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Talk:Essay: Hitler was a Communist in early 1919

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Hitler was not a communist in 1919. After the collapse (Nov. 1918), demobilization, and Hitler's return to Munich, Hitler was sent into various meetings of socialist, communist and revolutionary groups by a Reichswehr Captain to spy on the meetings in the revolutionary atmosphere of the times. One such group was what eventually became the NSDAP. Other groups were Bolshevik groups aligned with the ongoing Moscow revolutions.

Suggested readings:

  • For biographical background on Hitler in this period: Konrad Heiden Hitler - widely viewed as most authentic and authoritive for this period (Heiden first met Hitler personally in 1923);
  • Joseph Schumpeter, Capitalism, Socialism, and Democracy, Part V, A Historical Sketch of Socialist Parties, Chapter XXVII From the First to the Second World War, particularly Sections II, III, and IV for understanding the socio-political situation.

Simply attending a meeting as a spy doesn't make one a communist. This Essay is dangerously close to Holocaust revisionism. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 16:19, October 25, 2023 (EDT)

Nice denialist effort there, pal. That precisely is the neo-Marxist narrative pushed by propagandist Ian Kershaw and refuted by TIKhistory; Hitler was elected into the Communist Bavarian Soviet Republic, which means Bavarian Communists considered him a qualified Communist leader. Kershaw himself admits that there isn't enough evidence to indicate Hitler was merely some opportunist (which the TIK video cites). Ernst Rohm once rebuked Hitler for joining the Communists instead of the Freikorps.
Regardless, Nazism is a form of Communism anyways. I hope this clarifies matters. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 16:38, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
No it doesn't clarify matters. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 16:40, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Too bad! I guess you don't like factual reality. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 16:41, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
No, I've only read all the background materials and had a step-grandfather who was present in Bavaria from 1919 to 1927. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 16:45, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
The same Bavaria which ushered in a late-1910s Communist paradise later supported the Nazis. And the evidence for the Communist root of Nazism doesn't stop there! In Mein Kampf, Hitler attempts to distance himself from any involvement in Jewish Communist Kurt Eisner's Bavarian Soviet Republic (which again, TIK explains in his video). So any effort to disconnect Hitler from Bavarian Communism is itself Hitlerist propaganda.
Marxism denounced earlier forms of Socialism as "not real Socialism," and declared that "socializing the people" to create a Communist utopia meant a religiously motivated mass murder of bourgeois capitalists, seen as an outgrowth of Judaism. Nazism just took it a step further: instead of antisemitism limited to religion, it was racial, so the concept of race replaced "economic classes." For Nazism, Communism was the primary target of "not real Socialism™" because they posed the primary rivaling threat (just as Stalinism and Troskyism were rivals), and creating a Socialist utopia means mass-killing Jews on the basis of ethnicity, which as we know was the Holocaust. In 1941, Hitler admitted that "basically National Socialism and Marxism are the same." The fuhrer opposed Weimar Germany from the left wing, lamenting that they "had never read Marx." —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 16:51, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
I don't think you even understand what communism is. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 16:56, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
...says the one who doesn't even properly capitalize the term. Oh, that's right, you yourself are a Comsymp who hates capitalism. Right, I almost forgot. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 16:58, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
On behalf of sane, historically educated conservatives, I declare VICTORY! Olé! Olé! Olé! —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 16:57, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
(ec) The only thing you know is communism = bad, so you toss anything and everybody into the equation, from Satan to Taylor Swift.
You've been hanging around with User:Conservabiden too much, and his simpletonness is rubbing off on you. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:00, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Oh boo hoo hoo, I'm actually an anti-Socialist conservative instead of a Comsymp! "WaAaAaAaAaaaAaaAaaAAAAaaAA" —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 17:02, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
(ec) In previous discussions, it's obvious you don't understand what fascism is. Read the section from Schumpeter, Administering Capitalism from the above citation. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:04, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
AHAHAHAHAHAAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA- 😂
Oh, where do I begin... you yourself throw around the word "fascist" without consideration for its original definition. I said this before: Fascism is national syndicalism with a philosophy of actualism. I'm now getting spam calls from your neighbors annoyed of your local irony meters exploding. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 17:10, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Your argument is like saying, "Jews and Arabs are all Semites, so let them kill each other". It's misleading and prejudicial. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:47, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Um, what?? So according to you, Nazis are comparable to Jews, eh? —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 19:32, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Did you say you went to public school? RobSGive Peace a Chance! 21:07, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
