

”

Most Pentecostals are Protestant. Conservative (talk) 16:54, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Philip Jenkins in Catholic Herald: Catholic Christianitys Incredible Growth Story

Yup. Found it. Incidentally, it was written on Sept 8, 2016. September 8 is the Birthday of a Blessed Virgin Mary in the Catholic Church. I'm sure the Queen of Saints in Heaven (Rev 12:1; even Luther knew this was about Mary) would have rejoiced at this Good News, as will all who love Jesus and Mary and their Church.

"It is strange then to realise that this Church – which is already, by far, the largest religious institution on the planet – is in fact enjoying global growth on an unprecedented scale. In 1950, the world’s Catholic population was 437 million, a figure that grew to 650 million by 1970, and to around 1.2 billion today. Put another way, Catholic numbers have doubled since 1970, and that change has occurred during all the recent controversies and crises within the Church, all the debates following Vatican II and all the claims about the rise of secularism.

Nor does the rate of growth show any sign of diminishing. By 2050, a conservative estimate suggests there should be at least 1.6 billion Catholics.

I spoke about global growth, and that “global” element demands emphasis. The Church has an excellent claim to have invented globalisation, and that goes far towards explaining just why its numbers are actually booming. Throughout history there had been so many so-called “world empires” which in reality were mainly confined to Eurasia. Only in the 16th century did the Spanish and Portuguese empires truly span the globe. For me, true globalisation began in 1578, when the Catholic Church established its diocese at Manila, in the Philippines – as a suffragan see of Mexico City, on the other side of the immense Pacific Ocean.

Those once mighty empires are long departed, but their ghosts remain in the thriving Catholic populations of Brazil, Mexico and the Philippines, which today constitute the Church’s three largest population centres. Mexico’s overall population has swelled from 50 million in 1970 to 121 million today, so of course there are lots more Catholics in that country. The Philippines, meanwhile, today claims 80 million Catholics, a number that will likely increase to well over 100 million by 2050. Last year, there were more Catholic baptisms in that country than in France, Spain, Italy and Poland combined.

A cynical observer might object that Church growth is solely the result of surging populations in particular regions where Catholicism happens to be the default religion. Certainly, as always, demographics plays its part in religious change, but this is by no means the whole story, and the clearest proof of this is found in Africa. Back in 1900, Africa had perhaps 10 million Christians of all denominations, constituting some 10 per cent of the whole population. Today, there are half a billion African Christians, accounting for half the continental population, and that number should exceed a billion by the 2040s.

This phenomenal growth – which is, incidentally, by far the largest quantitative change that has ever occurred in any religion, anywhere – is in part the result of the continent’s overall population growth.

In 1900, there were three Europeans for every African. By 2050, there will be three Africans for every European. But this expansion is also, clearly, the result of mass conversions. During the 20th century, some 40 per cent of Africa’s people shifted their allegiance from older primal faiths to Christianity.

Although Catholics do not represent the whole of this African story, they are a very significant part of it. In 1900, the whole of Africa had just a couple of million Catholics, but that number grew to 130 million by the end of the century, and today it approaches 200 million. If current trends continue, as they show every sign of doing, then by the 2040s there will be some 460 million African Catholics. Incredibly, that number would be greater than the total world population of Catholics as it stood in 1950.

Already by about 2030, we will cross a historic milestone when the number of Catholics in Africa will exceed the number for Europe. A few years after that, Africa will overtake Latin America to claim the title of the most Catholic continent. Within just a generation from now, a list of the 10 nations with the largest Catholic populations will include several names where Catholicism was virtually new in 1900: African lands such as Nigeria, Uganda, Tanzania and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Now, there are some problems with these numbers. I have been citing official Church figures, but those counts of the faithful are actually quite flawed. If you look at survey evidence of religious belief, you’ll find a major disparity between the number of people claiming to be Catholic versus the totals reported by Church authorities. But that gap is not what we might intuitively suspect. Far from optimistically over-counting the faithful, the African Church is systematically under-counting, and by a whopping 20 per cent. They might be too busy baptising people to keep very good records.

