Talk:Ukraine

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Part of this article was in part copied from Citizendium and Wikipedia

RJJensen 18:27, 14 March 2009 (EDT)

does the following phrase contain a typo or just a word I don't know? "and remaining food wtocks were forcibly removed"? Jsparks 03 May 2011

Ukrainian nationalists

It may be a bit of hype to claim all Ukrainians are for use of the Ukrainian dialect, spellings, etc. The Russians are true multiculturalists, and many Ukrainians are for positive integration and cooperation with both Russians who are resident in Ukraine, and their Russian Federation neighbor. There is also a segment of Ukrainian nationalists - many who are quite literally fascists and hate Russians, Jews, Poles, etc. The Soviet Union battled them throughout its existence. The Nazis used them to commit atrocities on civilians. The United States, under James V. Forrestal, mistakenly considered them anti-communists, when in fact their true motivation is anti-ethnic Russian hatred. Since czarist times, these Ukrainian nationalists view Russia, later the USSR, and now the Russian Federation as seeking to dominate and control Ukrainians. Not all Ukrainians then, or now, hold this belief.

The well publicized culture of corruption can be cited as to why the Ukraine (like Palestine), may not be fit to hold the status of a sovereign state. It is not a "frontline" state, as Deep Staters repeatedly announced in the impeachment hearings. Sevastopol will never be a NATO naval base, anymore than the UK would allow Dublin, Ireland to be a U-boat sanctuary during two World Wars.

There are Ukrainian integrationists, let's call them moderates, who are not on a crusade to use the language and spellings. Many Ukrainian nationalists who drive these issues are widely considered Nazis and fascists. We should be careful in the Intro of implying there is an all-out ethnic war between Russians and Ukrainians. There is not. There are, however, Ukrainian nationalists and fascists, such as Alexandra Chalupa and Alexander Vindman, many resident in the Ukrainian Diaspora community, who will manipulate the Russian and American superpowers (even German and other EU members) to serve Ukrainian nationalist and fascist objectives.

Question: When did the Ukrainian nationalist community jump ship from the anti-communist GOP to the Democrats in the United States?
Answer: In 1992, with George H.W. Bush's famous "Chicken Kiev" speech to the Ukrainian parliament, encouraging them to remain in the Russian Federation. The Clinton administration solidified this bloc with the Budapest Protocols of 1994 recognizing Ukrainian independence. With all the corruption we've seen, of paying Paul Manafort, the Podesta brothers, and Hunter Biden protection money to a big state sponsor, is just a continuation of the corruption during Soviet times.

Khrushchev, who was a fully integrated Ukrainian multiculturalist, served on the Politburo to represent Ukrainian interests and eventually rose to head of state. Khrushchev rewarded Ukraine with the Crimea (without a plebiscite of its Russian ethnic majority) in 1954 because he believed communist ideology had defeated Ukrainian ethno-fascism for all time. Khrushchev won his position in the Soviet hierarchy because he organized Ukrainians into the Red Army against the Germans and their allied Ukrainian Banderists - the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists - which (1) served the Waffen SS, (2) organized the Ukrainian parliament in 1992, (3) took over the Democratic Ethnic Outreach Council (DEOC) after Clinton's recognition of Ukraine in 1994, and which Alexandra Chalupa is a director; (here's an interesting item from 1988, Ex-nazis Among Leadership Ranks of Republican Outreach Groups; those same ex-Nazis and their ideology have now, for the past 25 years, been in the leadership ranks of the Democratic party, Chalupa and Vindman being two of the most visible).

Bottomline: We should be careful about pandering to anti-Russian xenophobes on the issue of the Ukrainian language. It is exactly what they want, and it's being used as a prime issue to impeach a president and overturn American democracy. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 15:14, 23 November 2019 (EST)

This is no small issue

Even in Soviet times, NATO was regarded as a fascist entity continuing the fight of the Third Reich. In this picture, you see Biden's buddies with both the Swastika and NATO flags.

The current fighting is in the Donbass region, site of [Mamiya Hill] and the Monument to the Liberators of the Donbass, Donetsk, Ukraine commemorating the victory at Stalingrad. Hitler chose this ethnically mixed region to exploit anti-Russian sentiment and bet the farm on the outcome of the war. Here's a Soviet era film narrated by Burt Lancaster taped on Mamiya Hill (well worth watching, at least the first 5 minutes). A week ago Russian TV announced the monument is being restored. Here's the Sword of Stalingrad being presented to Stalin by Churchill and FDR at the Teheran Conference. The Sword is depicted in Europe's tallest monument on Mamiya Hill.