You tell me. :) —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 21:28, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
It's showing. Not such much in your faulty conclusions (although it does), but your method of arriving at those conclusions. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:04, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Your whataboutisms and deflections don't improve your dirt-poor arguments one bit. You realize that, right? —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 22:14, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
No. I'm just giving you a heads up. As an Admin, the first complaint we see that Conservapedia is hosting Holocaust revisionism, you can kiss all your efforts good bye. My investigation of the matter is already complete. So think about how much time and effort you want to put into this junk. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:22, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
You're absolutely right that Conservapedia has a Holocaust revisionism problem. A certain Comsymp administrator denies that the Nazis are ideologically rooted in Marxist Communism and carried out the Holocaust because they were Socialists. Your sources are neo-Marxist propagandists; mine are renegade conservative, libertarian, and classical liberal authors and researchers among the best of the public.
Oh, my efforts are "over"? What are you going to do, mark this essay for deletion and fail by another 1–7 vote? —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 22:33, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
I doubt your TikTokHistory or whatever it is has reviewed anymore original primary source materials that I myself am already familiar with, or unearthed any new research. Your problem is, you already attempted to remove two references to Communists being victims of the Holocaust. Hence, you already declared a motive. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:14, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
The Communists brought the Nazis to power via the Berlin transport strike, so any supposed "cOmMuNiST vIcTimS" of Nazism are hardly any different from, say, loyal Soviet operatives killed by Stalin in the Great Purge. —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 23:26, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
You have no knowledge of the subject, and I recommend you stop trolling responses. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:03, October 26, 2023 (EDT)
Additionally, you do have the Move function, so you could retitle it yourself.
See, this is the purpose of Team CP; if you took the pledge, your efforts could be treated with more deference. Without it, you look like a troll. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 22:26, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
"bUt tEaM cEe pEE" The only other person who signed up is NishantXavier, who consistently has sided against you on key disputes, especially AFD votes. —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 22:33, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
That is your loss, cause I'm not going to waste a whole lot of time with a troll. You have the opportunity to shake off giving that impression, and ask for good faith review and treatment, but thus far refuse. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:19, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
My loss? Your drunkard whining on this talk page just gave the essay extra attention (especially on RC) and helped boost page view growth. Thanks! —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 23:26, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Thanks. The only thing I find about Tik is on the CODOH website. Not a good sign. But the reviews are somewhat mixed. He's not really an authority, but a guy who has skirted YouTube rules to get views so far. I'd recommend proceeding with caution. I'm gaining some context about your revisionist views, but your removal of Communists as victims from the Holocaust page was not getting off on the right foot. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 23:53, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Well duh, Nazsymps will squirm over TIKhistory's videos just as much as neo-Marxist would. You saying "bUt tIk iS oN tHe CoDoH wEbsiTe" indicates two things: firstly, you suspiciously spend too much time browsing neo-Nazi websites, which is concerning. Secondly, just because someone on a fringe web forum mentions another person does not mean that form is associated with the person in question.
"sKirTed YoUtuBe rUlEs" [citation needed] And I really don't care and won't take to heart what a liar and white supremacism shill (remember the Admiral Farmer episode?) like you has to say about an actually dedicated history researcher like TIKhistory. But feel free to continue making a fool out yourself on this page. It'll continue to boost essay page views and draw attention from RC. :) —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 00:03, October 26, 2023 (EDT)
I still recommend joining Team CP, cause this whole thing can get out of hand real fast, and I can shut it down real fast. IF you want good will and good faith, you know what to do. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 00:00, October 26, 2023 (EDT)
In your dreams, pal. —LT Rev. 22:13 Thursday, 00:04, October 26, 2023 (EDT)