Nor is this just an African story. Just since 1980, the total number of African Catholics grew by 238 per cent, while the equivalent rate in Asia was 115 per cent, and 56 per cent in the Americas.

Of course, if you want to see Catholic growth in action, you don’t have to make the effort to travel to Africa or Asia, as booming Catholic Africa and Asia are coming to you. In recent decades, many millions of migrants from the global South have travelled northwards, and a great many of those are Catholic. We see plenty of evidence of this in British churches, and especially in the country’s old and revived pilgrimage sites, but similar patterns can be seen across Europe. Look at the number of parishes in historically Catholic Europe – in Ireland or France, say – which are now graced by priests from Nigeria or Vietnam.

This reality was brought home to me when I visited Denmark, which is historically one of the continent’s least Catholic nations. But go to a small city like Aarhus and watch the floods of people surrounding the small Catholic church, where Masses are offered in languages as diverse as Vietnamese, English, Chaldean and Tagalog (the last being the main tongue of the Philippines). The global Church comes home; or perhaps we should say, the empires strike back.

When we consider those African statistics alone, any suggestion of the Catholic Church “dying” or even stagnating is so wildly inaccurate as to be comical. Strangely, though, this is not the first time that at least some observers have felt that prospects for the Church were so dismal. Back in the 1890s, Mark Twain sagely observed that: “In this world we have seen the Roman Catholic power dying … for many centuries. Many a time we have gotten all ready for the funeral and found it postponed again, on account of the weather or something … Apparently one of the most uncertain things in the world is the funeral of a religion.”

See you at the graveside?

This article first appeared in the September 9 2016 issue of The Catholic Herald. To read the magazine in full, from anywhere in the world, go here."

Am on my phone now and at work. Will give the link when I'm back home. Can be found via Google. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:19, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

The Catholic leadership is overly represented by Europeans. Poor Catholic countries/regions underrepresented

In 2019, the Catholic publication America:The Jesuit Review indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, 21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe, while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, 42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe, while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."[51]

Geographic distribution of Catholic cardinals 2023.jpg

Question: Why are poor Catholic regions underrepresented in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals? See also: Global Christianity

Hong Kong Christians at Gateway Camp. In 2005, there were four times as many non-Western World Christians as there were Western World Christians.[52]

Christianity is the world's largest religion and it has seen tremendous growth over its 2000-year history.[53]

In terms of its geographic distribution, Christianity is the most globally diverse religion.[54] Christianity has recently seen explosive growth outside the Western World.[55] In 2000, there were twice as many non-Western Christians as Western Christians.[56] In 2005, there were four times as many non-Western Christians as there were Western World Christians.[57] There are now more non-Western missionaries than Western missionaries.[58] See also: Global scope of indigenous evangelical Christianity evangelism

Phillip Jenkins published the book The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity.

Chuck Colson, citing the work of Jenkins, writes:

“ As Penn State professor Philip Jenkins writes in The Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity, predictions like Huntingtons betray an ignorance of the explosive growth of Christianity outside of the West.

For instance, in 1900, there were approximately 10 million Christians in Africa. By 2000, there were 360 million. By 2025, conservative estimates see that number rising to 633 million. Those same estimates put the number of Christians in Latin America in 2025 at 640 million and in Asia at 460 million.

According to Jenkins, the percentage of the worlds population that is, at least by name, Christian will be roughly the same in 2050 as it was in 1900. By the middle of this century, there will be three billion Christians in the world -- one and a half times the number of Muslims. In fact, by 2050 there will be nearly as many Pentecostal Christians in the world as there are Muslims today.[59]

”

According to Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary's Center for the Study of Global Christianity (CSGC), which has made projections up until the year of 2050, the percentage of the global population that are evangelical Christians/Pentecostals is expected to increase.[60]

Post made my User: Conservative. Conservative (talk) 16:40, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: NishantXavier's response

Who says they are? You should read Nelson Mandela. "I am very grateful to the Catholic Church. When Black People couldn't yet sit on a Bus (in America), the Catholic Church had already made them Cardinals". Catholic means Universal. The Catholic Church is a Universal Church. She embraces, America, Africa, Asia, Europe and Oceania. Both Americas. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:51, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Your sources Philip Jenkins, whom I quoted extensively above, and Centre for Global Christianity, agree with me. The Catholic Church invented Global Christianity. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 16:52, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

As far as underrepresentation of non-European poor countries in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals, I will give my quote and its source again but this time add bolding for emphasis.