All this we are supposed to forget. The Russians are supposed to ignore their own history and their victory over fascism. These are essentially the arguments behind "Ukraine is a frontline state", "aid to Ukraine", and "Russian expansionism" (there is no Russian expansionism; there is however NATO expansionism).

The pro-Deep State, military industrial complex, pro-Ukraine, anti-Russian impeachment movement is essentially for the US and NATO to go to Crimea and the Donbass and finish the job that Hitler screwed up. Wake up! RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 16:44, 23 November 2019 (EST)

All of which reminds me we never settled on your Christmas present. How about a nice bare-chested Putin riding a shark duvet cover? JohnZ (talk) 17:33, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Putin will be gone before Trump. You and your Ukrainian neo-Nazi buddies and Democrats need to find the next Russian leader to demonize. The issues remain the same. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 17:54, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Haha. 30-odd GOP senators aren't facing the voters in 2020, and are thus free to vote with their conscience. Plenty of them despise Trump. JohnZ (talk) 19:01, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Really? You are so far off base you can be called out with a softball toss to first base. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 22:38, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Bless your heart. You think the likes of Romney, Rubio and Cruz aren't itching to pull the trigger? That the establishment GOP doesn't want its party back? They'll break late and quick, just like they did with Nixon. JohnZ (talk) 23:40, 23 November 2019 (EST)

Republicans are not opportunists for momentary advantage (unlike Commucrats). The notion of precedent still applies. An impeachment of Trump on such flimsy terms would basically destroy Article I of the Constitution, all Supreme Court precedents on Executive Privilege, the Bill of Rights, and host of other Amendments. It's not Trump's career at stake, it is the future of the Office of the Presidency, constitutional due process rights of all citizens, and voter rights. GOP is just baiting the hook for the Commucrats to go down this road.

Politicians have a saying in America, "Never stand in the way of your opponent as he self destructs." All GOP House and Senate members know full well a vote against Trump is the death knell of the Republican party. The Commucrats will survive, but the Democrat party is currently self-destructing.

Trump has already destroyed both - the GOP establishment and the DNC establishment. Targeting Trump only makes Deep State crimes more of an emotional issue for Trump supporters. Both Kennedy and Nixon (who ran against each other in 1960) were railroaded out of town by the Deep State; Trump is their third attempt at overturning an American election (I seriously doubt if social media existed in 1974, the fake news media could've won against Nixon). The result has been endless wars and imperialism. The American people want their government back. That is not really a partisan issue. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 00:25, 24 November 2019 (EST)

You forget quite how far removed you are from the thinking of the average GOP senator. You might not like it, but for them you're living in a shack out on the very farthest edges of Crazytown. They want your vote, for sure, but they don't take many of your concerns the least bit seriously. They also know you loathe liberals and Democrats in general, and are unlikely to abandon the party for good as long as it remains solid on issues like 2A and abortion.

So for those not up for re-election until 2022 or 2024, the only real questions are a) how angry are you still likely to be with them when primary season next rolls around, and b) how likely is it they'll face a viable challenger willing and able to harness that Dolchstoß anger?

"Considerably less" is a fairly safe bet for a), given that liberals are bound to have done something to enrage you in the meantime, and "not very" is equally safe for b), given the relative scarcity of genuinely charismatic populist demagogues. JohnZ (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Soviet battle songs (!) / Huntington's take

Watch the first 5 minutes of the Russian/Burt Lancaster film linked above; then wonder why Angela Merkel refuses to help the Ukraine against Russia, and why Democrats want Trump to pick up where Hitler left off. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 00:41, 24 November 2019 (EST)

The music at the start of that film is "The Sacred War" battle song from WWII, which is performed regularly at public concerts throughout Russia, particularly since 2014. Read the lyrics here and watch a 2 minute performance. These fascist vermin scum testifying before Schiff's committee, and any idiot fool who listens to them, have no idea what they are trying to get America into. The NATO flag will never fly over Crimea.

And note, even though the song is not the Russian national anthem, people rise to their feet, you don't see any kneelers - easily verifiable by the dozens of public performances posted on Youtube in the past two years. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 03:34, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Huntington's take

“

In 1993, Samuel Huntington put the cat among the international relations pigeons with an article in Foreign Affairs magazine titled speculatively “The Clash of Civilizations?” He expanded it to book length and it was published in 1996 as The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order. The book was immediately condemned by the multi-cultural complex because of its staunch defence of Western values, but its stock rose significantly after 9/11 as people woke up to the reality that the new, anti-Western barbarians were already at the gates....