The Nazi "left wing" were "far-right," and the Nazi "far-right" were Communists

This is mostly explained in the essay itself, but it's nice to reiterate nonetheless. Neo-Marxist Leftists argue the Nazis were "far-right" but had a "left wing" led by Ernst Rohm and the Strassers. And yet, those three were previously part of the Freikorps paramilitaries, branded by the same neo-Marxists as "far-right." And apparently Hitler was an "anti-Socialist far-rightist," despite previously being a Bavarian Communist fighting the Freikorps! And if Hitler was just an opportunist and not a real Communist, he could've easily joined a Freikorps group. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 17:22, October 25, 2023 (EDT)

The problem is in the title of the Essay.
My apologies, but the world just isn't as simplistic as you'd like to believe. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:40, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
And frankly speaking, the more I listen to you and Conservabiden, the more I can see and understand how Nazism was classified on the so-called "right". RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:51, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
RobSmith, you are the one who believes anyone with anything negative to say about Putin is a Nazi. You need to learn that the world is not going to dumb itself down to your intelligence level. MayGodBless (talk) 18:59, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
You're the one facing a de-nazification trial. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 19:05, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
In your dreams. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 19:30, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
You need to pray Western propaganda is all lies and bs ("we fight them there so we don't have to fight them here") cause if they ever made it here, you'd be rounded up to face a de-nazification tribunal. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 19:21, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Look, man. Let's listen to some of your propaganda and apply some elementry logic to it. The Russians are taking their sweet time to win because they want to minimize casualties. But they are invading because the Nazis are killing people right now. Which is it? Are the Nazis an immediate problem, and the Russians are just twiddling their thumbs while the Nazis have free reign? Or are they so pathetic and weak that no one on the world stage takes them seriously? I'll give you a hint: countries would support the Russians in the UN if they thought Russia was a powerful country. Last I checked, they can convince a dozen countries to back its motions. The West can convince 100+. Apply an ounce of critical thinking. MayGodBless (talk) 18:53, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
Russia knew from day one of its risks of war with NATO; their fears were confirmed after BoJo carried the message from Biden's autopen that the US taxpayer would pick up the bill for everything (including civil service payroll & pensions) while the Zelensky regime could rake off as much money as it could steal. RobSRecovering Republican 00:32, December 28, 2025 (EST)
"the Russians are just twiddling their thumbs or are they so pathetic and weak"?
No. They have de-militarized NATO by attrition. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 01:41, October 28, 2023 (EDT)
So they are just letting the Nazis run the show while they fulfill their foreign policy objectives? Seems kinda pathetic. MayGodBless (talk) 11:27, October 28, 2023 (EDT)
BBC: Ukraine war: Western allies say they are running out of ammunition, October 3, 2023 (Note: Oct. 3, four days before the Oct 7 Hamas attack in Israel. NATO was already defeated and de-militarized in Ukraine prior to the Israel-Hamas war. Now it faces the combined strength of the Iranian and Chinese military industrial complexes, as well as the Russian Federation, which is not quite fully mobilized yet for war). RobSGive Peace a Chance! 17:08, October 29, 2023 (EDT)
WWII took over 1,200 days; modern warfare is a bit more complicated, with landmines and satellite reconnaissance. The US can't supply artillery shells and Germany just raised the price of its artillery shells 90% from $2000 to $3600 because of Russian energy sanctions. The West has nothing but dimwits who made the idiotic decision to go to war with Russia. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 11:47, October 28, 2023 (EDT)
His whole conjured fantasy of Kremlin-run so-called "denazification" tribunals against any Westerner who criticizes Commuputinist tyranny is ridiculously laughable. —LT Rev. 22:13 Friday, 19:06, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
"cOnSeRvaBiDEn"
"rEvIsIOniSm"
"fAShist"
It's getting boring by now. —LT Rev. 22:13 Wednesday, 19:33, October 25, 2023 (EDT)
Yep. LT, you clearly have more intelligence in your pinky than RobSmith has displayed over his life. MayGodBless (talk) 18:53, October 27, 2023 (EDT)
Thanks; I spent a bit of time since last year doing research on red–brown fronts, and there's a lot more fascinating details than I expected! Shame the Communist and neo-Marxist propagandists buried this info from mainstream sources for all this time. —LT Rev. 22:13 Friday, 19:04, October 27, 2023 (EDT)

Comment

Dear LT. Admittedly I have not spent wide research on this angle of Hitler's early communism leaning. One thing is for sure, his anti-Jewish hatred was not necessarily connected to communism or anti communism.