In 2019, the Catholic publication America:The Jesuit Review indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, 21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe, while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, 42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe, while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."[61]

The regions Africa and Latin America as a whole are not as wealthy as Europe. Western Europe tends to be more Catholic than Eastern Europe. Western Europe is generally wealthier than Eastern/Central Europe.

I hope this clarifies things for you. Conservative (talk) 17:00, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: NishantXavier's rejoinder

Your source mentions about 70% and leaves the remaining 30%. 21.8+48.5~70 (app). Similarly 42.5+17.5+10=70 exactly. Presumably the other 30% roughly of Catholics live in Africa and Asia and have 30% Representation in the College of Cardinals. So it all works out. There are some very Conservative African and Asian Cardinals. Cardinal Robert Sarah and Cardinal Malcolm Ranjith come to mind. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 17:13, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

User: Conservative's rejoinder

Please pay extra attention to the bolding below as I changed the bolding in the quote above to make things even more obvious.

In 2019, the Catholic publication America:The Jesuit Review indicated: "According to Vatican statistics published in February, 21.8 percent of the world’s Catholics live in Europe, while 48.5 percent live in the Americas. In the current College of Cardinals, 42.5 percent of the cardinal electors come from Europe, while 17.5 percent come from Latin America and another 10 percent come from Canada and the United States."[62]

Are you denying that Europeans were overly represented in the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals in 2019? If so, look at the bolding in my quote above 5 times more or 10 times more if necessary.

Are you denying that Catholic Europeans tend to be wealthier than African Catholics?

Are you denying that Catholic Europeans tend to be wealthier than Latin American Catholics?

Also, please notice that my graphic above indicates that in 2023, 42 percent of the Catholic Church's College of Cardinals are from Europe so there wasn't a marked change from 2019 to 2023 as far as the percentage of the College of Cardinals being European. Conservative (talk) 17:41, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

Your Math doesn't check out as I explained above. NishantXavierFor Christ the King 18:03, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

8 of the most bad/immoral Popes in history

Below is a screen capture of Wikipedia's article The Bad Popes:

8 of the most immoral popes in history.jpg



Questions: Who do you think was the Catholic Church's most bad and/or immoral Pope? Why do you believe that he was the Catholic Church's most bad and/or immoral Pope? Conservative (talk) 18:15, August 4, 2023 (EDT)