In chapter 7, which deals with “Core States, Concentric Circles and Civilizational Order”, he looks at “Russia and its Near Abroad” and lays out several scenarios for Ukraine, “a cleft country, with two different cultures.” Its “civilizational fault line between the West and Orthodoxy runs through its heart and has done so for centuries” says Huntington and he suggests that “Ukraine could split into two separate entities, the eastern of which could merge with Russia.” He also quotes a Russian general as saying, “Ukraine or rather Eastern Ukraine will come back in five, ten or fifteen years. Western Ukraine can go to hell!” This leads him to conclude: “Such a rump Uniate and Western-oriented Ukraine, however, would only be viable if it had strong and effective Western support. Such support, is, in turn likely to be forthcoming only if relations between the West and Russia deteriorated seriously and came to resemble those of the Cold War.”

And here we are 2014, where relations between the West and Russia have deteriorated seriously and talk of a new Cold War fills the air. Huntington rewards reading.[2]

”

Thank you Barack Obama, A**h***. RobS^{De Plorabus Unum} 04:50, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Good grief. The "civilizational fault line" runs right through Russia, too, which you'd know if you weren't such a rotten student of history. Pretty much its entire 18th and 19th centuries can be described as a back-and-forth between an Enlightenment-inspired desire to modernise and a reactionary conservative Slav-ism. It's even possible to see echoes of the schism in Trotsky's expansionist revolutionary ideal vs. Stalin's inward-looking "socialism in one country".

And whilst we're talking about Stalin, you seem oblivious to such trifles as the Ukrainian famine / genocide of 1932-33, which offers a perfectly good rationale for WWII Ukrainian nationalist sentiment without any need to invoke fascist rabble-rousing. Couple that with the general brutality of life under the Soviet regime and it's difficult to understand how an avowed anti-communist like yourself can be so blithely dismissive of ordinary Ukrainians' desire to be free of Soviet / Russian influence.

Were there fascist collaborators in WWII? Sure. Just like there were fascist collaborators in every other country the Nazis invaded. Are there fascist / neo-Nazi groups in Ukraine today? Sure. Just like there are fascist / neo-Nazi groups everywhere else, including America. Are these groups representative of the general population? Of course not, and no sane person would claim otherwise.

I'll note once again the hilarity of watching you faithfully parrot Russian talking points on Ukraine: an erstwhile scourge of the Reds, now playing the useful idiot for Putin because it suits your newfound enthusiasm for US isolationism. JohnZ (talk) 23:24, 24 November 2019 (EST)

Ukrainian Nazis

Although there are numerous sources for this, in the film Shoah about the holocaust, eyewitness testimony about transports arriving at the Treblinka extermination camp (with 12,000 to 15,000 victims daily) claim there were typically only 4 German guards, 10 Ukrainians, and a few Latvians who unloaded the trains and herded the victims to the extermination site. Ukrainian Nazis were considered the most cruel and enthusiastic about their work. These facts have long been hidden from American audiences, is one integral fact of Ukrainian-Russian tensions since WWII, and has been exploited by the CIA ever since. Support for Ukrainian Nazis is core of the Obama and Biden regimes' policy toward Ukraine. The Soviet Union and Russian Federation have never been able to stomp out Ukrainian fascism the way they did in East Germany and other Soviet satellites. RobS^{Let's Go Brandon!} 14:49, February 13, 2022 (EST)

Adding this map

Bolshevik borders of Ukraine.

Hello, I think this map should be added since it follows the format of other countries in Conservapedia. It contains disputed regions as disputed.--CatolicoAustral (talk) 10:56, May 11, 2022 (EDT)

That maps no good. RobS^Z 11:27, May 11, 2022 (EDT)

This article contains many unsourced claims about Ukraine.

Like being "installed in a coup in 2014 by the Obama administration" among other things. And has too much Putin bias while demonizing Ukraine. There is too much ti clean up. Can someone do it for me? Knowstuff (talk) 22:07, July 27, 2022 (EDT)

What is "Putin bias," pray tell? and how does it differ from anti-Putinism or Russophobia? RobS^Z+ 22:41, July 27, 2022 (EDT)

You can criticize Putin without being Russophobic. I have yet to hear a good explanation for how it is not Russophobic to think the Russians were too stupid to realize that the USA did not switch sides at the end of World War II. MayGodBless (talk) 19:53, October 9, 2023 (EDT)

The map

The map is completely inaccurate. Show me one country that recognizes the boarders as the legal boarders of Ukraine. MayGodBless (talk) 19:50, October 9, 2023 (EDT)

Decomumnization

Decommunization refers to removing people from government offices and positions of influence in society, not just tearing down statues. This should be clarified.