Note Hitler's (post WW1) outburst at Carl Wilhelm Petersen (1868-1933) mayor of Hamburg, whose mother was Jewish. This from early Haretz in 1961, (long before the year 2000 - not passing the lynch test) when the paper had credibility. Haretz, Dec 22, 1961.

The man who served in the same regiment as Hitler by Natan Ribon [...] The basement episodes Mr. Lustig ran into Hitler one more time .. after the (first world) war. It was in Munich at the meeting of the "Democratic Party" held in ... basement. In the debate that arose after the words of Mr. Petersen, he was the mayor of Hamburg at the time, the disheveled and tattered figure of Adolf Hitler suddenly stood up from the crowd of listeners. Instead of replying to the substance of things, the young man struck by the sick hatred for Jews burst out with hateful anti-Semitic words, he accused Peterson that his mother is Jewish. Mr. Lustig cites the sentence that Petersen replied to Hitler and which was engraved -his verbatim and spirit- into his memory: "Indeed - Peterson defied Hitler, "My mother is Jewish, she was a wonderful woman." They refused to recommend a promotion Mr. Lustig adds and says that Hitler's commander at headquarters, Unteroffizier, Weimar, who was his (Lustig's) personal friend, could not stand Hitler and rejected repeated requests to promote him. Lustig himself encountered Hitler several times when he visited the battalion headquarters on vacation. "He was an unusual type, closed in on himself and left the impression of being vague, as someone whose mind is not settled on him. He never participated in soldiers' celebrations and parties, and even at Christmas retired to a "corner to be alone." This impression coincides with Scheerer's suspicion of Hitler's secretive personality. "He did not receive gifts or letters from home from others. He never asked for freedom, nor did he show any interest in women like the other soldiers in battle." More than once, Lustig heard a negative opinion about Hitler's behavior as a soldier, from the mouth of his commander Weimar....

More about this Bernhard Lusig, see this New evidence helps to 'cement the case' against Hitler's First World War ....Telling (talk)