References List

  1. ↑ http://mises.org/daily/1937
  2. ↑ https://creation.com/darwinism-and-the-nazi-race-holocaust
  3. ↑ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  4. ↑ The Protestant Work Ethic: Alive & Well…In China By Hugh Whelchel on September 24, 2012
  5. ↑ Christianity Today, The Surprising Discovery About Those Colonialist, Proselytizing Missionaries, January 8, 2014
  6. ↑ The Road to Serfdom
  7. ↑ Global Media Outreach - Impact
  8. ↑ 1,000+ Winners and Losers of the December 2020 Google Core Algorithm Update
  9. ↑ Birth rates by state
  10. ↑ (1540–1541) "Lecture on Genesis Chapter Twenty-Five", Luther's Works, Vol. 4 (in English). United States: Concordia Publishing House. 
  11. ↑ (1542) "Comfort for Women Who Have Had a Miscarriage", Luther's Works, Vol. 43 (in English). United States: Fortress Press, 243–250. 
  12. ↑ (1544) "Letter concerning Rosina von Truchsess", Luther on Women: A Sourcebook (in English). Cambridge University Press. ISBN 9780521658843. “Finally, she drew a number [of men] to her, and became pregnant by one of them. She asked my maid to jump on her body in order to kill the fetus.” 
  13. ↑ Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life (December 19, 2011,), Global Christianity: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World's Christian Population, p. 67.
  14. ↑ Journal of Church and State, Desecularization: A Conceptual Framework by Vyacheslav Karpov, 2010
  15. ↑ Peter L. Berger, “The Desecularization of the World: A Global Overview,” in The Desecularization of the World: Resurgent Religion and World Politics, ed. Peter L. Berger (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1999)
  16. ↑ Pentecostalism – Protestant Ethic or Cargo Cult?, Peter Berger, July 29, 2010
  17. ↑ Atheist author and advocate is absolutely TERRIFIED about the future growth of pentecostal Christianity, Examining Atheism, March 2019
  18. ↑ Cracks in the atheist edifice, The Economist, November 1, 2014
  19. ↑ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live, By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey, Washington Post, May 23, 2013
  20. ↑ Top 50 Countries With Highest Proportion of Atheists / Agnostics (Zuckerman, 2005)
  21. ↑ A surprising map of where the world’s atheists live, Washington Post By Max Fisher and Caitlin Dewey May 23, 2013
  22. ↑ When Will China Become the World’s Largest Christian Country?, Slate
  23. ↑ In China, a church-state showdown of biblical proportions
  24. ↑ Cracks in the atheist edifice, The Economist, November 1, 2014
  25. ↑ Protestant Christianity is booming in China, The Economist, Sep 15th 2020
  26. ↑ Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century by Eric Kaufmann
  27. ↑ Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century by Eric Kaufmann
  28. ↑ Shall the Religious Inherit the Earth?: Demography and Politics in the Twenty-First Century by Eric Kaufmann
  29. ↑ When will the world be over half evangelical? by Justin Long
  30. ↑ In a France suspicious of religion, evangelicalism's message strikes a chord
  31. ↑ Evangelicals in France
  32. ↑ In a France suspicious of religion, evangelicalism's message strikes a chord
  33. ↑ Evangelical Churches Flourishing in Europe, Voice of America website, 2009
  34. ↑ London Churchgoing and Other News
  35. ↑ I'm not surprised Evangelical Christianity is on the rise by Ed West, The Telegraph, December 14th, 2009
  36. ↑ Only 38% of Brits identify as Christian; lowest proportion in poll's history, Christian Post, 2019
  37. ↑ Church growth is not just for Evangelicals
  38. ↑ London Churchgoing and Other News
  39. ↑ London Churchgoing and Other News
  40. ↑ I'm not surprised Evangelical Christianity is on the rise by Ed West, The Telegraph, December 14th, 2009
  41. ↑ Ghanaian pastor seeks to 're-Christianize' Germany
  42. ↑ https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
  43. ↑ http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm
  44. ↑ The Road to Serfdom
  45. ↑ The Road to Serfdom
  46. ↑ http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/protin.htm
  47. ↑ https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm
  48. ↑ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2012-08-01/why-the-amish-population-is-exploding#:~:text=But%20according%20to%20a%20new,in%201989%20of%20about%20100%2C000.
  49. ↑ By doubling its population every 20 years, the Amish population would increase by 1024 times in 200 years.
  50. ↑ How Christianity is Growing Around the World by Chuck Colson
  51. ↑ In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes, America:The Jesuit Review, 2019
  52. ↑ Is Christianity taking over the planet?
  53. ↑ 2000 YEARS OF CHRISTIAN INCREASE
  54. ↑
  55. ↑
  56. ↑ Is Christianity taking over the planet?
  57. ↑ Is Christianity taking over the planet?
  58. ↑ Is Christianity taking over the planet?
  59. ↑ How Christianity is Growing Around the World by Chuck Colson
  60. ↑ Global adherents of the major religions/worldviews, Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary's Center for the Study of Global Christianity
  61. ↑ In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes, America:The Jesuit Review, 2019
  62. ↑ In the College of Cardinals, European dominance slowly wanes, America:The Jesuit Review, 2019
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