Decommunization never occurred in the former East German territories; in fact the former East German communist party was invited into a power sharing agreement as Die Linke. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 13:16, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

The term itself is used in this case to refer to the removal of symbols and statues like this papers suggests: [3] something cultural, not related to the removal of people. I know it can be used in the other way that you say but not in the case its explained here, and yes, Ukraine has had a better process than in Germany which should follow a similar path of removing all Marxist symbols and statues from public spaces.--CatolicoAustral (talk) 13:22, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Yes, by "removal of people" the reference should be people from positions of power and influence, which occurred to a limited extent in the de-nazification process in the Western sectors of Germany after 1945, and to a more thorough extent in the Eastern sector. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 13:56, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

As to the extremists tearing down the Lenin statue, we shouldn't be glorifying violent extremists as "heroes" any more than CP glorifies Black Lives Matter for the same activity. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 14:56, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

As to this quote: "A Counter Terrorism Policing official told BBC News: "Unfortunately, far-right groups have a history of misappropriating national symbols as part of their identity and this is the reason why some national flags and symbols appear in our document".

This inclusion corroborates User:Conservative's contention, documented in several of his Essays, that Nazism and fascism is indeed "rightwing". RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 15:14, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Ambiguity of the term "Ukrainian"

A "Ukrainian" citizen is an ambiguous term. Many ethnic Russians were and still are Ukrainian citizens, as well as Hungarians, etc. who do not even speak Slavic languages. We should be careful when using the term "Ukrainian". RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 13:56, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

The people who have Ukrainian Citizenship (and are Ok with it) (I'm referring to the civic term, not the ethnic) should be refered as so since its their demonym, in some cases its ok if you use other words to describe specific situations like in the image. For example, a person from East Russia which ethnically is different from someone from Moscow is referred also as Russian since its his or her citizenship (its not related to something ethnic).--CatolicoAustral (talk) 14:04, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

The problem for example is, Ukrainians burnt alive Ukrainians in the Odessa Trade Unions House massacre. We need to end this deliberate ambiguity in Western MSM.

The victims were ethnic Russians; the perps were US-funded Ukrainian nazis. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 14:08, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

But the thing is, nationality is defined by a civic thing, not ethnic, you can argue some people don't like to be part of a country and don't feel identification with that civic nationality having ethnic reasons, but, if we see nationality only with ethnic lens many countries wouldn't be unified at all. The American Citizenship for example is also defined in that civic way, independent of the origins, if the law qualifies you to be an American, you are one, without consideration of the ethnicity of the person.--CatolicoAustral (talk) 14:37, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

That may be true in US terms, but Americans can be incredibly naive about such things, opening themselves up to exploitation by MSM and globalists to fight wars they shouldn't be involved in.

The simple fact is, the US-backed coup turned ethnic Russians into second class citizens in their country of birth. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 14:46, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Here's what the article needs to convey: the Russian Orthodox Church, including congregants in Ukraine, fought long and hard to free themselves from Communism - which was an alien ideology imported into Russia from the West and Germany - only now not to be re-enslaved by Western globalists and fascist oligarchs.

The notion that Vladimir Putin is trying to recreate the Soviet Union or Russian Empire is Western globalist propaganda.

The so-called "separatists" of Donbas, who agreed to remain in Ukraine under the Minsk Accords, is a prime example of the Western MSM globalist propaganda and brainwashing over the past 10 years. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 16:16, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Of course it is important to not fall into US Deep State propaganda, but also is important to not fall into Kremlim propaganda as well, both are partialized, and the topic is more complex and has a lot of history and debates around. Greetings!--CatolicoAustral (talk) 17:45, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Well yes. In most cases, including Conservapedia, readers are not exposed to Kremlin propaganda due the undemocratic censorship in Western societies. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 17:49, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Of course, also, it is not true that Trump is like 100% aligned with Putin as the Leftist Media say in general, here is an example of that [4].--CatolicoAustral (talk) 17:54, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Water under the dam. Conservapedia already has too much neo-fascist hate speech in mainspace and essays. It won't make an impact with American public opinion. RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 18:08, May 30, 2024 (EDT)