Thanks for your input, Telling! So Hitler's antisemitism was not necessarily correlated to Communism? ...interesting. —LT Rev. 22:13 Friday, 15:53, November 3, 2023 (EDT)
Hitler was a Russophobe long before he was an antisemite. According to Mein Kampf he was a Russophobe as early as the Russo-Japanese war when he was perhaps 14 or 15 years old. His antisemitism did not occur or become pronounced until during or immediately after the First World War. when he was now 25-30 years old. Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany's loss in the war, and tagged on his disdain for Russians as the "Semite-led masses".
The particular point LT has focused on relates to an undocumented niche in Hitler's early post -WWI career. Hitler was photographed at Kurt Eisner's funeral wearing a black arm patch in Feb. 1919 and the documentary evidence of Hiter officially working for Reichswehr intelligence is dated July 1919. There is no evidence Hitler was a member of any party nor held ideological views akin to what was perceived as "communism" in Leninist Russia in this 6 month period of early 1919. It was at this time Hitler was formulating his views that Marxism, Bolshevism, and Communism were "Jewish conspiracies" that had hoaxed the "Semite-led untermenschen". RobSGive Peace a Chance! 15:25, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
See also Brigitte Hamann's long awaited Hitler's Vienna which fills in the gaps of Hitler's pre-war life in Vienna. There is no evidence that Hitler harbored antisemitic views in his "down and out" period. His antisemitism, and it is important to note it was not limited to just Hitler and the Nazis; this "global" antisemitism grew out of the trenches and immediate aftermath of WWI. This was the time the Protocols of the Wise Elders of Zion reached a wider circulation, and viewed as prophetic by a generation of German, French, British and other nationalities to explain a Jewish plot to destroy the German, Austrian, and Russian monarchies.
And the reason for his name not turning up in Reichswehr records until July 1919 is simple enough to explain: we know he was attending meetings of several socialist revolutionary groups in the immediate aftermath of the fall of the monarchy. This was likely a period of vetting by Reichswehr intelligence and his name finally appears on paper should he get caught up in an arrest in the atmosphere of chaos and violence between competing revolutionary groups. IOWS, Reichswehr records essentially say, "He's our boy, the information he provided over the past 6 months checks out."RobSGive Peace a Chance! 16:41, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
The next question to be examined is idiom: LT's misuse of the term "Communism" (with a capital "C" in the post-Soviet era) in widespread Western perceptions vs. the use of "communism" in 1919 - a theoretical doctrine which, like Marxism and socialism, had never gained control of any government anywhere on the planet prior to 1917, and Lenin, Trotsky, and other leaders attempt to implement the 70 year old theoretical Marxist doctrine without any plans or instructions how to govern once the bourgeois power regime had been destroyed. The term is used here by LT to view "Communism" through the cloud and prism of historical prejudice based on post-Cold War and Soviet perceptions, and not how it was viewed by Hitler, Lenin, and other revolutionary figures of 1919. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 21:00, November 4, 2023 (EDT)
Lt's sole argument is communism = bad, therefore Nazism = Communism = bad, which of course is Holocaust revisionism. RobSGive Peace a Chance! 21:02, November 4, 2023 (EDT)

Awesome Essay!

This is an incredibly well-written, well-sourced essay, and I enjoyed learning from it. Cazle (talk) 19:37, March 31, 2024 (EDT)

Hitler was no more a communist than the Tajik born paid terrorists in the Crocus massacre were suicidal ISIS-K jihadis. RobSZelensky didn't kill himself 20:19, March 31, 2024 (EDT)

Here's the error in the premise

Hitler was not an ideological communist. Hitler was in competition with the communists, appealing to the same radical revolutionary mobs at a very chaotic time of upheaval. That's why there is overlapping rhetoric and sometimes Hitler appearing before the same angry crowds the communists were appealing to. Yes, both were revolutionary - wanting to overthrow the same elitists who brought about the destruction of WWI and its aftermath.

They both were appealing to the "working class" against the powerful elites. The nationalism Hitler preached was exclusive, while the communists were multicultural. The situation was somewhat very similar to our own time. RobSRecovering Republican 23:23, December 27, 2025 (EST)

In 1919, neither the nationalists or communists had experience in governing. They did not have the perspective on Nazism or Communism that we have today. The "elites" or "bourgeois" who held power and lost it in the war, were disgraced. In 1919, the historical perspective of revolutionaries competing for power was the failed 1848 Revolutions, and the two "revolutionary thinkers", if you wanna call them that, emerging out of 1848 were Marx and Darwin. Both nationalists and communists shared an affinity for Darwin.

When Lenin came to power, Marx guided the revolutionary theory how to overthrow the elites, but did not provide any guidance on how to govern going forward (hence, you have Marxism-Leninism or the theory of permanent revolution). Leninism as a doctrine for governing, was just beginning to emerge.

So while both communists and nationalists laid claim to "Socialism" with its atheist component, Hitler spent much time divorcing "socialism" from Marxism. Meanwhile, the "socialists" or communists in Moscow declared "World Revolution" or open borders against all bourgeois regimes. So we are getting well ahead of ourselves.

Bottomline, Hitler was not, or ever was, an ideological communist. His racial theories are collectivist, and exclusive. His fight, as it developed, was against the Asiatic hordes (just like today). RobSRecovering Republican 23:46, December 27, 2025 (EST)

And if you think the "civilized" West of today, 20 centuries after Christ, can't be deceived into believing and following BS and committing horrific crimes against non-Westerners, you don't understand diddly-jack about WWII or the Holocaust. RobSRecovering Republican 00:01, December 28, 2025 (EST)

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