Roman Catholics in Ukraine

I reordered the Section of Language, religion, and culture. Roman Catholics in Ukraine are only about 10% (in fact, many are Polish and other ethnicities and not Ukrainian at all). RobS^{The Truth. Just Putin It Out There} 08:38, December 12, 2024 (EST)

Alexander Solzhenitsyn on Ukraine from the Gulag Archipelago

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

"For me this is a painful subject. Russia and the Ukraine are united in my blood, my heart, my thoughts. But from friendly contact with Ukrainians in the camps over a long period I have learned how sore they feel. Our generation cannot avoid paying for the mistakes of generations before it.

Official Maidan regime nazi propaganda posted to Twitter in 2022. It was later deleted. [1] Solzhenitsyn evidently was a liar and Soviet propagandist, and the USAID-funded Nazi propagandists spoke the truth, according to User:Conservative.

Nothing is easier than stamping your foot and shouting: “That's mine!” It is immeasurably harder to proclaim: “You may live as you please.” We cannot, in the latter end of the twentieth century, live in the imaginary world in which our last, not very bright Emperor came to grief. Surprising though it may be, the prophecy of our Vanguard Doctrine [i.e., Marxism-Leninism—Ed.] that nationalism would fade has not come true. In the age of the atom and of cybernetics, it has for some reason blossomed afresh. Like it or not, the time is at hand when we must pay out on all our promissory notes guaranteeing self-determination and independence—pay up of our own accord, and not wait to be burned at the stake, drowned in rivers, or beheaded. We must prove our greatness as a nation not by the vastness of our territory, not by the number of peoples under our tutelage, but by the grandeur of our actions. And by the depth of our tilth in the lands that remain when those who do not wish to live with us are gone.

The Ukraine will be an extremely painful problem. But we must realize that the feelings of the whole people are now at white heat. Since the two peoples have not succeeded over the centuries in living harmoniously, it is up to us to show sense. We must leave the decision to the Ukrainians themselves—let federalists and separatists try their persuasions. Not to give way would be foolhardy and cruel. And the gentler, the more tolerant, the more careful to explain ourselves we are now, the more hope there will be of restoring unity in the future.

Let them live their own lives, let them see how it works." Conservative (talk) 18:40, February 16, 2025 (EST)

It's a bit late for you now to do a little Googling, after you published about 3 dozen Russophobic screeds to make peacemaking for Donald Trump more difficult.

"Russia and the Ukraine are united in my blood, my heart, my thoughts", that sounds like Putin propaganda, which all your USAID-sourced hate screeds ridicule and deny.RobS^{I don’t really care, Margaret} 18:47, February 16, 2025 (EST)

User:Conservative: Bottomline: You went along with all the Nazi propaganda since the justifiable 2022 conflict started, despite warnings and protestations. I will be monitoring closely your editing & trolling activity on Eastern European and Slavic subjects. RobS^{I don’t really care, Margaret} 19:29, February 16, 2025 (EST)

Bottomline: I will be monitoring Russia economically/demographically decline. Conservative (talk) 13:18, July 26, 2025 (EDT)

Don't mean jack diddly when you've proven to lack the analytical skills. I'll take that as a warning of your intention NOT to cease trolling and to continue disrupting and impeding my efforts. RobS^{Zelensky Must Go!} 13:22, July 26, 2025 (EDT)

Looks like Zelensky took the bait, hook, line, and sinker

Congress gives money to the State Dept. State Dept gives money to USAID. USAID gives money to Soros' Open Society Foundations. Open Societies Foundations gives money to NABU. IOWS, NABU is how the US controls Ukraine. When Trump moved against USAID, Zelensky moved against NABU. Big mistake. RobS^{Zelensky Must Go!} 15:25, July 23, 2025 (EDT)

Actually, Zelensky attempting to take control of NABU was an attempt to regain Ukraine's independence & sovereignty, get rid of outside foreign influence, and Make Ukraine Great Again. It is backfiring big time.

So the game plan here is to oust Zelensky and replace him with someone more amenable to Trump & Putin's demands. RobS^{Zelensky Must Go!} 15:54, July 23, 2025 (EDT)

The snake is eating itself.

Bingo! Rob proven right. Andrey Telizhenko@39:48. "Zelensky took the bait to destroy NABU from his Western advisors - the bait to topple his regime". RobS^{Zelensky Must Go!} 03:19, July 29, 2025 (EDT)